New mentality for Hawks fans.

[Frenzy]

Great post i agree 100% D

[mrhonline]

By the way, the Hawks are 10-2 in their last 12 games.

The only teams with better records in their last 12? None.

Atlanta 10-2

Detroit 10-2

LA Lakers 10-2

Cleveland 9-3

Orlando 9-3

San Antonio 9-3

Right now the Hawks aren't playing nearly as well as they were at the start of the season.

Right now the Hawks aren't playing nearly as well as they were at the start of the season.

Right now the Hawks aren't playing nearly as well as they were at the start of the season.

[sturt]

Let it be noted that it was about this time last year that sturt made his self congratulatory thread to let everyone know how smart he is....

Of course the Hawks proceeded to have a dismal stretch of games thereafter and finished 7 games below .500. I don't think he was feeling too nos_sturt_damus like when the Hawks started losing 12-16 at the same time he made this thread.

ex, it's just amaaaaazing to sit here and watch you ... of ALLLLLLL people.... pontificate about ANYONE ELSE self-congratulating himself for how smart he is.

To wit...

Looks like sturt has been rendered speechless, incapable of defending his ignorance. Certainly a happy day for the board.

But if The Coward dares to show up again criticizing everyone else for their opinions while spinelessly refusing to offer his own rest assured I shut him up again.

(Just the very sharp tip of the iceberg sinking the RMS Titanic, of course.)

Never called you stupid or an idiot or, in this case, "coward." Not because I'm Mr. Nice. Rather, because it's just adolescent behavior, and it's just not necessary. If someone wants to perceive you that way, or not, the evidence is there for them to judge. There's nothing gained by making that interpretation for them, as-if anyone's looking for my evaluation of whether or not exodus is an idiot.

On the other hand, calling attention to rhetorical shell games and inconsistencies is fair game...

By the way, boys and girls, if you bother to click that link, be sure to gloss right over the "I could be wrong" line, just as ex chose to do (... aside: turns out it would have been more accurate for me to say "I could be premature," the evidence being what it is now).

Smart guy, that exodus, I tell ya.

The same smart guy who wrote just last June about how dire the situation was in ATL when Sund signed on...

Sturt isn't interested in facts. He is only interested in "the plan" but a plan and 50 cents only gets you a morning paper. When you look at the facts:

1) The Hawks won 37 games in a weak conference

2) They have $23 million invested in a pg situation that is still a mess.

3) They were 2nd to last in the NBA in perimeter shooting.

4) They have possibly the shortest starting 4/5 combo in the NBA.

5) They are capped out.

6) They have no draft picks this year.

7) Their bench is lame.

All of this has to be laid at the feet of BK.

Nothing positive came from those BK years, I tell ya. (*Sgt Shultz voice*)... I see nothing... NOTHing.

This franchise was headed nowhere for seven, count-em, factual reasons that no one can argue.

Thank God Sund is pulling the strings.... er... wait... correct that...

Thank God ASG is pulling the strings of Sund as their dopey hand puppet.

I swear, we are blessed with the offspring of King Solomon and Andrew Dice Clay right here on our forum.

Ya know, ex, I guess I should take it as a compliment that you have selected me, the commonest schlep of all common schleps (no kidding), to have gained so much of your limited time and charitable attention.

You could be spending your time advising Obama on the economic crisis, could be negotiating a peace deal between Hamas and Israel, could be commanding rain to fall on all of the places in the South still suffering from drought.

But no.

You're here, and we're all grateful for that. There's nothing more certain than that.

Correction. The one thing that is more certain is that this post WILL get a reply.

(Yank #79... and counting.)

Have at it. I won't return fire. I jumped into this thread very innocently for those who really CAN put two and two together... and I'm just bored with you and your unrelenting hyper-defensiveness. I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but you may very possibly be the most joy-less person I've ever come into contact with in my life.

(Oops. My bad. There I go playing psychologist again.)

Edited January 6, 2009 by sturt

[High5]

No doubt we have a lot of crappy "fans." I'm all for being realistic, but a few people on here are negative just to be negative. The dumbest part is a lot of their criticisms are completely untrue. Whatever, I just feel sorry for them. While I'm enjoying my Hawks being 22-11, they're in misery because we're not 33-0.

