I've seen enough. Joe Johnson needs to be traded.

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Shhhhh......

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=290503001

Keep on hatin' Hotlanta. Keep on hatin'.

[WraithSentinel]

Joe Johnson, Great to have you showing up today.

[Flight]

Dwyane Wade is killing us, and Joe Johnson has no kind of response whatsoever.

Joe Johnson has only played well one time during this whole series. I've seen enough. Joe Johnson needs to be traded.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! apparently 6-8 from deep is a horrible response!

[Bahamut]

OMG!!! TRADE JOE JOHNSON!!!!

Wow, he really changed my mind today!

Time to upset the Cavs, the Magic, and then the Mavs.

[NJHAWK]

The old saying is I hate to say I told you so but today I love to say I TOLD YOU SO.

[NJHAWK]

Where is the warning for NJHawk? Not for his language, which is inappropriate, but for thinking Joe is is in the top 10 in NBA players. Seriously? There is a legitimate argument as to whether he belongs in the top 30. And let's not even get into dollar for dollar type of analysis.

Having said that, I'm not for ever trading Josh. Joe on the other hand, might net us a younger, hungrier, more dynamic and explosive player. An organization with more assets at their disposal, might give us the next big thing because they want a sure thing right now.

Where is the warning for this guy for being wrong and lets face it dumb.

[NJHAWK]

top 15 players shoo 43% and average 15PPG in the playoffs? Nah.

Joe played like 2 or 3 standout periods against Boston. He didn't have a good overall series. His career playoff numbers (coming into this playoffs):

15.5PPG

4.2RPG

3APG

Going to be even lower after this playoffs are over.Yikes.

LETS GO HAWKS LETS GO HAWKS LETS GO HAWKS. Hey Hotlanta where are you sorry ayss Hornets? Chris Paul has so much heart his team lost a playoff game by over 60 points AT HOME. LATER HATER

[LOL_Hawks]

Best thread ever. Anti-jinx award goes to you, sir.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Hello All,

On the eve of Game 7 - I'm back again to essentially say the same thing I've tried to say over the past 2+ years...

First a few quick hitters:

1) Ask any Rockets fan who'd they'd rather have JJ or TMAC and UNANIMOUSLY they would all say JJ. TMAC has never "led" them out of the first round, he's constantly hurt... and worst of all - once he got wind of a trade this year, he killed his trade value by opting to have microfracture surgery... on his own!!! You'd honestly rather have a guy that does that than Joe? Really? Um ok.

2) You people (you know who you are) seem to think Joe is as good as Kobe, LeBron or DWade. He's not. He never has been. He never will be. I said this back in January of 09; said it last year, too. There's always these rants about "DWade is showing what a real superstar does." Agreed. DWade (when healthy), LeBron, Kobe are all on a different planet than everybody else. You don't really compare them to other people (other than themselves). There's 27 teams in the NBA that don't have a DWade, LeBron, Kobe-caliber player. We're one of those teams. Get over it.

In fact: There's probably only a handful of people in the league that I would trade Joe for even up. For example - 1:1 who would you get from the following Eastern Conference teams?

Wizards? Butler, Jamison, Arenas? You doing any of those 1:1? Arenas is always hurt (not to mention he's never led his team anywhere either)

Knicks? Lee? I do like him, but hopefully Josh/Horf fill the role of double-double machine for us

Toronto? Bosh? He's a great PF - but you realize he "led" the Raptors to a 32-50 record, right? Don't get me wrong - he's a stud.. but 32-50 is 5 games worse than us LAST year...

Milwaukee? Redd? (always hurt... and the Bucks stink with him as their "best" player)

New Jersey? Vince? (you wanna see no heart? here's your guy.) Devin Harris? (he's a stud for sure and definitely an up-and-coming PG.... but don't we want to seem him make it through a season first?)

Charlotte? Wallace? See David Lee.

Indiana - Granger. I'll give you that. Again - I'm concerned about his injuries; and he put up numbers playing with a coach (Jimmy O) that pretty much lets that team do whatever they want... a more disciplined system might curb his numbers a bit. But I'm willing to listen to offers on this one.... I'd at least hear your argument.

Detroit - keep walking....

Chicago - Rose? He's probably going to be a top 3 PG for the next decade, so I'll give you that one.

Philly - um....

Miami - DWADE

Orlando - Howard (who's team won without him, on the road, BTW)

Boston - Rondo? Maybe. PP - I'll stay with Joe. Ray Allen - I'll stay with Joe.

