I've seen enough. Joe Johnson needs to be traded.

[NJHAWK]

I think Woody is a good coach and is right to preach defense because d and rebounds win playoff games, always have always will. I think instead of us all calling for his head we should call for ASG to hire a good offensive assistant coach. ASG should tell Woody they will extend his deal for another year or two following next season but only if he agrees to let the new assistant put in a new offense.

Edited May 2, 2009 by NJHAWK

[benhillboy]

Woody seems comfortable with his staff, I doubt he'd be open to bringing in some offensive guru, because evidently, he thinks his isolation offense works. I don't hate Bibby, but I frankly don't think the Hawks could afford his atrocious foot movement, which will only get worse, for another full season, or even half of one. It severely hampers him in man defense and manuevering in tight quarters in the lane with the dribble, killing our team on both ends.

I always liked Joe better in Phoenix, although I would never want any Nash or D'Antoni types. I also wouldn't be opposed to giving him until the trade deadline under a much better offensive mind who can keep the defensive principles in place (while upping the discipline) and beside a young point guard, without the experience, but certainly the tools to play the position.

[mrhonline]

Bosh plays better man defense in the post than Smoove. Smoove is an elite shotblocker, but doesnt play all that well in the post.

THANK YOU!

The only problem with that, is that you'd end up having 2 MAX money guys on the squad, when JJ's contract comes up next year.

Oh, I totally agree, but in the absence of a legit superstar, it's probably the only shot.

[LOL_Hawks]

If you're going to make a post about trading our best player, it's probably a good idea to come up with a trade that actually makes us better (i.e. to prove your point).

You don't trade just to trade.

lol, that was the same point that I tried to make. But apparently that's not the "smart" thing to do. Saying that to that guy is like talking to a brick wall. You saw that AHF came up with a list, and all he got was laughed at. I appreciate reading all of the posts that at least have ideas to make us better, but there's been nothing from the threadstarter other than insults, LOLs, and a condescending attitude towards anybody who disagrees.

Stop debating this guy. You give facts, he gives jokes (of posts).

Edited May 2, 2009 by LOL_Hawks

[troubleman]

The only problem with that, is that you'd end up having 2 MAX money guys on the squad, when JJ's contract comes up next year. Other than that, I'd do that in a heartbeat. Wouldn't even think twice about it.

I think to pull a deal like that off, we'd have to re-sign Bibby and Flip, just to have some semblence of a PG here , if we didn't draft one . . (( cough )) Ty Lawson/Johnny Flynn (( cough )).

Marvin would be a casualty, but I'd try to re-sign Zaza, for size. And maybe re-sign Solo on the cheap.

There is nothing wrong with having two max money guys on the team. Mgmt would have to be very smart with free agents, and draft picks to provide depth. I don't believe Bibby and Marvin are going to get huge contracts next year. Marvin still has potential, but I believe the injuries this year, and his inability to step up his game to become the #2 option this team sorely needs is going to hamper him. He is still young, and I believe it is more mental than anything else. Bibby is older, and it is obvious he is not the same player that he was 5 years ago. Getting a guy like Bosh would be a sign that this team is serious about taking the next step, and maybe Bibby would be willing to sacrifice for a chance at a ring. Or maybe not. lol Personally, I don't think it would take much to resign Flip or even Mo (I don't know Mo's contract situation off the top of my head). Of course this is all a dream, because I am not sure how serious ASG about building a contender.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

There is nothing wrong with having two max money guys on the team. Mgmt would have to be very smart with free agents, and draft picks to provide depth. I don't believe Bibby and Marvin are going to get huge contracts next year. Marvin still has potential, but I believe the injuries this year, and his inability to step up his game to become the #2 option this team sorely needs is going to hamper him. He is still young, and I believe it is more mental than anything else. Bibby is older, and it is obvious he is not the same player that he was 5 years ago. Getting a guy like Bosh would be a sign that this team is serious about taking the next step, and maybe Bibby would be willing to sacrifice for a chance at a ring. Or maybe not. lol Personally, I don't think it would take much to resign Flip or even Mo (I don't know Mo's contract situation off the top of my head). Of course this is all a dream, because I am not sure how serious ASG about building a contender.

You're right. There's nothing wrong with it. With JJ and Bibby, we kind of have that now. I'm just not so sure if the ASG would want to pay two guys top dollar like that, seeing that both will probably command at least 5 yr - 90 million contracts.

I definitely wouldn't be against it though. Not at all. The reason why they might not do it though, is because of Horford's impending contract extension in 2011.

And you're right. We'd have to be smart with free agents and draft picks. It can be done though. Houston proves that.

[TruJerz]

Joe Johnson has disappointed me this series. I know they're double teaming him but he still has to be aggressive..he is being too passive and his shot i broke! He doesnt seem like an all star at all. He looks like a good role player to me. With that said, we do have a game 7..and thats where the stars really shine..im hoping he has the best game of the series and leads us to victory. He has to match Wade's numbers or at least come close

I dont think we have to trade JJ but he wouldnt be a bad 2nd option..as the 1st option he doesnt seem able to carry a team every night like a Kobe, Bron, Wade or Wade can. He would be a wonderful 2nd option now that I think about it. We need him to be a vocal leader too..he is wayy too quiet out there..if he is our guy he has to show way more leadership..thats my main problem with JJ. Again, im hoping for a monster game 7 from JJ

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Joe Johnson has disappointed me this series. I know they're double teaming him but he still has to be aggressive..he is being too passive and his shot i broke! He doesnt seem like an all star at all. He looks like a good role player to me. With that said, we do have a game 7..and thats where the stars really shine..im hoping he has the best game of the series and leads us to victory. He has to match Wade's numbers or at least come close

I dont think we have to trade JJ but he wouldnt be a bad 2nd option..as the 1st option he doesnt seem able to carry a team every night like a Kobe, Bron, Wade or Wade can. He would be a wonderful 2nd option now that I think about it. We need him to be a vocal leader too..he is wayy too quiet out there..if he is our guy he has to show way more leadership..thats my main problem with JJ. Again, im hoping for a monster game 7 from JJ

He's TOO MUCH of a team player. I know that's crazy to say. But he is.

I think without Marvin on the floor to be able to knock down shots and possibly drive to the hole, it has put even more pressure on him to look for his shot. JJ averaged over 5 assists a game, mainly because of his ability to find open jumpshooters when he got doubled.

If those guys are making shots, they can't double JJ no more, and he gets his points. But if they're missing, they can concentrate solely on JJ, and let everybody else try to beat them.

In that 2nd quarter last night, he was very aggressive in his play. He took 9 shots, scored 9 points, and we cut a 17 point lead to 9. The 3rd quarter quickly got away from us though, because of horrible defense and Wade getting red hot.