[Diesel]

So 22-11 isn't proof enough?

No.

Childress leaving had nothing to do with Bibby becoming healthy or with Bibby being able to attend camp, work out with Mark Price and shot over 40% from three.

Moreover, if you want to use a meaningless comparison, more telling is the fact that

Against the Celts last year in the playoffs we were 3-4 with Chillz.

Against the Celts this year we are 0-3 without him.

If it were possible to trade Chillz for Mo and Flip, we would be a better team!

[Diesel]

All I'm saying, and I think Diesel would actually agree with me, is that there's no guarantee that the Hawks will win next year, or the rest of this year for that matter.

I am enjoying the winning right now, no matter how imperfect.

"Losing sucks" is a truism, but it's been far TOO true here until this season...

I agree.

After years of losing and almost being out of it by this time.. and talk of the draft by this time, you would think that the fan base would be excited and behind the hawks. However that fear of success makes some just find something new to complain about. I mean, are we really complaining about turnovers when we're 11th in the league in turnovers per. I think the word that comes to mind is Frivolous. So what... Smoove makes Boneheaded turnovers, he makes less of them this year than he did last...and we're winning.

We have some sensitive FA matters going on in the offseason. Teams around us are getting Better.. Hell, even the Knicks.... it's no guarantee that we will ever be in this position again.

I lived through the complaining about a team with Deke, Smitty, and Mookie coached by Lenny Wilkens that couldn't make it past the 2nd round of the playoffs and fans of the Hawks saying.. That team should be blown up and we need to start over. We did that. Deke went on to lead the 76ers to the finals. Smitty went on to get a championship ring. And the Hawks have taken about 10 years to recover...I don't think we had a winning season since.

The take home message that I gained from that experience is take nothing for granted. Seems that many Hawks fans still don't get it... Especially when all they can do is complain about TOs and arena attendance (in a recession).

[exodus]

ex, it's just amaaaaazing to sit here and watch you ... of ALLLLLLL people.... pontificate about ANYONE ELSE self-congratulating himself for how smart he is.

To wit...

(Just the very sharp tip of the iceberg sinking the RMS Titanic, of course.)

Never called you stupid or an idiot or, in this case, "coward." Not because I'm Mr. Nice. Rather, because it's just adolescent behavior, and it's just not necessary. If someone wants to perceive you that way, or not, the evidence is there for them to judge. There's nothing gained by making that interpretation for them, as-if anyone's looking for my evaluation of whether or not exodus is an idiot.

On the other hand, calling attention to rhetorical shell games and inconsistencies is fair game...

By the way, boys and girls, if you bother to click that link, be sure to gloss right over the "I could be wrong" line, just as ex chose to do (... aside: turns out it would have been more accurate for me to say "I could be premature," the evidence being what it is now).

Smart guy, that exodus, I tell ya.

The same smart guy who wrote just last June about how dire the situation was in ATL when Sund signed on...

Nothing positive came from those BK years, I tell ya. (*Sgt Shultz voice*)... I see nothing... NOTHing.

This franchise was headed nowhere for seven, count-em, factual reasons that no one can argue.

Thank God Sund is pulling the strings.... er... wait... correct that...

Thank God ASG is pulling the strings of Sund as their dopey hand puppet.

I swear, we are blessed with the offspring of King Solomon and Andrew Dice Clay right here on our forum.

Ya know, ex, I guess I should take it as a compliment that you have selected me, the commonest schlep of all common schleps (no kidding), to have gained so much of your limited time and charitable attention.

You could be spending your time advising Obama on the economic crisis, could be negotiating a peace deal between Hamas and Israel, could be commanding rain to fall on all of the places in the South still suffering from drought.

But no.

You're here, and we're all grateful for that. There's nothing more certain than that.

Correction. The one thing that is more certain is that this post WILL get a reply.

(Yank #79... and counting.)

Have at it. I won't return fire. I jumped into this thread very innocently for those who really CAN put two and two together... and I'm just bored with you and your unrelenting hyper-defensiveness. I don't know if I speak for anyone else, but you may very possibly be the most joy-less person I've ever come into contact with in my life.