Cleveland - Bron.

By my count in the Eastern Conference - Bron, DWade, Rose, Maybe Granger, Howard, Maybe Rondo.

So Joe's arguably the 7th best player in the Eastern Conference?

I'll take that. People, he's not DWade, Bron or Kobe. But he's in whatever tier is below that one. But again - there's only 3 people in the 1st teir. Get over it.

3) People are comparing him to Paul Pierce. This is laughable. Do any of you remember PP wasn't much more than Michael Redd before KG and Ray Allen came to town?

When PP was 25 - he shot 41.6% (30.2 % from 3) from the field and his team went 44-38 (and lost in the EC Semis to the Nets)

When PP was 26 - he shot 40.2% (29.9 % from 3) from the field and his team went 36-46 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 27 - he shot 45.5% (37 % from 3) from the field and his team went 45-37 (and lost in the 1st Rd of the playoffs)

When PP was 28 - he shot 47.1% (35.4% from 3) from the field and his team went 33-49 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 29 - he shot 43.9% (38.9% from 3) from the field and his team went 24-58 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 30 - he got KG, Ray and a ring.

What am I trying to show? a few things:

1) It had been said that no superstars shoot 41 percent or 43 percent, etc... and PP was used as some sort of benchmark. Look above. 3 out of 5 years - PP shot below 44%,

2) And 3 out of 5 years PP "led" his team to a spot outside of the playoffs. Is he good? Sure. But let's not make it like dude has been leading the C's to some sort of promised land. I'm willing to wager if you gave Joe: Rondo (who's averaging a triple double for a series, btw) vs. Bibby, Ray vs. Mo Evans, and KG over Solo... Joe'd be just fine. Given - PP is clutch. We all remember his big buckets... but he missed a potentially game one winning FT vs. the Bulls; he got his shot blocked to end game 4, in the same series etc. Joe Dropped 20 on the C's last year in the 4th Quarter of Game 4; Joe hit the clinching 3 in game 6. Again - I'm not saying PP stinks; and I'm not saying JJ is GOD... I'm just saying - PP's not some long-time winner/leader... and Joe's not a choke artist.

4) Quite a few people on this board LOVE CP3 - here's his 2009 postseason:

FG% - 41.1 %

3PT% - 31.3%

PPG - 16.6

AST - 10.4

TO - 4.8

And outside of his Game 3 Performance (32, 12, and 5) - dude was averaging 12.75 PPG on 35.8% shooting. So if Joe is garbage for what he's doing this playoff series (which is 3-3)... what is CP3?

And the banner on this page is talking about "where no heart happens?"...

CP3 "led" his team to a 58-point loss.... AT HOME

Some early in this thread said that no superstar would perform as Joe has this series....

CP3 was arguably worse...

5) Back to PP - I'd love to see another Hawk drop 50+ and check out this board to see all of the "What are we paying Joe for? Smoove (or some other player on the team other than Joe) went for 50!!! Joe sucks! I wish he'd go for 50!" Paul Pierce is currently playing on a team with a Point Guard averaging a triple-double, and a SG that went for 50 in Game 6.

For the Series - Ray Allen was the C's leading scorer, and Rondo was arguably their best player. PP shot 42.7% from the field for the 7 games, and 33.3% from three. Those stats are better than Joe (he's in the 30% from the field)... but do you think Miami would be able to double Joe all damn game if he was playing with a guy averaging a triple double and another guy that was averaging 23.4 PPG on almost 50% shooting from 3??? The answer my friends - is NO.

Bibby's playing well. Flip (despite some in this thread talking about how much he's doing) is shooting 35.8 from the floor (worse than Joe). Horf is averaging 9 and 7. ZaZa is playing great - but is still averaging 7 and 7 on 42% shooting. Josh has been just ok.

Again - look at the C's vs. the Hawks. And consider that Joe is getting doubled 30 feet from the basket at times. Any time he hits one jumper, Miami calls a timeout lol. Joe's not in LeBron/Kobe/Wade's class - but due to supporting cast of the Hawks - Joe is being treated with more attention than we're giving Wade!!!

My dad - who has no rooting interest at all even brought this up. Why is Joe (who's not as good as Wade) being guarded with a triangle-and-two defense... but Wade (who's better than Joe) is getting Mo Evans, Flip Murray, Joe Johnson, and Mike Bibby in man-on-man coverage?