I just wish JJ would jack up a few quick jumpshots, to see if he can get it going early, like Wade does.

But that may be the problem. We all want him to play like Wade, Kobe and LeBron. That's not who he is. He simply needs to take more shots though . . at least 20. Maybe some of his misses turn into offensive rebounds for us, so that we can get another possession.

The opposite usually happens when Smoove takes long jumpers, because we might only have one guy around the goal. Let JJ take all of the long jumpers, and keep Smith around the goal for possible offensive rebounds.

[Antmillennium]

If you're going to make a post about trading our best player, it's probably a good idea to come up with a trade that actually makes us better (i.e. to prove your point).

You don't trade just to trade.

I believe I said that much already. It seems as if you didn't read all of the posts where that stuff was already addressed. Go back and read the posts, and maybe it will make sense to you then.

[Antmillennium]

lol, that was the same point that I tried to make. But apparently that's not the "smart" thing to do. Saying that to that guy is like talking to a brick wall. You saw that AHF came up with a list, and all he got was laughed at. I appreciate reading all of the posts that at least have ideas to make us better, but there's been nothing from the threadstarter other than insults, LOLs, and a condescending attitude towards anybody who disagrees.

Stop debating this guy. You give facts, he gives jokes (of posts).

Actually, that just proves that you don't really comprehend or pay attention to what you read. Also, you were the one that started out with the condescending tone. Furthermore, you failed to do what I asked you to do. If you want me to come up with a trade scenario, then you need to first come up with ALL of the requested info. I've already said that if there is a way to trade Johnson to make us better, I would like to do that, but at the same time, I wouldn't trade Johnson for just anything. However, if you're going to make such a silly request of me at this time, then I must ask you to first provide me with all of the necessary information that I requested from you. However, there is no point in even having a discussion with you about Joe Johnson because you feel as if he is one of the top players in the league and that he is a good #1 option. Please explain to me how many true #1 options have performances like Joe Johnson in the playoffs??? The only way I can see us improving while keeping Joe Johnson is to get a true #1 option. If you can explain to me how that's going to be possible, especially with Joe Johnson probably wanting a max contract shortly, then by all means, please do so. However, I will admit this: Getting Woodson out of here and bringing in a coach that actually understands defense AND offense would probably help Joe and everybody else on the team.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Antmillennium

[atlien]

I believe I said that much already. It seems as if you didn't read all of the posts where that stuff was already addressed. Go back and read the posts, and maybe it will make sense to you then.

Umm, Im confused. You came closest to addressing that with this one:

First of all, have you ever heard of packaging players and picks? You could trade a player for a pick and then turn around and package that pick with another player to get what you want. The point is, it's asinine for you to ask me to come up with a trade proposal right now, because we don't have enough information about the draft positions of teams and the wants and desires of other teams. You want me to come up with a trade proposal? Fine. You come up with a draft order, a list of the top-45 players in the draft, a list of other teams' needs and wants, and a list of players that might want a change of scenery along with their contract figures.

Second, you're right. I'm not the GM. That's why it makes it even more asinine of you to ask me for a trade proposal. All I am is a fan on the internet expressing his opinions and blowing off a little steam - whether you like it or not. Nothing that anybody posts on this message board is going to have any effect on the team. Therefore, why are you getting all bent out of shape because I'd like to see Joe Johnson traded for something better? Now, I'm not stupid. I'm not saying that they should trade him for a lesser player, and I know that they can't trade Joe for somebody like Kobe, Chris Paul, or LeBron James. All I'm saying is that if there is a way to get better by trading Joe Johnson, I'd love to see it happen.

1). Yes, we do have enough information about positions of other teams (draft positions, needs, current relationships with players etc.), you just dont want to put in the work. For example, you can look at Golden State's current situation (a very bad one), and come up with something centered around players like Jamal Crawford, Monta Ellis and Anthony Randolph. Earlier, I talked about a Bosh for Smoove/Acie trade, and that was based on the reality of Bosh's impending unrestricted free agency and the fact that Toronto is poised to suck for the indefinite future (making it unlikely Bosh will stay there).

2) I realize you're "blowing off a little steam" and that your trade proposal wont actually have a "real-world" effect.

What I'm getting at is that it's a lot easier to say "we need to trade so and so for a better player" than to actually do it. Your argument is pointless if you can't come up with a JJ trade scenario that sets us up better for the future. Im not attacking you man, i'm just saying what everyone else is thinking (and really, no one should start a "Player needs to get traded" thread without actually proposing a trade that makes us better).

I mean, it's as simple as saying:

JJ and Smoove

for

Ellis, Crawford and Anthony Randolph

(with salaries thrown in to match and after waiting for BYC to expire).

[Antmillennium]

Umm, Im confused. You came closest to addressing that with this one:

1). Yes, we do have enough information about positions of other teams (draft positions, needs, current relationships with players etc.), you just dont want to put in the work. For example, you can look at Golden State's current situation (a very bad one), and come up with something centered around players like Jamal Crawford, Monta Ellis and Anthony Randolph. Earlier, I talked about a Bosh for Smoove/Acie trade, and that was based on the reality of Bosh's impending unrestricted free agency and the fact that Toronto is poised to suck for the indefinite future (making it unlikely Bosh will stay there).

2) I realize you're "blowing off a little steam" and that your trade proposal wont actually have a "real-world" effect.

What I'm getting at is that it's a lot easier to say "we need to trade so and so for a better player" than to actually do it. Your argument is pointless if you can't come up with a JJ trade scenario that sets us up better for the future. Im not attacking you man, i'm just saying what everyone else is thinking (and really, no one should start a "Player needs to get traded" thread without actually proposing a trade that makes us better).

I mean, it's as simple as saying:

JJ and Smoove

for

Ellis, Crawford and Anthony Randolph

(with salaries thrown in to match and after waiting for BYC to expire).