(Oops. My bad. There I go playing psychologist again.)

LOL @ you of all people mentioning shell games and then proceeding to do the exact same thing. I guess you are just using Diesels tactic of making stuff up and then pretending it is true.

I guess i should probably explain that pointing out BK's many failures is far different from saying nothing positive (like Smith and JJ) happened during BK's tenure. But of course i don't expect you to let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. You never have in the past so why start now?

[exodus]

By the way, the Hawks are 10-2 in their last 12 games.

The only teams with better records in their last 12? None.

Atlanta 10-2

Detroit 10-2

LA Lakers 10-2

Cleveland 9-3

Orlando 9-3

San Antonio 9-3

How many teams had a better record than the Hawks after 6 games?

At that time the Hawks were doing a far better job on the boards than the are now. the Hawks have been killed on the boards the last two games. They were playing much better defensively.

The have gotten a lot of close wins over teams missing key starters but that doesn't change the fact that their play has slipped.

[exodus]

No.

Childress leaving had nothing to do with Bibby becoming healthy or with Bibby being able to attend camp, work out with Mark Price and shot over 40% from three.

Moreover, if you want to use a meaningless comparison, more telling is the fact that

Against the Celts last year in the playoffs we were 3-4 with Chillz.

Against the Celts this year we are 0-3 without him.

If it were possible to trade Chillz for Mo and Flip, we would be a better team!

Huh? I didn't realize we had played the Celtics 3 times already.

How did we do against the Celtics during the regular season last year?

[Diesel]

Huh? I didn't realize we had played the Celtics 3 times already.

How did we do against the Celtics during the regular season last year?

That's irrelevant. Bibby was either not on the team or not up to speed when we played the Celts last regular season.

You want to compare this years games with games against the Celts when we played Lue??

Again, you are the master of frivolousness.

Point is...

Situations were not the same. So comparing RECORDS... is meaningless.

It's like saying having Marvin is better than in his prime because our record now is better than it was when Nique played. That's basically what you sound like.

[exodus]

That's irrelevant. Bibby was either not on the team or not up to speed when we played the Celts last regular season.

You want to compare this years games with games against the Celts when we played Lue??

Again, you are the master of frivolousness.

Point is...

Situations were not the same. So comparing RECORDS... is meaningless.

It's like saying having Marvin is better than in his prime because our record now is better than it was when Nique played. That's basically what you sound like.

LOL you sure come up with some crazy stuff. That sentence should be taken out back and shot.

"having Marvin is better than in his prime"......Huh?

You do realize that Childress played with Bibby, right? All the other starters are the same as last year. Nique played here over a decade ago.

[NineOhTheRino]

I sense a little tension between you two.

[exodus]

I sense a little tension between you two.

Actually Diesel and I don't argue even half as much as we used to. he is just having trouble letting childress go.

[NineOhTheRino]

Actually Diesel and I don't argue even half as much as we used to. he is just having trouble letting childress go.

We all have to move on. Listen to the piece Childress did on 790 last year. He talked about how he thought he was more than a bench player. He also made several references to having more leverage as a player. Did he sound like a guy that was looking forward to being a Hawk? Josh got his wish so to suggest that his leaving was the result of poor management is not fair to the Hawks. He’s happy and Hawks are winning so enough said.

[High5]

No.

Childress leaving had nothing to do with Bibby becoming healthy or with Bibby being able to attend camp, work out with Mark Price and shot over 40% from three.

Moreover, if you want to use a meaningless comparison, more telling is the fact that

Against the Celts last year in the playoffs we were 3-4 with Chillz.

Against the Celts this year we are 0-3 without him.

If it were possible to trade Chillz for Mo and Flip, we would be a better team!

I'd waste my time telling you how dumb this post was if I didn't think you already knew. I wish people could argue their points without being ridiculous and just making stuff up.

[mrhonline]

I wish people could argue their points without being ridiculous and just making stuff up.

Funny stuff.

[sturt]

At the risk that the pharmacy is still working on filling that Hyzaar prescription, or even that you haven't bothered to check in to that yet...