PP doesn't deal with triangle-and-twos.... so stop comparing the two.

6) I do want to end this marathon post (as most of mine are... it's a bit theraputic) with my dose of reality...

- It does annoy me that Joe seemingly "waits" for the double team to come. It kills me that they don't try to puch the pace a little bit. They're not getting any good action off that double... so why wait for it.

- I too, would like to see them put Joe in the post a bit more. It's easier for him to kick out, etc from the post instead of dribbling 35 feet away from the hoop.

- I too, would like to see Joe get a little cranky and take the ball to the hoop and draw some contact. Unfortunately in Game 6 - he tried to do this and drew an an offensive foul (and had to go sit down for the rest of the 1st quarter).

- I would love to see Joe get hyped/fired up... gesture to the crowd to "get up," etc... but that's not really how dude rolls. Never has been, I don't think it ever will.

and 3 more things:

1) in 04/05 - this team won 13 games.... it's 4 years later and Joe's been a 3 time all-star and we're a 4 seed in the Eastern Conference. Keep a little perspective people. If we win tomorrow - that will be our 1st 7 game series win in a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG time. It hasn't been pretty, it's been a whole lotta annoying. But come tomorrow night - we're in the Elite 8 of the NBA. Seriously people - I know it's hard. DWade is the best player on the court when we play... and LeBron will be the best player on the court in the next round - but we're seeing 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA in these playoffs. Relax a bit.

2) Woodson won a title with the Pistons. Who was their best player? The answer... on any given night it was either Billips or Hamilton or Prince or Sheed. That's four guys, fellas. There were games where Billups was terrible but Prince carried them. Games in which Hamilton was terrible, but Sheed carried them. Games in which Prince and Hamilton were terrible but Billups was magnificent. I guess what I'm trying to say is - maybe that's what the Hawks are? Maybe it's time to stop looking at players as "our best" or "our second best" and just look at the Hawks as a team? Some nights Horford carries us, some nights it's Flip. Other nights it's Smoove or ZaZa or Bibby. Most nights it's Joe. Again - there are very few players that have the ability to single-handedly carry their team. We don't have that guy... neither do any of the 8 playoff teams in the East aside from Cleveland and Miami. You can't say Howard because he's got Lewis, and Turk (two players better than anything we have outside of Joe)... and Orlando clinched a series on the road without "Superman." But again - look at it as a team. I have a very good friend from Detroit. He looked at those Pistons teams as "The Pistons." He loved all of them... through thick and thin. He didn't want to trade Billups after a bad series. He didn't want to get rid of Rip after a bad series.

The amount of expectations you put on Joe are insane. You expect him to be LeBron when he's not. He's easy to phase out of a game/series because he's not good enough to beat double teams by himself... and he doesn't really have a supporting cast that makes defenses pay for running their triangle-and-two.

And reality is - next series is gonna be the exact same thing. Cavs whole defensive plan is to make someone other than Joe beat them. So instead of looking at it as a knock on Joe that he can't - look at it as some kind of flattery that he deserves that much attention and a knock on the players that he's playing with....

Go Hawks.

Mark

PS - I'm annoyed with Joe, too... but the hatred that man faces on this site is out of control.

Post of the Year.

[TroyMcClure]

Where is the warning for this guy for being wrong and lets face it dumb.

Josh Smith is the heart and soul of the Atlanta Hawks. Today showed it.

I'm sorry for you, NJHAWK. I've read many racist and outright stupid remarks from you time and again. Your opinion overshoots your intellect.

[TroyMcClure]

Where is the warning for this guy for being wrong and lets face it dumb.

I assure you, this is off the top of my head. I don't hate Joe, I just think Josh Smith is far more valuable.

Here's at least 10 guys that took me less than 10 seconds to think of. Each are of more value to the NBA and their individual franchises, than Joe Johnson. Howard, Ming, Kobe, Rose, Boozer, Williams, Lebron, Wade, Mello, Chauncey, Dirk, Pierce, Allen. Now, do we really want to do this? Let's just be happy. They played great today.

Edited May 3, 2009 by TroyMcClure

[NJHAWK]

Josh Smith is the heart and soul of the Atlanta Hawks. Today showed it.

I'm sorry for you, NJHAWK. I've read many racist and outright stupid remarks from you time and again. Your opinion overshoots your intellect.