Like I said eariler, I wouldn't trade Joe Johnson for just anybody, and I know it's a lot tougher to actually trade a player than to say it, because of having to match up salaries and etc... Furthermore, you're right. Why the heck should I put in the work to actually go find out all of this information to come up with a realistic trade scenario as if I'm getting paid to do so or something? I've got better things to do with my time. You don't see me saying "We should trade Joe and sign LeBron!!!!!" or some silly thing like that. All I'm saying is that, in my opinion, Joe has demonstrated that he is not a reliable #1 option, he is a complimentary piece, and I would like Sund to look into the possibility of trading him. You can sit here and post trade scenarios all day, but it's all pretty pointless at the end of the day, because nobody on this message board is making any kind of executive decisions about the Hawks. Also, as soon as you do post a trade scenario, then you'll be in more arguments about what you proposed, because some people will think your proposal is completely stupid. For instance, you and I could be arguing about your Smoove/Acie for Bosh trade scenario. I wouldn't like that trade at all. However, I'm not going to go 'round and 'round with you about the merits of a fictitious trade that most likely will never happen. Likewise, I'm not about to put in the effort or the time that it would require for me to present a "realistic" fictitious trade. It's not worth my time, in my opinion, and it's not something that I enjoy doing. It's just like the NFL Draft. I'll watch it to see who the Falcons take, and I might have a few opinions on who I'd like to see them select. However, I'm not about to build a draft board and construct multiple mock drafts, as I see that as a waste of my time. If that's your sort of thing, then more power to you. As for me, I feel like it's a complete waste of time and energy.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Antmillennium

[DrReality]

1300 views. I'd say this is a pretty hot topic

[dakast]

Joe would easily be one of the best 2nd options in the NBA. You don't trade him, you bring in someone to complement him.

I think the Hawks need to push for a Bosh/Smith trade as hard as they possibly can.

Smartest thing said in this thread.

[TheFormerJJBacker]

Hello All,

On the eve of Game 7 - I'm back again to essentially say the same thing I've tried to say over the past 2+ years...

First a few quick hitters:

1) Ask any Rockets fan who'd they'd rather have JJ or TMAC and UNANIMOUSLY they would all say JJ. TMAC has never "led" them out of the first round, he's constantly hurt... and worst of all - once he got wind of a trade this year, he killed his trade value by opting to have microfracture surgery... on his own!!! You'd honestly rather have a guy that does that than Joe? Really? Um ok.

2) You people (you know who you are) seem to think Joe is as good as Kobe, LeBron or DWade. He's not. He never has been. He never will be. I said this back in January of 09; said it last year, too. There's always these rants about "DWade is showing what a real superstar does." Agreed. DWade (when healthy), LeBron, Kobe are all on a different planet than everybody else. You don't really compare them to other people (other than themselves). There's 27 teams in the NBA that don't have a DWade, LeBron, Kobe-caliber player. We're one of those teams. Get over it.

In fact: There's probably only a handful of people in the league that I would trade Joe for even up. For example - 1:1 who would you get from the following Eastern Conference teams?

Wizards? Butler, Jamison, Arenas? You doing any of those 1:1? Arenas is always hurt (not to mention he's never led his team anywhere either)

Knicks? Lee? I do like him, but hopefully Josh/Horf fill the role of double-double machine for us

Toronto? Bosh? He's a great PF - but you realize he "led" the Raptors to a 32-50 record, right? Don't get me wrong - he's a stud.. but 32-50 is 5 games worse than us LAST year...

Milwaukee? Redd? (always hurt... and the Bucks stink with him as their "best" player)

New Jersey? Vince? (you wanna see no heart? here's your guy.) Devin Harris? (he's a stud for sure and definitely an up-and-coming PG.... but don't we want to seem him make it through a season first?)

Charlotte? Wallace? See David Lee.

Indiana - Granger. I'll give you that. Again - I'm concerned about his injuries; and he put up numbers playing with a coach (Jimmy O) that pretty much lets that team do whatever they want... a more disciplined system might curb his numbers a bit. But I'm willing to listen to offers on this one.... I'd at least hear your argument.

Detroit - keep walking....

Chicago - Rose? He's probably going to be a top 3 PG for the next decade, so I'll give you that one.

Philly - um....

Miami - DWADE

Orlando - Howard (who's team won without him, on the road, BTW)

Boston - Rondo? Maybe. PP - I'll stay with Joe. Ray Allen - I'll stay with Joe.

Cleveland - Bron.

By my count in the Eastern Conference - Bron, DWade, Rose, Maybe Granger, Howard, Maybe Rondo.

So Joe's arguably the 7th best player in the Eastern Conference?

I'll take that. People, he's not DWade, Bron or Kobe. But he's in whatever tier is below that one. But again - there's only 3 people in the 1st teir. Get over it.

3) People are comparing him to Paul Pierce. This is laughable. Do any of you remember PP wasn't much more than Michael Redd before KG and Ray Allen came to town?

When PP was 25 - he shot 41.6% (30.2 % from 3) from the field and his team went 44-38 (and lost in the EC Semis to the Nets)

When PP was 26 - he shot 40.2% (29.9 % from 3) from the field and his team went 36-46 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 27 - he shot 45.5% (37 % from 3) from the field and his team went 45-37 (and lost in the 1st Rd of the playoffs)

When PP was 28 - he shot 47.1% (35.4% from 3) from the field and his team went 33-49 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 29 - he shot 43.9% (38.9% from 3) from the field and his team went 24-58 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 30 - he got KG, Ray and a ring.

What am I trying to show? a few things:

1) It had been said that no superstars shoot 41 percent or 43 percent, etc... and PP was used as some sort of benchmark. Look above. 3 out of 5 years - PP shot below 44%,

2) And 3 out of 5 years PP "led" his team to a spot outside of the playoffs. Is he good? Sure. But let's not make it like dude has been leading the C's to some sort of promised land. I'm willing to wager if you gave Joe: Rondo (who's averaging a triple double for a series, btw) vs. Bibby, Ray vs. Mo Evans, and KG over Solo... Joe'd be just fine. Given - PP is clutch. We all remember his big buckets... but he missed a potentially game one winning FT vs. the Bulls; he got his shot blocked to end game 4, in the same series etc. Joe Dropped 20 on the C's last year in the 4th Quarter of Game 4; Joe hit the clinching 3 in game 6. Again - I'm not saying PP stinks; and I'm not saying JJ is GOD... I'm just saying - PP's not some long-time winner/leader... and Joe's not a choke artist.

4) Quite a few people on this board LOVE CP3 - here's his 2009 postseason:

FG% - 41.1 %

3PT% - 31.3%

PPG - 16.6

AST - 10.4

TO - 4.8

And outside of his Game 3 Performance (32, 12, and 5) - dude was averaging 12.75 PPG on 35.8% shooting. So if Joe is garbage for what he's doing this playoff series (which is 3-3)... what is CP3?

And the banner on this page is talking about "where no heart happens?"...

CP3 "led" his team to a 58-point loss.... AT HOME

Some early in this thread said that no superstar would perform as Joe has this series....

CP3 was arguably worse...

5) Back to PP - I'd love to see another Hawk drop 50+ and check out this board to see all of the "What are we paying Joe for? Smoove (or some other player on the team other than Joe) went for 50!!! Joe sucks! I wish he'd go for 50!" Paul Pierce is currently playing on a team with a Point Guard averaging a triple-double, and a SG that went for 50 in Game 6.