LOL @ you of all people mentioning shell games and then proceeding to do the exact same thing. I guess you are just using Diesels tactic of making stuff up and then pretending it is true.

I guess i should probably explain that pointing out BK's many failures is far different from saying nothing positive (like Smith and JJ) happened during BK's tenure. But of course i don't expect you to let the facts get in the way of your rhetoric. You never have in the past so why start now?

(1) Is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain what it is you consider to be "making stuff up?" (... that is, within the context of the current thread, and preferably the immediate post made to which this post was a reply, since it only stands to reason that that is what you were talking about when you wrote it... this way, no one can accuse you of playing shell games... but as long as the term "shell game" turned up again...)

(2a) Is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain the mental process that you took in leaping FROM... (a) the previous discussion (#41) about your presumptuous overreaction to my initial post (#8) that, at least it would seem from the one third party's post (#48), clearly was not directed at any particular person... TO... (b) a completely unrelated discussion you began (#53), evidently motivated by a perceived need to justify yourself given that third party post, targeting to gun down a post I made a year ago...

...AND THUS, (2b) is it "returning fire" to ask you to explain how YOU would define a shell game if in fact that is NOT one, and if in fact, given that definition, there is some example of it in this thread authored by someone under the user ID "sturt?"

(3) Is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain just how "far" is "far different" between "pointing out BK's many failures" and suggesting that the current team would never rise above being average at-best without Sund doing something significant (that is, the same Sund who you considered to be ASG's puppet, which is, the same ASG you considered to be incompetent?)...?

(Aside: Sorry that I missed all those counter-balance posts you apparently authored that examined all of the positives during BK's tenure... my bad for misinterpreting you. You're much more level-headed than I'd given you credit, I guess.)

4) Finally, is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain further the accusations that, apparently, I (and DEFINITELY NOT you) am the one engaged in clever "rhetoric instead of facts"--particularly in light of the point that the previous post makes clever rhetorical allegations, but now, since they were left unstated, you are being asked to supply facts to support those allegations...?

Pardon me, but I'm only asking, okay? If it is considered "returning fire," just say so, and I'll leave it alone.

And just so there is no misunderstanding... I continue to agree with a lot of what you are saying about the current team, as demonstrated in a previous post in the thread.

I'm only asking questions to help me, and I'm sure anyone else who might be trying to follow your logic, recognize the substance of the accusations you've made.

Hopefully, that is not taken defensively, and not taken as "returning fire" so much as it is just asking for better support of your charges so that we all can see how right you are. (Not as-if anyone doubts that, of course... just desiring your kindness and indulgence in blessing me with greater information so as to eliminate my pathetic ignorance.)

Edited January 6, 2009 by sturt

[exodus]

You try to hide your nonsense with long winded posts. Sorry but it doesn't work. If you had a legit point you wouldn't have to dance around it.

(a) the previous discussion (#41) about your presumptuous overreaction to my initial post (#8) that, at least it would seem from the one third party's post (#48), clearly was not directed at any particular person...

If you can't understand why i took your post as being at least partially directed at me when my NAME was in your post then i am speechless.

Is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain what it is you consider to be "making stuff up?"

Easy. When you said

Nothing positive came from those BK years, I tell ya. (*Sgt Shultz voice*)... I see nothing... NOTHing.

This franchise was headed nowhere for seven, count-em, factual reasons that no one can argue.

you were just making stuff up. I never said anything even remotely like that.

In fact i have repeatedly given BK credit for the JJ trade (assuming of course that the Suns would have matched), the Bibby trade and drafting Smith. Those three guys are the Hawks 3 best players currently so obviously BK didn't get everything wrong. Plus BK gets bonus points for trying to fire Woody.

It is the plethora of other blown opportunities that i have a big problem with.

And while you are trying to paint me as mister gloom and doom remember that when people here were acting like it was a travesty that Childress walked I was the one that said repeatedly that we would be a better team because of it.

4) Finally, is it considered "returning fire" if I ask you to explain further the accusations that, apparently, I (and DEFINITELY NOT you) am the one engaged in clever "rhetoric instead of facts

This goes back to your relentless defense of BK which i have no interest in regurgitating. I already linked one thread. I have been doing my best to banish thoughts of BK which would spoil the season.