Joe was by far our best player out there today and if anyone came to the court with heart and soul it was Zaza. You were wrong about JJ no matter how many times you attempt to insult me the fact is you were DEAD WRONG. Now go play your drop the soap game with Hotlanta.

Edited May 3, 2009 by NJHAWK

[HawksBalla]

After watching today's game I believe that JJ has the TALENT to be a superstar, statistically. The problems that are holding him back are two:

1. His coach runs him into the ground with all the minutes played.

2. He forces his game too much. Is it because he feels like he has to do it all by himself because his teammates arent good enough? Does he feel pressure to be THE man? Is it coaching that is pushing him to force jumpers? Is it our playbook and offensive scheme?

#1 can be easily fixed, and I hope Sund does something about it. So really, the problem is #2. Because today was a perfect example of how good JJ can be when he lets the game come to him, as Mark Jackson said. He wasnt forcing those double-teamed jumpers. He was passing a lot. And we were running plays to get JJ open off screens.

I think JJ could score 25 a game if he played three less minutes a game, wasnt forced to bring up the ball as often as he does, he relied on his teammates more, and we run more plays that get him open.

BTW I would have done the Tmac for JJ trade, but then I remembered the surgery Tmac just had. Pass.

[LOL_Hawks]

I do love the fact that lurkers coming in and making excellent posts seems to be a frequent occurrence on here.

[Antmillennium]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! apparently 6-8 from deep is a horrible response!

Joe Johnson played well today. He wasn't passive and he refused to let himself be taken out of the game today. I was proud of his effort. Hopefully, this is a learning experience for him. Notice how he forced his way into the game - even if it meant taking a 3-point shot from WAY downtown? If he's our All Star, that's what he's SUPPOSED to do. There is nothing wrong with our star forcing the issue. I'll have no problem with Joe Johnson whatsoever if he continues to play that way. He showed a lot of heart today. We need him to continue to play that way. I won't be mad at Joe if he attempts to make his presence felt in a game, and he just fails while being aggressive. However, I feel as if he could have tried a lot harder to make his presence felt in the other games instead of letting Miami take him out of the game. However, I give credit where credit is due. I LOVE Joe Johnson when he decides to play like that. Hopefully, that will be how Joe approaches the games from here on out. I don't expect us to beat Cleveland, but I at least expect Joe Johnson to go down swinging.

[NJHAWK]

Yes, I know. Josh Smith needs to learn how to play smarter, work on his jumpshot, and etc... However, you can trade Josh Smith for whomever you want to, but Joe Johnson will still be what he is - and that's a passive . He's supposed to be the star of the team, but he has no heart. Dwyane Wade is killing us, and Joe Johnson has no kind of response whatsoever. 'Nique would have NEVER stood for that. Joe Johnson doesn't attack the double team. He just sits and passively WAITS for the double team!!!!! I believe that Joe is 27 years old, but he moves around the court like he's 47. Joe Johnson doesn't have the heart, mental toughness, or the athleticism to be the lead man for this team. Instead of rising to the occasion, he's the type that shrinks back and disappears. He is easily taken out of the game, and he ACCEPTS it!!!!!!! Role players play well at home and disappear on the road. Stars are supposed to play well on the road and at home. Joe Johnson has only played well one time during this whole series. I've seen enough. Joe Johnson needs to be traded.

Whats that Forrest Gump saying about stupid again?

[NJHAWK]

Joe is only worth about 20-25 games for us. We would be a top notch 25 win team without him. Also nobody would sniff an open shot without him. You ever notice 3 guys dont run at Smoove when he gets the ball. Seems like all the other nba coaches dont agree with you.

Edited May 4, 2009 by NJHAWK

[Plainview1981]

Joe was by far our best player out there today and if anyone came to the court with heart and soul it was Zaza. You were wrong about JJ no matter how many times you attempt to insult me the fact is you were DEAD WRONG. Now go play your drop the soap game with Hotlanta.

He finally stepped up and did what he gets paid to do. Light him a cigar.

[Plainview1981]

Josh Smith is the heart and soul of the Atlanta Hawks. Today showed it.

I'm sorry for you, NJHAWK. I've read many racist and outright stupid remarks from you time and again. Your opinion overshoots your intellect.

He is from New Jersey. You can't expect much.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Hotlanta1981

[NJHAWK]

He is from New Jersey. You can't expect much.

Well if it isnt Chris Pauls soap droppin stalker. Where is Paul and his -60 point bomb squad these days. Talk about NO HEART.