For the Series - Ray Allen was the C's leading scorer, and Rondo was arguably their best player. PP shot 42.7% from the field for the 7 games, and 33.3% from three. Those stats are better than Joe (he's in the 30% from the field)... but do you think Miami would be able to double Joe all damn game if he was playing with a guy averaging a triple double and another guy that was averaging 23.4 PPG on almost 50% shooting from 3??? The answer my friends - is NO.

Bibby's playing well. Flip (despite some in this thread talking about how much he's doing) is shooting 35.8 from the floor (worse than Joe). Horf is averaging 9 and 7. ZaZa is playing great - but is still averaging 7 and 7 on 42% shooting. Josh has been just ok.

Again - look at the C's vs. the Hawks. And consider that Joe is getting doubled 30 feet from the basket at times. Any time he hits one jumper, Miami calls a timeout lol. Joe's not in LeBron/Kobe/Wade's class - but due to supporting cast of the Hawks - Joe is being treated with more attention than we're giving Wade!!!

My dad - who has no rooting interest at all even brought this up. Why is Joe (who's not as good as Wade) being guarded with a triangle-and-two defense... but Wade (who's better than Joe) is getting Mo Evans, Flip Murray, Joe Johnson, and Mike Bibby in man-on-man coverage?

PP doesn't deal with triangle-and-twos.... so stop comparing the two.

6) I do want to end this marathon post (as most of mine are... it's a bit theraputic) with my dose of reality...

- It does annoy me that Joe seemingly "waits" for the double team to come. It kills me that they don't try to puch the pace a little bit. They're not getting any good action off that double... so why wait for it.

- I too, would like to see them put Joe in the post a bit more. It's easier for him to kick out, etc from the post instead of dribbling 35 feet away from the hoop.

- I too, would like to see Joe get a little cranky and take the ball to the hoop and draw some contact. Unfortunately in Game 6 - he tried to do this and drew an an offensive foul (and had to go sit down for the rest of the 1st quarter).

- I would love to see Joe get hyped/fired up... gesture to the crowd to "get up," etc... but that's not really how dude rolls. Never has been, I don't think it ever will.

and 3 more things:

1) in 04/05 - this team won 13 games.... it's 4 years later and Joe's been a 3 time all-star and we're a 4 seed in the Eastern Conference. Keep a little perspective people. If we win tomorrow - that will be our 1st 7 game series win in a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG time. It hasn't been pretty, it's been a whole lotta annoying. But come tomorrow night - we're in the Elite 8 of the NBA. Seriously people - I know it's hard. DWade is the best player on the court when we play... and LeBron will be the best player on the court in the next round - but we're seeing 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA in these playoffs. Relax a bit.

2) Woodson won a title with the Pistons. Who was their best player? The answer... on any given night it was either Billips or Hamilton or Prince or Sheed. That's four guys, fellas. There were games where Billups was terrible but Prince carried them. Games in which Hamilton was terrible, but Sheed carried them. Games in which Prince and Hamilton were terrible but Billups was magnificent. I guess what I'm trying to say is - maybe that's what the Hawks are? Maybe it's time to stop looking at players as "our best" or "our second best" and just look at the Hawks as a team? Some nights Horford carries us, some nights it's Flip. Other nights it's Smoove or ZaZa or Bibby. Most nights it's Joe. Again - there are very few players that have the ability to single-handedly carry their team. We don't have that guy... neither do any of the 8 playoff teams in the East aside from Cleveland and Miami. You can't say Howard because he's got Lewis, and Turk (two players better than anything we have outside of Joe)... and Orlando clinched a series on the road without "Superman." But again - look at it as a team. I have a very good friend from Detroit. He looked at those Pistons teams as "The Pistons." He loved all of them... through thick and thin. He didn't want to trade Billups after a bad series. He didn't want to get rid of Rip after a bad series.

The amount of expectations you put on Joe are insane. You expect him to be LeBron when he's not. He's easy to phase out of a game/series because he's not good enough to beat double teams by himself... and he doesn't really have a supporting cast that makes defenses pay for running their triangle-and-two.

And reality is - next series is gonna be the exact same thing. Cavs whole defensive plan is to make someone other than Joe beat them. So instead of looking at it as a knock on Joe that he can't - look at it as some kind of flattery that he deserves that much attention and a knock on the players that he's playing with....

Go Hawks.

Mark

PS - I'm annoyed with Joe, too... but the hatred that man faces on this site is out of control.

Edited May 3, 2009 by JJBacker

[TheFormerJJBacker]

And a quick note - I don't wanna hear anything about "then what are we paying 5 years, $70 million for? If you're just looking at it as a team, why is he getting superstar money?"

1) Kevin Garnett - $24.75 Million

2) Allen Iverson - $21.9375 Million

3) Jason Kidd - $21.372 Million

4) Jermaine O'Neal - 21.3525 Million

5) Kobe Bryant - $21.2625 Million

6) Tracy McGrady - $21.126874 Million

7) Tim Duncan - $20.598703 Million

8) Shaquille O'Neal - $20 Million

9) Stephon Marbury - $19.862275 Million

10) Steve Francis - $19.814480 Million

11) Dirk Nowitzki - $18.077904 Million

11) Paul Pierce - $18.077904 Million

11) Shawn Marion - $18.077904 Million

14) Ray Allen - $17.388430 Million

15) Rashard Lewis - $17.238 Million

16) Michael Redd - $15.78 Million

17) Mike Bibby - $15.225 Million

18) Vince Carter - $15.2 Million

19) Andrei Kirilenko - $15.080312 Million

19) Pau Gasol - $15.080312 Million

21) Yao Ming - $15.070550 Million

21) Amare' Stoudamire - $15.070550 Million

23) Zach Randolph - $14.666666 Million

24) Lamar Odom - $14.559 Million

25) Ben Wallace - $14.5 Million

25) Gilbert Arenas - $14.5 Million

27) Chris Bosh - $14.410581 Million

27) Dwayne Wade - $14.410581 Million

27) Carmelo Anthony - $14.410581 Million

27) LeBron James - $14.410581 Million

That's right, folks - Joe Johnson isn't in the top 30 in the NBA for the 2008/2009 season in terms of salary. What's interesting - he's actually the 4th highest paid player in this SERIES!!!

Given - Joe ought to be better than Bibby and JO... but for those that seem to make it all about salary and say things like "you don't give this guy 5 years/$70 million" etc... well that salary has him slotted as the 4th highest paid player in the series.

And you can't look at NBA contracts as anything more than monopoly money anyway. You don't think quite a few teams wouldn't rather be paying Joe Johson his $14.232 million than some of the bums on this list?

I understand there many players still on their rookie contracts so that makes them a massive bargin because they're making far less than market value right now... so someone could easily say "so and so is only making $2 million - so I'd rather have him than Joe"... (but as soon as they sign their first extension that argument is over).

