New mentality for Hawks fans.

[Diesel]

Some while ago, I stated that many Hawks fans had a welfare mentality.

That was 3 years ago and some things have changed. Namely, we are better now. Hell, we are one of the best teams in the East. We have finally gotten to that place where we are not trying to restart. I guess part of that change was finally getting a PG in here... it makes us a win now team instead of a wait, wait, wait team.

However, with a newness to the team, there's also a newness to the fans. What I would call a Fear of Success Mentality.

We are all familiar with the fear of Failure. That's the guy who won't try because they are afraid that they will fail.

Well, Fear of Success is similar.

Fear of success is the belief that you are undeserving of all the good things and recognition that come your way as a result of your accomplishments and successes.

You have seen this fear of success crop it's head up all over the board lately. We are 15-2 at home.. However, you let some tell it, they can give all sorts of reasons why we are not as good as 15-2 states. Uhm, Uhm, Uhm... we beat Detroit on a bad night. We beat ________________ because they were tired.

It's an 82 game season. So far, we have won and looked dominate in most of our games. Anybody who watched us play Detroit had to recognize that they were thoroughly defeated. Iverson didn't even want to play the last 2 minutes of the game.

So why is it that there is a faction of fans who don't want to accept our success? I think that the negativity exists because they don't know anything else. We are proving that we are as good as the elite of the league and there is a faction of fans who try to find the ills of our team. Are we really arguing about how many fans come out and watch the Hawks? Is it really something to talk about? Are we really arguing about if we should have done better without Smoove? When you consider that it took Paul Pierce hitting a last second three pointer to beat us in Boston when Smoove was not playing... it should make you think.. Damn.. We're pretty good.

Sure, there's some guys who we would love to have right now. I would love to have Kaman or Bynum or Aldridge or anybody who could play Center and be a force.. but we don't have that right now... Still that doesn't mean that all is lost.

Let's get the fear of success away from here and be happy when the wins roll in.

[mrhonline]

Wow. I was going to post a similar thread in the next few days.

Not only did you beat me to it, you did a much better job than I would have.

[frosgrim]

I agree, there are no excuses for winning at the rate that the Hawks are winning. Have the Hawks played some teams that had injuries? Sure, but then again, we've had injuries.

Have the Hawks played teams on the backend of a b2b, yes, but we have won on the back end of those as well: Cleveland & Houston of all teams.

The facts are that the Hawks are a terrific home team and are still a little lost on the road. Time and maturity will handle the road, IMO.

[exodus]

It's an 82 game season. So far, we have won and looked dominate in most of our games.

No, the Hawks havent looked dominant in most of their games. In fact they have rarely looked dominant. Most of their games have still been in doubt until the final minutes.

The Houston game came down to a late 3 even though they were missing McGrady, Artest and Battier. It seems like people forget the hawks were 3 games over .500 by Christmas last season. They proceeded to lost 12 of their next 16 and finished the season 7 games under .500.

The Hawks are making way too many stupid turnovers every game. They are doing a horrible job on the defensive glass every game. If those things dont change the Hawks record is going to take a hit. They can't rely on late 3s to bail them out all season.

At one point last year the Blazers won 16 straight games. They finished at .500. There are no sure things in the NBA.

[hawkman]

No, the Hawks havent looked dominant in most of their games. In fact they have rarely looked dominant. Most of their games have still been in doubt until the final minutes.

The Houston game came down to a late 3 even though they were missing McGrady, Artest and Battier. It seems like people forget the hawks were 3 games over .500 by Christmas last season. They proceeded to lost 12 of their next 16 and finished the season 7 games under .500.

The Hawks are making way too many stupid turnovers every game. They are doing a horrible job on the defensive glass every game. If those things dont change the Hawks record is going to take a hit. They can't rely on late 3s to bail them out all season.

At one point last year the Blazers won 16 straight games. They finished at .500. There are no sure things in the NBA.

Ex, you started a thread entitled, "The Hawks Are A Dumb Team", right after we beat Houston. But it's not just you, there's been quite a few over the top negative threads about the Hawks and Hawks players. What I find strange is how negative things have gotten around here since we started winning. It actually seems a little worse around here now that we're winning than it did when we sucked. At least there was always some optimism over free agents, the draft, and player improvement. Now all that covers the front page is someone griping about the Hawks over something. Even the in-game chat is infected with it. I can't call it trolling because the guys who are doing it are actually long time Hawk fans. It's like this board is a portal to some bizarro universe or something. :computer8:

[BusBoyIsBack]

6-0 start could be considered a fluke but at some point when you are 15-2 at home, it cannot be considered a fluke anymore.