I didn't even read your whole post i just skimmed it. If you are expecting me to respond to your every point don't hold your breath.

Freindly advice for your future posts: if you don't want me to respond to your posts then keep my name out of your posts.

[sturt]

You try to hide your nonsense with long winded posts. Sorry but it doesn't work. If you had a legit point you wouldn't have to dance around it.

Forgive me. I hae sinned. Perhaps you could instruct me by your example of how short a post I need to strive for... perhaps even some examples of your longest posts, just so I could understand how to be more concise in attempting a "legit point."

Would it be considered "returning fire" if I were to ask how you would know if I had a legit point or that I'm "dancing" around something(?), given that you just said you didn't read the post?

Teach me, please. These are things I need to understand, and you are my best hope.

If you can't understand why i took your post as being at least partially directed at me when my NAME was in your post then i am speechless....

Freindly advice for your future posts: if you don't want me to respond to your posts then keep my name out of your posts.

Would it be considered "returning fire" if I were to ask where this phantom "exodus" appeared in MYYYYYY original post...

That is, even though we've been over this same misinterpretation of yours about three times now... which looks to have evolved now into a curious misstatement, if not a conscious(?) one... and you still have yet to acknowledge you overreacted?

Hope I'm not overstepping my place here, but... what exactly is the problem? It's not like admitting you were wrong about the future of the franchise?...

Oh... and speaking of that...

Easy. When you said (Schultz, "I see nothing")

you were just making stuff up. I never said anything even remotely like that.

Yes... you've got me on that one... my very bad attempt at humor. Indeed, I'm not even sure that Sgt. Schultz is still alive, let alone a Hawks fan. (*wink*)

But more to the actual point...

Would it be considered "returning fire" if I were to ask for your definition of "remotely?" For instance, if you were to have said something like, "BK is to blame for the fact that this team will never be anything more than average, at-best," would you say that IS OR IS NOT "REMOTELY like that?"

I'm REALLY interested to get this explanation, btw... I fear I've been misled by this HawkSquawk phantasm that is wreaking havoc--inserting the word "exodus" where I can't see it, but you say it's there, and inserting the word "exodus" where you can't see it, but I coulda sworn it was there....

Real mystery. Thank you in advance for clearing this up for me.

This goes back to your relentless defense of BK which i have no interest in regurgitating.

What does? My original post? The clarifications I just asked for? Would it be considered "returning fire" to ask you WHO brought up the name Billy Knight in a thread that had nothing to do with Billy Knight?

I didn't even read your whole post i just skimmed it. If you are expecting me to respond to your every point don't hold your breath.

No, no.... this is just fine, it really is...

I think you just answered EVERY question with this one remark. I'm pretty sure we ALL understand the situation for what it is now.

You are very kind. Thanks, have a nice night, and please don't let us keep you from your work to find the cure for cancer... that's much more important.

Edited January 7, 2009 by sturt

[exodus]

Would it be considered "returning fire" if I were to ask where this phantom "exodus" appeared in MYYYYYY original post...

That is, even though we've been over this same misinterpretation of yours about three times now... which looks to have evolved now into a curious misstatement, if not a conscious(?) one... and you still have yet to acknowledge you overreacted?

I guess you don't even read your own posts. I have directed you to it several times already but i guess, given that you are a special case, i shouldn't have bothered.

Here it is;

QUOTE (hawkman @ Jan 5 2009, 05:17 PM)

Ex, you started a thread entitled,

That is the first line of the post you quoted. In case you didn't know Ex is frequently used to refer to me.

"BK is to blame for the fact that this team will never be anything more than average, at-best,"

No, that is another reach.

BK blew the chance to add legit stars to this team through the draft. He blew the chance to trade for the type of defensive center (Nene) that this team badly needs.

If this team had just one of Paul, Deron, Roy, Nene this is a completely different team.

What does? My original post? The clarifications I just asked for? Would it be considered "returning fire" to ask you WHO brought up the name Billy Knight in a thread that had nothing to do with Billy Knight?