To say Joe is overpaid, etc... is silly. He doesn't even have a top 30 salary in the NBA... and I don't think there are many arguments saying he's not a top 30 player.

M

Edited May 3, 2009 by JJBacker

[Plainview1981]

1) Ask any Rockets fan who'd they'd rather have JJ or TMAC and UNANIMOUSLY they would all say JJ. TMAC has never "led" them out of the first round, he's constantly hurt... and worst of all - once he got wind of a trade this year, he killed his trade value by opting to have microfracture surgery... on his own!!! You'd honestly rather have a guy that does that than Joe? Really? Um ok.

The Rockets would take a bag of chips and a rack of basketballs for Tmac. That means nothing.

1) It had been said that no superstars shoot 41 percent or 43 percent, etc... and PP was used as some sort of benchmark. Look above. 3 out of 5 years - PP shot below 44%,

2) And 3 out of 5 years PP "led" his team to a spot outside of the playoffs. Is he good? Sure. But let's not make it like dude has been leading the C's to some sort of promised land. I'm willing to wager if you gave Joe: Rondo (who's averaging a triple double for a series, btw) vs. Bibby, Ray vs. Mo Evans, and KG over Solo... Joe'd be just fine. Given - PP is clutch. We all remember his big buckets... but he missed a potentially game one winning FT vs. the Bulls; he got his shot blocked to end game 4, in the same series etc. Joe Dropped 20 on the C's last year in the 4th Quarter of Game 4; Joe hit the clinching 3 in game 6. Again - I'm not saying PP stinks; and I'm not saying JJ is GOD... I'm just saying - PP's not some long-time winner/leader... and Joe's not a choke artist.

One thing that allows them some wiggle room. PP GETS TO THE FOUL LINE when his jumper is off. If Joe's jumper is off, he's not going to score very often.

4) Quite a few people on this board LOVE CP3 - here's his 2009 postseason:

FG% - 41.1 %

3PT% - 31.3%

PPG - 16.6

AST - 10.4

TO - 4.8

Those numbers are arguably better than JJ's CAREER PLAYOFF numbers. Paul probably has less offensive talent around him. Who else on that team can score other than West? Chandler? Posey? a past his prime Peja?

1) in 04/05 - this team won 13 games.... it's 4 years later and Joe's been a 3 time all-star and we're a 4 seed in the Eastern Conference. Keep a little perspective people. If we win tomorrow - that will be our 1st 7 game series win in a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG time. It hasn't been pretty, it's been a whole lotta annoying. But come tomorrow night - we're in the Elite 8 of the NBA. Seriously people - I know it's hard. DWade is the best player on the court when we play... and LeBron will be the best player on the court in the next round - but we're seeing 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA in these playoffs. Relax a bit.

The only reason this team has improved it's win total is because the east has got weaker and weaker. Outside of the three above, there is not a good team in the conference. A team with as poor fundamentals as the hawks is NOT a good team. This team is a poor free throw shooting team and a much worse 3pt shooting team than what the stats suggest.

Hello All,

On the eve of Game 7 - I'm back again to essentially say the same thing I've tried to say over the past 2+ years...

First a few quick hitters:

1) Ask any Rockets fan who'd they'd rather have JJ or TMAC and UNANIMOUSLY they would all say JJ. TMAC has never "led" them out of the first round, he's constantly hurt... and worst of all - once he got wind of a trade this year, he killed his trade value by opting to have microfracture surgery... on his own!!! You'd honestly rather have a guy that does that than Joe? Really? Um ok.

2) You people (you know who you are) seem to think Joe is as good as Kobe, LeBron or DWade. He's not. He never has been. He never will be. I said this back in January of 09; said it last year, too. There's always these rants about "DWade is showing what a real superstar does." Agreed. DWade (when healthy), LeBron, Kobe are all on a different planet than everybody else. You don't really compare them to other people (other than themselves). There's 27 teams in the NBA that don't have a DWade, LeBron, Kobe-caliber player. We're one of those teams. Get over it.

In fact: There's probably only a handful of people in the league that I would trade Joe for even up. For example - 1:1 who would you get from the following Eastern Conference teams?

Wizards? Butler, Jamison, Arenas? You doing any of those 1:1? Arenas is always hurt (not to mention he's never led his team anywhere either)

Knicks? Lee? I do like him, but hopefully Josh/Horf fill the role of double-double machine for us

Toronto? Bosh? He's a great PF - but you realize he "led" the Raptors to a 32-50 record, right? Don't get me wrong - he's a stud.. but 32-50 is 5 games worse than us LAST year...

Milwaukee? Redd? (always hurt... and the Bucks stink with him as their "best" player)

New Jersey? Vince? (you wanna see no heart? here's your guy.) Devin Harris? (he's a stud for sure and definitely an up-and-coming PG.... but don't we want to seem him make it through a season first?)

Charlotte? Wallace? See David Lee.

Indiana - Granger. I'll give you that. Again - I'm concerned about his injuries; and he put up numbers playing with a coach (Jimmy O) that pretty much lets that team do whatever they want... a more disciplined system might curb his numbers a bit. But I'm willing to listen to offers on this one.... I'd at least hear your argument.

Detroit - keep walking....

Chicago - Rose? He's probably going to be a top 3 PG for the next decade, so I'll give you that one.

Philly - um....

Miami - DWADE

Orlando - Howard (who's team won without him, on the road, BTW)

Boston - Rondo? Maybe. PP - I'll stay with Joe. Ray Allen - I'll stay with Joe.

Cleveland - Bron.

By my count in the Eastern Conference - Bron, DWade, Rose, Maybe Granger, Howard, Maybe Rondo.

So Joe's arguably the 7th best player in the Eastern Conference?

I'll take that. People, he's not DWade, Bron or Kobe. But he's in whatever tier is below that one. But again - there's only 3 people in the 1st teir. Get over it.

3) People are comparing him to Paul Pierce. This is laughable. Do any of you remember PP wasn't much more than Michael Redd before KG and Ray Allen came to town?

When PP was 25 - he shot 41.6% (30.2 % from 3) from the field and his team went 44-38 (and lost in the EC Semis to the Nets)

When PP was 26 - he shot 40.2% (29.9 % from 3) from the field and his team went 36-46 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 27 - he shot 45.5% (37 % from 3) from the field and his team went 45-37 (and lost in the 1st Rd of the playoffs)

When PP was 28 - he shot 47.1% (35.4% from 3) from the field and his team went 33-49 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 29 - he shot 43.9% (38.9% from 3) from the field and his team went 24-58 (didn't make the playoffs)

When PP was 30 - he got KG, Ray and a ring.