I believe we are also 16-5 with Josh Smith.

That type of win percentage is right up there with the big boys

Edited January 5, 2009 by BusBoyIsBack

[exodus]

Ex, you started a thread entitled, "The Hawks Are A Dumb Team", right after we beat Houston. But it's not just you, there's been quite a few over the top negative threads about the Hawks and Hawks players. What I find strange is how negative things have gotten around here since we started winning. It actually seems a little worse around here now that we're winning than it did when we sucked. At least there was always some optimism over free agents, the draft, and player improvement. Now all that covers the front page is someone griping about the Hawks over something. Even the in-game chat is infected with it. I can't call it trolling because the guys who are doing it are actually long time Hawk fans. It's like this board is a portal to some bizarro universe or something. :computer8:

So are you trying to tell me that the Hawks don't make too many dumb turnovers every game? Are you trying to tell me that they do a good job boxing out?

I didn't think so. It is funny how simple minded some fans are. As long as the Hawks win a game it doesn't matter how they actually played. It doesn't matter how many starters from the opposing team were out. All that matters is the W.

But then when those same mistakes cause the hawks to blow a 20 pt lead (against a healthy starting 5) those same people act like it was some sort of anomoly. It wasn't. When you play dumb basketball you will lose games that you should win. Games like that are going to become more frequent if the Hawks don't clean up their play.

[sturt]

Ex, you started a thread entitled, "The Hawks Are A Dumb Team", right after we beat Houston. But it's not just you, there's been quite a few over the top negative threads about the Hawks and Hawks players. What I find strange is how negative things have gotten around here since we started winning. It actually seems a little worse around here now that we're winning than it did when we sucked. At least there was always some optimism over free agents, the draft, and player improvement. Now all that covers the front page is someone griping about the Hawks over something. Even the in-game chat is infected with it. I can't call it trolling because the guys who are doing it are actually long time Hawk fans. It's like this board is a portal to some bizarro universe or something. :computer8:

It's no mystery here.

People stake out positions, and they stake out an online personality of sorts... kind of like someone in the class has to take on the class clown role, someone else takes on the badass-dont-mess-with-me role, others take on the Mr. Popularity role... etc.

When what someone said was going to happen doesn't happen, they tend to get a little defensive... needing to defend the position they take. For others, it's simply a matter that they enjoy the role of Master Critic of the Universe, and are always looking for an angle that no one else brought up. (To be straight up, I have seen myself in that role sometimes, too, but I also crave the balanced voice-of-reason role.)

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is, Democrats won't be criticizing Republicans any less just because they have seized some success recently, and more to the point, Republicans most definitely will not be criticizing Democrats any less. Everyone likes to be "right," so in this case, that means that the Eeyores are even more driven to push their message and drown out the Tiggers.

That's my take, fwiw.

[HawkItus]

eh, the Hawks just aren't a great team. Plain and simple. We are very good though. Until we get one more nightly all-star we will continue to lose some of the close games we should win.

[exodus]

It's no mystery here.

People stake out positions, and they stake out an online personality of sorts... kind of like someone in the class has to take on the class clown role, someone else takes on the badass-dont-mess-with-me role, others take on the Mr. Popularity role... etc.

When what someone said was going to happen doesn't happen, they tend to get a little defensive... needing to defend the position they take. For others, it's simply a matter that they enjoy the role of Master Critic of the Universe, and are always looking for an angle that no one else brought up. (To be straight up, I have seen myself in that role sometimes, too, but I also crave the balanced voice-of-reason role.)

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is, Democrats won't be criticizing Republicans any less just because they have seized some success recently, and more to the point, Republicans most definitely will not be criticizing Democrats any less. Everyone likes to be "right," so in this case, that means that the Eeyores are even more driven to push their message and drown out the Tiggers.

That's my take, fwiw.

I have been here all season cheering the Hawks on while the big critics like Walter and Troy have been conspicuously absent. I was high as a kite when the Hawks were 6-0 and have reveled in their success all season. In case you forgot i was the one who said repeatedly last summer that the Hawks would be better off without Childress.

I was here defending Marvin in preseason when the word got out that he was working on his 3 pointers and some mocked him because they shooting drill he was doing was "too easy" (no i am not making this up). I have been here defending JJ when people ignore his big games but love to revel in his mistakes.