If you want me to bring up your posting history of fact avoidace then i would have to pull up your old posts. Since all of your posts were about BK I would have to revisit the same arguments we have had over and over and over which i am not interested in.

I have never been reluctant to argue but frankly i am tired of the BK arguments. he is gone.

Instead i am going to throw you a curveball. Since all you have ever posted about is BK, who i couldn't stand, i think you have a completely warped opinion of my posting history. So i am going to post about the things i feel BK did right. I suggest you make sure you are securely in your seat so you won't fall off and hurt yourself. I am also going to be long winded which you would probably like.

1) Blowing up the roster. I was all for this. the team he inherited was overpaid, underachieving and it would have been pointless to try to improve on it. Better to blow it up and start over. I do wish he had done a better job tanking in the 03/04 season though.

2) the JJ trade. The only time i had seen JJ play was in the playoffs with the Suns. He looked like a good player to me, but that's all. When BK made the trade to the Suns i was against it. i didn't think JJ was a max player but i understood that we would have to overpay to bring in a quality FA. But i didn't like the idea of giving up 2 draft picks and the thought of him playing the point was absurd. I just wanted the Hawks to make the offer and dare them to match.

JJ sucked his first month here. the pg experiment was a total failure. JJ was pressing, trying to do too much, shooting poorly and throwing the ball away all the time. I was like all this fuss about this guy? Then one day that winter the light came on with JJ and he started playing like the JJ we see now. I was like Whoa this guy can play. After watching him play like himself for a few games i had seen enough and haven't criticized the trade since.

Since that time my belief in JJ hasn't wavered. it is annoying to me how some here still can't give him props though.

So did BK know how good he really was or did he just get lucky? Given that BK went balls to the wall to get him i think it would be a reach to think he didn't see something special in JJ. It should also be noted that other GMs definitely dropped the ball with JJ.

The Suns were stupid for letting him go. I would argue that letting JJ go cost them a legit chance at a title. I have no idea whether they would have matched or not if we hadn't aggreed to the trade. I do know that if they had it to do over again there is no way they trade JJ, whose jersey is hanging about 5 feet from where i am sitting right now. Given how good JJ turned out to be i can understand why BK

The Cavs had the caproom to make a max offer for a sidekick for Lebron. They offered a max deal to Redd who turned them down. Then they made a big offer to Hughes who accepted. As far as i know they made no offer to JJ. I guess they believed JJ wasn't as good as those two (ha) or they believed the word out of the Suns camp that JJ wasn't available.

How good would the Cavs be with JJ? What would our team look like right now with Hughes (who was unrestricted) instead of JJ?

3) Bibby. At the time of the trade I was like this is a good deal even if Bibby turns out to be washed up. We gave up crap to get him and his deal is expiring. If he played well then great. If he didn't then his contract would be a useful trading chip. I didn't see any downside to this deal.

I wasn't too impressed with Bibby last year. However he was coming off a hand injury and then hurt his foot as soon as he started playing with us so i didn't make a big issue of his play.

However when he got off to a slow start this year i was like please i don't want to see more of this. Then he (in the words of a frustrated Raps fan) "nuked" the Raps from 3 the first time we played them. He hasn't stopped dropping the 3 bombs since. He is 2nd in the league in 3 pointers made shooting a scorching 44.6% from 3. Funny thing is that he was 0-6 from three in his first game this year.

He had a reputation as a clutch shooter in Sactown and that has certainly been in evidence here. So, like the JJ trade, this deal has worked out to be pretty much the best case scenario.

4) Smith. If the 2004 draft was held over again Smith would certainly go top 6. Getting a talent like Smith with the 17 pick is a huge score. His talent, heart and total lack of fear make him a game changer.

Having said that i have never been more frustrated by a player i actually like. his complete lack of basketball iq has me yelling at the screen when he refuses to box out, jacks up a 3 or tries to lead the break. While i dismiss any trade scenario involving Smith much of my griping this year has been directed at him.

As far as this years team goes i believed before the season that they could have a winning record. I actually predicted 42 wins for last years team and i believed this years team was better. But after this start i now believe they have a legit chance at a 50 win season which i would have said was unthinkable before the season. But in order to do that they need to play much smarter than they are now.