What am I trying to show? a few things:

1) It had been said that no superstars shoot 41 percent or 43 percent, etc... and PP was used as some sort of benchmark. Look above. 3 out of 5 years - PP shot below 44%,

2) And 3 out of 5 years PP "led" his team to a spot outside of the playoffs. Is he good? Sure. But let's not make it like dude has been leading the C's to some sort of promised land. I'm willing to wager if you gave Joe: Rondo (who's averaging a triple double for a series, btw) vs. Bibby, Ray vs. Mo Evans, and KG over Solo... Joe'd be just fine. Given - PP is clutch. We all remember his big buckets... but he missed a potentially game one winning FT vs. the Bulls; he got his shot blocked to end game 4, in the same series etc. Joe Dropped 20 on the C's last year in the 4th Quarter of Game 4; Joe hit the clinching 3 in game 6. Again - I'm not saying PP stinks; and I'm not saying JJ is GOD... I'm just saying - PP's not some long-time winner/leader... and Joe's not a choke artist.

4) Quite a few people on this board LOVE CP3 - here's his 2009 postseason:

FG% - 41.1 %

3PT% - 31.3%

PPG - 16.6

AST - 10.4

TO - 4.8

And outside of his Game 3 Performance (32, 12, and 5) - dude was averaging 12.75 PPG on 35.8% shooting. So if Joe is garbage for what he's doing this playoff series (which is 3-3)... what is CP3?

And the banner on this page is talking about "where no heart happens?"...

CP3 "led" his team to a 58-point loss.... AT HOME

Some early in this thread said that no superstar would perform as Joe has this series....

CP3 was arguably worse...

5) Back to PP - I'd love to see another Hawk drop 50+ and check out this board to see all of the "What are we paying Joe for? Smoove (or some other player on the team other than Joe) went for 50!!! Joe sucks! I wish he'd go for 50!" Paul Pierce is currently playing on a team with a Point Guard averaging a triple-double, and a SG that went for 50 in Game 6.

For the Series - Ray Allen was the C's leading scorer, and Rondo was arguably their best player. PP shot 42.7% from the field for the 7 games, and 33.3% from three. Those stats are better than Joe (he's in the 30% from the field)... but do you think Miami would be able to double Joe all damn game if he was playing with a guy averaging a triple double and another guy that was averaging 23.4 PPG on almost 50% shooting from 3??? The answer my friends - is NO.

Bibby's playing well. Flip (despite some in this thread talking about how much he's doing) is shooting 35.8 from the floor (worse than Joe). Horf is averaging 9 and 7. ZaZa is playing great - but is still averaging 7 and 7 on 42% shooting. Josh has been just ok.

Again - look at the C's vs. the Hawks. And consider that Joe is getting doubled 30 feet from the basket at times. Any time he hits one jumper, Miami calls a timeout lol. Joe's not in LeBron/Kobe/Wade's class - but due to supporting cast of the Hawks - Joe is being treated with more attention than we're giving Wade!!!

My dad - who has no rooting interest at all even brought this up. Why is Joe (who's not as good as Wade) being guarded with a triangle-and-two defense... but Wade (who's better than Joe) is getting Mo Evans, Flip Murray, Joe Johnson, and Mike Bibby in man-on-man coverage?

PP doesn't deal with triangle-and-twos.... so stop comparing the two.

6) I do want to end this marathon post (as most of mine are... it's a bit theraputic) with my dose of reality...

- It does annoy me that Joe seemingly "waits" for the double team to come. It kills me that they don't try to puch the pace a little bit. They're not getting any good action off that double... so why wait for it.

- I too, would like to see them put Joe in the post a bit more. It's easier for him to kick out, etc from the post instead of dribbling 35 feet away from the hoop.

- I too, would like to see Joe get a little cranky and take the ball to the hoop and draw some contact. Unfortunately in Game 6 - he tried to do this and drew an an offensive foul (and had to go sit down for the rest of the 1st quarter).

- I would love to see Joe get hyped/fired up... gesture to the crowd to "get up," etc... but that's not really how dude rolls. Never has been, I don't think it ever will.

and 3 more things:

1) in 04/05 - this team won 13 games.... it's 4 years later and Joe's been a 3 time all-star and we're a 4 seed in the Eastern Conference. Keep a little perspective people. If we win tomorrow - that will be our 1st 7 game series win in a LOOOOOONNNNNGGGG time. It hasn't been pretty, it's been a whole lotta annoying. But come tomorrow night - we're in the Elite 8 of the NBA. Seriously people - I know it's hard. DWade is the best player on the court when we play... and LeBron will be the best player on the court in the next round - but we're seeing 2 of the top 3 players in the NBA in these playoffs. Relax a bit.

2) Woodson won a title with the Pistons. Who was their best player? The answer... on any given night it was either Billips or Hamilton or Prince or Sheed. That's four guys, fellas. There were games where Billups was terrible but Prince carried them. Games in which Hamilton was terrible, but Sheed carried them. Games in which Prince and Hamilton were terrible but Billups was magnificent. I guess what I'm trying to say is - maybe that's what the Hawks are? Maybe it's time to stop looking at players as "our best" or "our second best" and just look at the Hawks as a team? Some nights Horford carries us, some nights it's Flip. Other nights it's Smoove or ZaZa or Bibby. Most nights it's Joe. Again - there are very few players that have the ability to single-handedly carry their team. We don't have that guy... neither do any of the 8 playoff teams in the East aside from Cleveland and Miami. You can't say Howard because he's got Lewis, and Turk (two players better than anything we have outside of Joe)... and Orlando clinched a series on the road without "Superman." But again - look at it as a team. I have a very good friend from Detroit. He looked at those Pistons teams as "The Pistons." He loved all of them... through thick and thin. He didn't want to trade Billups after a bad series. He didn't want to get rid of Rip after a bad series.

The amount of expectations you put on Joe are insane. You expect him to be LeBron when he's not. He's easy to phase out of a game/series because he's not good enough to beat double teams by himself... and he doesn't really have a supporting cast that makes defenses pay for running their triangle-and-two.

And reality is - next series is gonna be the exact same thing. Cavs whole defensive plan is to make someone other than Joe beat them. So instead of looking at it as a knock on Joe that he can't - look at it as some kind of flattery that he deserves that much attention and a knock on the players that he's playing with....

Go Hawks.

Mark

PS - I'm annoyed with Joe, too... but the hatred that man faces on this site is out of control.

[Jono]

Even so, why does that mean he has to be traded?