But basketball is still the same game it has always been. Winning teams do certain things well consistently. Taking care of the ball and boxing out are two fundamental qualities of winning teams. They can be done well every night. Shooting, on the other hand, comes and goes even for the best shooters.

The hawks success has so far depended too heavily on long perimeter shots. If they don't clean up their turnovers and start boxing out it is going to cost them.

of course you would know nothing about any of this since i know you don't watch the games.

[Peoriabird]

Let's get the fear of success away from here and be happy when the wins roll in.

And this is coming from someone who proposed trades as late as a week ago after the Denver game. Would you trade our MVP for Carmello Anthony thread. This is a weird fan base period!

[DrReality]

Dealing with this issue is part of the journey. Getting beyond this and accepting that it is a thought in the mind. One that can be a huge obstacle when you give it too much attention.

"What is doubt but a string of words in the mind." J Goldstein

This is part of maturity.

[Gray Mule]

I agree with both sides of this discussion. Wow! How tough is that!

Are the Hawks a good team? Yes. Check the record for proof.

If the Hawks weren't a good team, the record would certainly

quickly point that out to us.

Are the Hawks a great team? Nope. We still have flaws. Many flaws.

The great thing about these flaws, most of them are things that can

be corrected. We can become a much better team.

I'm still in somewhat of a shock after our last win. Sure, it took a

last second shot to pull it out when our opponent had players

missing. Sounds familiar. Celtics could tell that same story. They

had to have a last second shot when Josh was out. Same story,

different teams.

Marvin Williams missed our last game. The shocker? Two of our

bench players, usually both designated, dnp-Coaches Decision,

actually played meaningful minutes in this game AND that did

not cost us a win. Solomon and Acie did their job.

Woody keeps saying he'll play more bench players and rest the

starters. Actions speek louder than words. Will he?? Good question.

:no-no:

[exodus]

Are the Hawks a great team? Nope. We still have flaws. Many flaws.

The great thing about these flaws, most of them are things that can

be corrected. We can become a much better team.

The problem is that i see no signs that the Hawks are even trying to correct them. Smith had 5 turnovers in each of the previous two games then proceeds to turn it over on a behind the back pass in traffic on the very first play against Houston. Then he starts barking at Horford as if it was Horford's fault that it was a turnover.

Horford and Zaza are notorious for travels and offensive fouls. It seems like the Hawks fast breaks end in turnovers almost as often as they end in field goals.

Smith got outrebounded by his man 11-2. that is just pathetic. I see no signs that the Hawks are giving any attention at all to boxing out.

[Peoriabird]

The problem is that i see no signs that the Hawks are even trying to correct them. Smith had 5 turnovers in each of the previous two games then proceeds to turn it over on a behind the back pass in traffic on the very first play against Houston. Then he starts barking at Horford as if it was Horford's fault that it was a turnover.

Horford and Zaza are notorious for travels and offensive fouls. It seems like the Hawks fast breaks end in turnovers almost as often as they end in field goals.

Smith got outrebounded by his man 11-2. that is just pathetic. I see no signs that the Hawks are giving any attention at all to boxing out.

We are guarenteed at least 3-4 offensive fouls from moving screens per game. We a guarenteed at least 2-3 stupid Smith turnovers per game. Sometimes Smith wants to rebound and sometimes he doesn't. I don't know what to do about the moving screens except to practice that stuff over and over again until we get it right. I think that when Smith has a scoring mentality, he is not interested in rebounding or man defense. But when he puts his mind to rebounding, he is a monster. Smith will have to work his rebounding problems out himself.

[exodus]

We are guarenteed at least 3-4 offensive fouls from moving screens per game. We a guarenteed at least 2-3 stupid Smith turnovers per game. Sometimes Smith wants to rebound and sometimes he doesn't. I don't know what to do about the moving screens except to practice that stuff over and over again until we get it right. I think that when Smith has a scoring mentality, he is not interested in rebounding or man defense. But when he puts his mind to rebounding, he is a monster. Smith will have to work his rebounding problems out himself.

smith's rebounding is way down this year. 7 rebounds per game from your power forward doesn't cut it. he has to box out. That should be drilled into him every day in practice. He got completely punk'd on the boards by Scola.

Of course Smith's turnovers are from trying to do too much with the ball. he needs to learn that he isn't a pg.

As far as the moving screens and travels from horford and Zaza i think this points clearly towards bad practice habits. They get away with this stuff in practice every day i am sure and so they end up doing it in games.

