New mentality for Hawks fans.

[sturt]

if you go back and look at the post you quoted in your first post i think you can put two and two together. At least i hope so.

So, I'm wrong? You did not overreact? Even that is too much to acknowledge?

If you go back and look at my comment in light of the post I quoted, and the sentences that had something to do with what I said...

What I find strange is how negative things have gotten around here since we started winning. It actually seems a little worse around here now that we're winning than it did when we sucked.

...I think you can put two and two together.

At least, now, in hindsight (?).

[AHF]

Wow. Even the "New Mentality For Hawks Fans" thread has went down hill. Why does everything have to be so joyless around here? I bet I couldn't make a "Woohoo, We're 22-11!" thread without a bunch of Negative Nancies taking a huge crap on it. It's not about being simple minded, it's about looking at this season in comparison to, say oh, THE LAST 10 YEARS. Guys, there was a time when we couldn't even get the friggin ball inbounds without turning the it over for a game winning dunk or layup by the opposing team. Our go to guy was JR Friggin Rider! Matt Maloney was our starting PG! Cedric Bozeman and Matt Frieje both got significant time in our playing rotation! Those are just a few examples I can think of off the top of my head. I'm just saying that this situation is all about perspective. Just because I don't complain about the unecessary turnovers or bad shot selection doesn't mean that I don't see it too. It just means that I see those things, but I also see us overcoming our mistakes and winning which is something we didn't do before.

I am crushingly dissappointed that we aren't getting a high lottery pick. I can't believe you don't acknowledge the pain this season is causing me. :sobbing:

[Diesel]

Please show where I said they won't or cant improve their flaws.

You never did like using facts to try to make a point. It is much easier to just make something up and pretend it is a fact.

You said:

"The stupid turnovers are a Hawks trademark. They turned it over on the first possession of the game on a behind the back pass by Smith. They turned it over 3 times on the fast break in the first quarter. They turned it over the first two possessions of the second half. They just make so many dumb, completely unforced turnovers it is a joke.

In the end the Hawks were bailed out by a 3 point shot, which has so frequently been the case this year. It is hard to visualize a team this dumb winning 50 games."

The fact that you talk about our turnovers as trademark and it being hard to visualize a team this dumb winning 50 games suggests that you don't expect any change.

Show me an instance where you have said that the Hawks (not just Marvin) can change and get better. Ever?

[hawkman]

I am crushingly dissappointed that we aren't getting a high lottery pick. I can't believe you don't acknowledge the pain this season is causing me. :sobbing:

Well, we always have the great memory of picking Shelden with the 5th pick in the draft. Good times! But seriously, if we can't enjoy the games now without being called "simple minded", then when? Sometimes you just have to enjoy winning WHILE WE ARE ACTUALLY WINNING. It's just a game. Don't stress it so much.

[exodus]

You said:

"The stupid turnovers are a Hawks trademark. They turned it over on the first possession of the game on a behind the back pass by Smith. They turned it over 3 times on the fast break in the first quarter. They turned it over the first two possessions of the second half. They just make so many dumb, completely unforced turnovers it is a joke.

In the end the Hawks were bailed out by a 3 point shot, which has so frequently been the case this year. It is hard to visualize a team this dumb winning 50 games."

The fact that you talk about our turnovers as trademark and it being hard to visualize a team this dumb winning 50 games suggests that you don't expect any change.

Show me an instance where you have said that the Hawks (not just Marvin) can change and get better. Ever?

hahahaha I said the Hawks immediately got better when Childress walked. I guess you forgot.

Like i said you just like to make stuff up. Either that or you don't understand English.

i didn't say that they can't or won't change, only that they at still doing the same things wrong. you can't find anywhere where i said they can't or won't change. Bemoaning their lack of improvement is a far cry from saying they can't or won't change. Whether i expect them to change or not isn't even relevant to your accusation.

[exodus]

So, I'm wrong? You did not overreact? Even that is too much to acknowledge?

If you go back and look at my comment in light of the post I quoted, and the sentences that had something to do with what I said...

...I think you can put two and two together.

At least, now, in hindsight (?).

Given that the post you quoted was directed towards me and had my name in it i thought you would see how i would take your post as being directed towards me, at least in part. I find it pretty strange that this is confusing to you. If you hadn't quoted anyone's post then i could see your point.

[Diesel]

hahahaha I said the Hawks immediately got better when Childress walked. I guess you forgot.

No, I didn't forget it. I just don't see any proof for it being true.