I'm with you. I think a Joe trade is neither a good solution nor would we get some exchange value. Joe is a really good player, but even no superstar. I think what disposes you to look for a joe-trade is that he hasn't played firmly in this series due to numerous doubleteams. He's just lost in a ugly system, it's like that. When he got the ball he got doubleteamed immediately and you saw the rest of the guys standing around. As Mike Woodson, you have to find a solution for that. It's up to him to train that with the team. Every time a guy get doubled one player has to be open: So move the ball fast and get an open look or freethrows for somebody else than joe. When the heat - or any team - notice that the double-team on joe is negative they'll let it be. So it's up to the whole roster in my opinion, to help joe.

But back to the topic: We rather need a consistent post player. We have al,marvin and josh, but none of them scores and rebounds consistently. I would like to see Chris Bosh in the Post alongside Joe.

[TheFormerJJBacker]

The Rockets would take a bag of chips and a rack of basketballs for Tmac. That means nothing.

One thing that allows them some wiggle room. PP GETS TO THE FOUL LINE when his jumper is off. If Joe's jumper is off, he's not going to score very often.

Those numbers are arguably better than JJ's CAREER PLAYOFF numbers. Paul probably has less offensive talent around him. Who else on that team can score other than West? Chandler? Posey? a past his prime Peja?

The only reason this team has improved it's win total is because the east has got weaker and weaker. Outside of the three above, there is not a good team in the conference. A team with as poor fundamentals as the hawks is NOT a good team. This team is a poor free throw shooting team and a much worse 3pt shooting team than what the stats suggest.

Well it didn't take long for the King of Hate to show up, did it? The one with Joe slouched over in disappointment after a missed freethrow vs. the Celtics in a regular season game as his little avatar/pic. How appropriate. What/who do you like? You almost take pleasure in a loss just so you get a chance to be negative.

I'm not sure why I'm even wasting my time replying because I'm fighting a battle that no-one can win... but here goes.

- I brought up the TMAC thing because that trade idea was the second post in this thread... that a user of this site would trade Joe for TMac... thought it was silly. Not bringing up a TMac trade randomly to make a point... just thought the 2nd post in this thread was funny.

- Agreed about PP getting to the line. It's also annoying as hell. He goes to the hoop and throws both arms to the air and screams (Andre Miller is good at that one, too). It helps PP get points - and it's something Joe needs to work on. But am I'm I gonna hate that Joe isn't a punk? Nope. Paul Pierce getting bailed out is an NBA problem.. an officiating problem. It has no place in the game. If that's what you want Joe to be - good for you... but I like (and find it a bit refreshing) that Joe just goes about his business without whining. He's a throwback in that way. In terms of recent history though - Joe did go to the line 15 times in Game 5... so maybe there's hope yet of him adding that wrinkle to his game. I agree with you - (as I state at the end of my post) that it would be nice to see Joe get cranky and take it to the hoop... but he gets jobbed into charging calls vs. free throws (see Game 2 bs charge early on that should have been an and-1... or Game 6 charge in the 1st quarter). I guess Joe will have to work on whining...

- My main point about CP3... again (I'm not sure if you read all of a post or just skim) - was that dude shot 41.1% in a first round series in which his team lost 4 of 5, including losing a 58-point home loss. There's been quite a few posts stating that "superstar" players don't shoot 41 percent in a series. Clearly, they do. There's talk of "no heart" on this site. A 58-point loss at home is well beyond anything we've seen in terms of the "no heart" department. The leader of that team? CP3. My point of bringing up his stats - was that Paul played like garbage in his playoff series despite being a "superstar." It does happen. Studs don't do well. In terms of supporting cast - we don't have anyone as good as David West. Tyson Chandler wasn't healthy this post-season... but he's just as good (if not better) than Horf. I'd take Horf if I were to choose... but they're pretty close. Peja (old or not) is better than Mo Evans. Rasual Butler doesn't have the scoring-in-bunches skills like Flip... so we'll get an advantage there. So - I wouldn't say Paul had less than Joe.

- Lastly you say that the Hawks improvement since 05 has nothing to do with anything other than how weak the East has gotten....

04/05 - 9 teams above .500; 2 teams with 50+ wins; 1 team with 55+ wins

05/06 - 7 teams above .500; 3 teams with 50+ wins; 1 team with 55+ wins

06/07 - 7 teams above .500; 2 teams with 50+ wins; 0 teams with 55+ wins

07/08 - 6 teams above .500; 3 teams with 50+ wins; 2 teams with 55+ wins

08/09 - 7 teams above .500; 3 teams with 50+ wins; 3 teams with 55+ wins

I'm not seeing a decline in the East. That 06/07 season was a joke with how terrible the East was... but our two playoff appearances occured in 07/08 and 08/09 - both seasons in which there were 3 teams with 50+ wins in the conference and the two highest amounts of 55+ winners over any of the years in question. I'm by no means saying that the East is better than the West as a whole - but I don't think your statement that the East has gotten worse holds much water.

Other things to consider (as it pertains to this claim that the East has declined) - East Playoff teams vs. Western conference:

04/05 - 120-120

05/06 - 126-114

06/07 - 118-122

07/08 - 132-108

08/09 - 147-93

Atlanta's record vs. West?

04/05 - 5-25

05/06 - 8-33

06/07 - 13-17

07/08 - 13-17

08/09 - 17-13

I would say that we owe an improvement from 06/07 - 07/08 to a down year in the East... but everything else suggest the East has improved over the past two years... as have we. Again - I don't think you'd be able to say that our record has improved for 4 straight years by virtue of how the East has got "weaker and weaker." If anything - the East has got "stronger and stronger" (at least over the past two years... and both of those are years in which the Hawks made the playoffs).

In terms of this claim of " A team with as poor fundamentals as the hawks is NOT a good team. This team is a poor free throw shooting team and a much worse 3pt shooting team than what the stats suggest."

Free-Throws:

04/05 NBA Champs: San Antonio (FT% - 72.41% - 26th in the NBA; 3-PT% - 36% - 8th in NBA)

05/06 NBA Champs: Miami (FT% - 69.96% - 29th in the NBA; 3-PT% - 3-PT% - 34% - 20th in NBA)

06/07 NBA Champs: San Antonio (FT% - 75.05% - 17th in the NBA; 3-PT% - 38% - 3rd in NBA)

07/08 NBA Champs: Boston (FT% - 77.07% - 8th in the NBA; 3-PT% - 38% - 5th in NBA)

08/09 Hawks: FT% - 73.72%; 3-PT% - 37%

So over the past 5 years - our current FT% is better than two NBA Championship teams, and our 3-PT% is better than 2 NBA Championship teams. Also of note - our current FT% is better than Orlando's this year - and they're the 3 seed.....