I think a real coach would make a huge difference in this team because their problems are so basic and obvious. People wonder why i am griping about winning but the Hawks are actually playing for something tangible now ie homecourt in the first round. However they are only a half game ahead of detroit for the 4th spot. They aren't going to hold onto the 4th spot playing the way they are now.

[Admin]

smith's rebounding is way down this year. 7 rebounds per game from your power forward doesn't cut it. he has to box out. That should be drilled into him every day in practice. He got completely punk'd on the boards by Scola.

Of course Smith's turnovers are from trying to do too much with the ball. he needs to learn that he isn't a pg.

As far as the moving screens and travels from horford and Zaza i think this points clearly towards bad practice habits. They get away with this stuff in practice every day i am sure and so they end up doing it in games.

I think a real coach would make a huge difference in this team because their problems are so basic and obvious. People wonder why i am griping about winning but the Hawks are actually playing for something tangible now ie homecourt in the first round. However they are only a half game ahead of detroit for the 4th spot. They aren't going to hold onto the 4th spot playing the way they are now.

Perhaps, but I'm not entirely convinced it would make that much of a difference. I could understand if our entire team made stupid mistakes but when you consider that about half of our team turnovers come from 2 guys (JJ and Smith) it makes me think that it's more of a product of JJ being the primary ball handler and Smith just having too many mental lapses. The moving screens with Horford and Zaza are annoying but I don't think we get called for them anymore than most teams do. I don't know if there's a stat to track that but it would be interesting to find out. I'd love to think that a new coach would get Smith to play hard the majority of the time and focus on the game but I just don't think it would make a difference. The problem is that he thinks that he's a SF and he's going to do his best to play like a SF and we can either live with it or bench him, which we obviously cannot do. I love having Smith on our team but he really messes us up since he won't play the game of a PF. Too bad we can't trade him to the T-Wolves for Al Jefferson.

[Peoriabird]

As far as the moving screens and travels from horford and Zaza i think this points clearly towards bad practice habits. They get away with this stuff in practice every day i am sure and so they end up doing it in games.

I can live with the traveling and those are down anyway. But the moving screens just have to stop now. The one thing that should jump out on film review is the percentage of turnovers that occur when Smith & Flip run the break versus everyone else. It should be clear to Woodson and the rest of the coaching staff that Smith should be filling the lane and finishing rather than dribbling and making passes!

[Admin]

I can live with the traveling and those are down anyway. But the moving screens just have to stop now. The one thing that should jump out on film review is the percentage of turnovers that occur when Smith & Flip run the break versus everyone else. It should be clear to Woodson and the rest of the coaching staff that Smith should be filling the lane and finishing rather than dribbling and making passes!

Who's to say that it's not clear to them? They may harp on it every day in practice and throughout the game. If that were the case and Smith simply choose to do his own thing or continually had mental lapses and forgot to do what he's supposed to do even though you know he has been coached the right way what would you do? Bench him or live with it knowing how much he helps the team in other areas?

Now I'm not saying that it's his fault or that Woody and the coaching staff has tried to get him to do the right thing, but I have to believe that if us casual fans can see the flaws of these players surely 1 if not all of the coaches can.

[exodus]

Perhaps, but I'm not entirely convinced it would make that much of a difference. I could understand if our entire team made stupid mistakes but when you consider that about half of our team turnovers come from 2 guys (JJ and Smith) it makes me think that it's more of a product of JJ being the primary ball handler and Smith just having too many mental lapses. The moving screens with Horford and Zaza are annoying but I don't think we get called for them anymore than most teams do. I don't know if there's a stat to track that but it would be interesting to find out. I'd love to think that a new coach would get Smith to play hard the majority of the time and focus on the game but I just don't think it would make a difference. The problem is that he thinks that he's a SF and he's going to do his best to play like a SF and we can either live with it or bench him, which we obviously cannot do. I love having Smith on our team but he really messes us up since he won't play the game of a PF. Too bad we can't trade him to the T-Wolves for Al Jefferson.

He has been doing a better job lately scoing inside. He has been posting up and driving more often. But his total unwillingness to box out kills the Hawks defensive rebounding. However nobody else boxes out either.

Since the Hawks are a jump shooting team their turnover problem doesn't look as bad on paper as it really is. you aren't going to turn it over much spotting up for a 3. It is all of the stupid, completely unforced turnovers that have cost them several games this season and will continue to cost them games unless corrected.