The biggest factor in our success has been the play of Bibby. For all practical purposes, Mo adds nothing and Flip can be just as much a negative as a positive. He disrupts offense. There are many nights, we all wish we had an efficient scorer... Did you notice that Chillz is shooting damn near 70% over in Europe? IN the Greek league, he's at 72%... with 100% shooting against two teams (one being their rival)...

Think about that the next time you see Flip tossing up airballs.

[Admin]

Given that the post you quoted was directed towards me and had my name in it i thought you would see how i would take your post as being directed towards me, at least in part. I find it pretty strange that this is confusing to you. If you hadn't quoted anyone's post then i could see your point.

Well in his defense he didn't quote your post, he quoted a reply to you.

Sometimes I think you guys like to argue just to argue! :saythat:

[AHF]

No, I didn't forget it. I just don't see any proof for it being true.

The biggest factor in our success has been the play of Bibby. For all practical purposes, Mo adds nothing and Flip can be just as much a negative as a positive. He disrupts offense. There are many nights, we all wish we had an efficient scorer... Did you notice that Chillz is shooting damn near 70% over in Europe? IN the Greek league, he's at 72%... with 100% shooting against two teams (one being their rival)...

Think about that the next time you see Flip tossing up airballs.

Less impressive in the Euro league where he is shooting less than 50% from the floor - including 9.1% from 3pt range. He is also only hitting 56% of his FTs in Euro play. (Numbers courtesy of our latest Greek/Euro expert's update).

10.1 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 1.4 apg, .8 spg, 2.5 topg, .8 bpg

Color me unimpressed with that line.

[exodus]

Well, we always have the great memory of picking Shelden with the 5th pick in the draft. Good times! But seriously, if we can't enjoy the games now without being called "simple minded", then when? Sometimes you just have to enjoy winning WHILE WE ARE ACTUALLY WINNING. It's just a game. Don't stress it so much.

I was enjoying the games more earlier in the season than i am now. I can accept some sloppiness early in the season because historically offenses take longer to get going. But this is January and the Hawks aren't a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players any more. There is no excuse for some of the things they are doing now.

Just because they got a win against a team missing 3 of their best players doesn't excuse their poor play.

It isn't like i am asking for the moon either. It isn't that much to expect guys to box out and throw fewer passes to the opposing team or the fans.

[exodus]

No, I didn't forget it. I just don't see any proof for it being true.

:laughing5:

So 22-11 isn't proof enough?

The Hawks two calling cards this year have been perimeter shooting and defense, two things Childress conspicuously lacks.

The biggest factor in our success has been the play of Bibby.

bibby gets a lot more open looks now than he did last year. The reason is that the Hawks have better spacing. Childress complete inability to score from the outside killed the Hawks spacing and made them easier to defend.

[AtLaS]

It isn't like i am asking for the moon either. It isn't that much to expect guys to box out and throw fewer passes to the opposing team or the fans.

The Hawks biggest problem isn't turnovers, although many are dumb ones. We're the 8th best team in the NBA in terms of TO's per game. Other teams make tons of dumb turnovers also, including Boston who leads the league in turnovers.

[exodus]

Well in his defense he didn't quote your post, he quoted a reply to you.

Sometimes I think you guys like to argue just to argue! :saythat:

Let it be noted that it was about this time last year that sturt made his self congratulatory thread to let everyone know how smart he is.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index....=276837&hl=

Of course the Hawks proceeded to have a dismal stretch of games thereafter and finished 7 games below .500. I don't think he was feeling too nos_sturt_damus like when the Hawks started losing 12-16 at the same time he made this thread.

[exodus]

The Hawks biggest problem isn't turnovers, although many are dumb ones. We're the 8th best team in the NBA in terms of TO's per game. Other teams make tons of dumb turnovers also, including Boston who leads the league in turnovers.

That number is misleading for two reasons. First of all the Hawks play at a slow pace. Fewer possessions lead to fewer turnovers. Secondly the Hawks are a jump shooting team. They are 28th in inside scoring.

http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM15.HTM

Fewer drives to the basket means fewer turnovers.

The Hawks made way too many turnovers that are completely unforced.

[Admin]

That number is misleading for two reasons. First of all the Hawks play at a slow pace. Fewer possessions lead to fewer turnovers. Secondly the Hawks are a jump shooting team. They are 28th in inside scoring.

http://www.82games.com/0809/FGTEAM15.HTM

Fewer drives to the basket means fewer turnovers.

The Hawks made way too many turnovers that are completely unforced.

We're 11th in turnover ratio though which I believe is a pretty accurate measurement.

Turnover Ratio is the percentage of a team’s possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]

This year we're averaging 13.4 TOs per game compared with 14.9 last year. The big difference is that Bibby is down an entire TO per game and Smith is down .2 and JJ is down .2 so that's pretty much your difference right there.

That's true about the fewer drives, although JJ leads our team in TOs (and by a wide margin over all but Smoove) and he handles (or mishandles) the ball quite a bit on the perimeter. It seems to me that most of his turnovers are from him losing the ball while he's dribbling around outside as opposed to when he's driving to the basket.

[exodus]

We're 11th in turnover ratio though which I believe is a pretty accurate measurement.

This year we're averaging 13.4 TOs per game compared with 14.9 last year. The big difference is that Bibby is down an entire TO per game and Smith is down .2 and JJ is down .2 so that's pretty much your difference right there.

That's true about the fewer drives, although JJ leads our team in TOs (and by a wide margin over all but Smoove) and he handles (or mishandles) the ball quite a bit on the perimeter. It seems to me that most of his turnovers are from him losing the ball while he's dribbling around outside as opposed to when he's driving to the basket.

Anyone who handles the ball as much as JJ does will have his share of turnovers. Here are the current top 5 in turnovers.

1 S. Jackson, GSW

2 D. Wade, MIA

3 S. Nash, PHO

4 D. Williams, UTH

5 C. Anthony, DEN

JJ makes some dumb turnovers but most of his turnovers come from overdribbling during the iso Joe routine. He is frequently doubled far away from the basket and tries to dribble out of it. The other guys don't have to deal with traffic on the perimeter.

It is the unforced turnovers from guys who don't handle the ball much that are really hurting.

[Admin]

Anyone who handles the ball as much as JJ does will have his share of turnovers. Here are the current top 5 in turnovers.

1 S. Jackson, GSW

2 D. Wade, MIA

3 S. Nash, PHO

4 D. Williams, UTH

5 C. Anthony, DEN

JJ makes some dumb turnovers but most of his turnovers come from overdribbling during the iso Joe routine. He is frequently doubled far away from the basket and tries to dribble out of it. The other guys don't have to deal with traffic on the perimeter.

It is the unforced turnovers from guys who don't handle the ball much that are really hurting.

That's my point is that JJ accounts for about 20% of our teams TOs and his are a lot more understandable than those of Smoove or Horford or Zaza. Considering that we're scoring the same amount of points this year and JJ (0.2), Smoove (0.2), Horford (0.1) and Bibby (1.0) have all decreased their TOs per game I'd say we have improved some. Zaza is equal to last year while increasing his minutes by 5.

Yes the unforced TOs are annoying but we're improving and all teams have them.

[mrhonline]

All I'm saying, and I think Diesel would actually agree with me, is that there's no guarantee that the Hawks will win next year, or the rest of this year for that matter.

I am enjoying the winning right now, no matter how imperfect.

"Losing sucks" is a truism, but it's been far TOO true here until this season...

[exodus]

All I'm saying, and I think Diesel would actually agree with me, is that there's no guarantee that the Hawks will win next year, or the rest of this year for that matter.

I am enjoying the winning right now, no matter how imperfect.

"Losing sucks" is a truism, but it's been far TOO true here until this season...

Threads like this are like contrarian indicators to me. You made a similar thread after the Hawks played like crap but still beat the Knicks.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index....&hl=illogic

Then the hawks promptly lost three straight games. their turnovers killed them against Dallas (without Howard) and they got outrebounded by 16 against the Rockets (without McGrady) and 31 by the Spurs.

Right now the Hawks aren't playing nearly as well as they were at the start of the season.

[mrhonline]

Threads like this are like contrarian indicators to me. You made a similar thread after the Hawks played like crap but still beat the Knicks.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index....&hl=illogic

Then the hawks promptly lost three straight games. their turnovers killed them against Dallas (without Howard) and they got outrebounded by 16 against the Rockets (without McGrady) and 31 by the Spurs.

Right now the Hawks aren't playing nearly as well as they were at the start of the season.

95% of the NBA's not playing as well as the Hawks were at the start of the season.

Regardless, the Hawks have won 10 of 15 since that thread I started. Your point is invalid and classic "cherrypickin' like Childress" stats.

Did I just compare you to Childress? You bet I did.

:saythat:

LOL

Edited January 6, 2009 by mrhonline