I agree that we seem to miss a lot of free-throws... and it's annoying. But we're 9th in the league in adjusted shot percentage... I'm not sure how we're "a much worse 3pt shooting team than what the stats suggest." Stats don't lie. As a team... for the year - we hit 37% of our threes... I'm not sure how there's a whole lot of wiggle room in that stat?

Hollinger rates us 10th in the league in offensive efficiency... that seems playoff worthy...

I agree that we do better agains crappier teams than we seem to do against better teams... but don't most teams?

Hotlanta - again... I know you like to hate. It's cool... but you're ranting around about how poor our fundamentals are - and then use FT % as some kind of indicator? We have a better FT% than 2 of the last 4 NBA CHAMPS.... I'm guessing they're not "good" in your book because they have a poor FT%?

To sum up Hotlanta - I'm not saying the 08/09 Hawks team is great. I'm not saying they're better than Cavs, Lakers, etc. I'm not saying Joe is the best player in the leauge.

I guess what I'm saying is... a little levity? Joe's not terrible. He doesn't have a top 30 contract - yet he's a top 30 player. The Hawks aren't great - but they are a 4 seed and have gotten better each year. They're still young. This series is annoying, for sure. I'd love to see Joe go for 40 as much as the next guy in a #2 jersey. All I've attempted to do with any of my posts tonight is say - it's not that bad.

I guess I'll ask pointed questions to help you out:

1) We've established the TMac post (that occured second in this thread) is garbage.

2) No-one has said Joe is as good as LeBron, Kobe, nor Wade. But who is? Would you agree that those 3 are pretty special? Special enough to deserve their own tier? (Hint: Answer is "yes")

3) Is it fair to say Joe is a top 7-8 player in the Eastern Conference? (Hint: Answer is "yes")

4) Have the Hawks lost at home by 58 while Joe goes 2 for 7 with more turnovers than points? (Hint: Answer is "no")

5) Can "superstars" shoot below 45 percent in a playoff series and still be considered a superstar? (Hint: Answer is "yes" - CP3 just shot 41.1, PP just shot 42.7)

6) Can we quit acting as if Paul Pierce was anything other than a scorer on mostly average to bad teams prior to last year?

7) Can we admit that Paul Pierce has a better supporting cast with Rajon (triple double for a series) and Ray (leading scorer for C's) than Joe does? (Hint: Answer "yes")

8) Can we say winning a 7 game series - no matter how annoying or ugly it is - is a (gasp) POSITIVE thing for the Hawks? I mean seriously people?????? How has a bunch of fans who haven't won a 7 game series in 20+ years find a negative in this? I mean really? WTF?

9) I think we all agree Joe should post up, Joe should get cranky, Joe should drive more, Joe should complain for fouls, Joe should take on a leadership role, etc. NO-ONE is arguing these points.

10) Can we admit the Hawks improvements isn't based on the East getting weaker?

11) Can we admit that there's more to winning a championship than FT%?

Lastly -

Can we all just band together and effing root for the effing Hawks on Sunday????

Can we all just embrace our squad that might do something some of the youngin's on this site have never seen? (win a 7 game series)

Can we all just root for our boys? Instead of hating them?

Can some of us change our avatars for Game 7 away from JJ looking dejected? I mean really? Hotlanta? If you're this critical now... where were you in 04/05? Where were you in 05/06? What about 06/07? Your team is a 4 seed... going against a 5 seed that features one of the 3 best players in the league. If you're this negative now... what did you do in 04/05?

Just for a day - just root our boys on. All of Hawksquawk. C'mon, man! Eff DWade. Eff the ESPN announcers. Eff Stu Scott. Let's rally and get a dub. Playoffs ain't about style points. They're all about advancing. Some of ya'll have got it twisted. And some of ya'll ain't got no love for the man that quietly shows up for work (on a sprained ankle, btw) and works. He doesn't mug for cameras. He doesn't stare anyone down. He doesn't call for players to knock other players out of games. He's our 3 time all-star that gets to go up against a triangle-and-two defense for most of the game....

And he's moving us into round two.

Get em JoJo!

Let's go Hawks! Let's go Hawks!

M

(and yes - I'm aware that the last bit was a bit cheeeeeeeezzzzy... but it's late, I'm tired... and honestly I'm just irritated with all the negativity around this board... I mean seriously - you're looking for style points in the playoffs? That's what title contenders are concerned with... shouldn't we be fairly happy getting into the second round for the first time this millenium???)

Edited May 3, 2009 by JJBacker

[Plainview1981]

- Agreed about PP getting to the line. It's also annoying as hell. He goes to the hoop and throws both arms to the air and screams (Andre Miller is good at that one, too). It helps PP get points - and it's something Joe needs to work on. But am I'm I gonna hate that Joe isn't a punk? Nope. Paul Pierce getting bailed out is an NBA problem.. an officiating problem. It has no place in the game. If that's what you want Joe to be - good for you... but I like (and find it a bit refreshing) that Joe just goes about his business without whining. He's a throwback in that way. In terms of recent history though - Joe did go to the line 15 times in Game 5... so maybe there's hope yet of him adding that wrinkle to his game. I agree with you - (as I state at the end of my post) that it would be nice to see Joe get cranky and take it to the hoop... but he gets jobbed into charging calls vs. free throws (see Game 2 bs charge early on that should have been an and-1... or Game 6 charge in the 1st quarter). I guess Joe will have to work on whining...

But he does what his got to do to try and get his team to win. Who cares about being a "throwback" if it doesn't lead to success? You know what they say about nice guys finishing last?

- My main point about CP3... again (I'm not sure if you read all of a post or just skim) - was that dude shot 41.1% in a first round series in which his team lost 4 of 5, including losing a 58-point home loss. There's been quite a few posts stating that "superstar" players don't shoot 41 percent in a series. Clearly, they do. There's talk of "no heart" on this site. A 58-point loss at home is well beyond anything we've seen in terms of the "no heart" department. The leader of that team? CP3. My point of bringing up his stats - was that Paul played like garbage in his playoff series despite being a "superstar." It does happen. Studs don't do well. In terms of supporting cast - we don't have anyone as good as David West. Tyson Chandler wasn't healthy this post-season... but he's just as good (if not better) than Horf. I'd take Horf if I were to choose... but they're pretty close. Peja (old or not) is better than Mo Evans. Rasual Butler doesn't have the scoring-in-bunches skills like Flip... so we'll get an advantage there. So - I wouldn't say Paul had less than Joe.

No doubt that a 58 point loss is a bad and I expect some to milk that one game for all it's worth. But CP lead them to a pretty damn good year last year. This year, they were held up by a broke down Peja and the exit of Pargo. That really hurt that team. Joe's play has been declining for about 2 seasons. With his performance so far in the playoffs, I doubt that is going to change next year either. On alot of days Josh can be or is as productive as West who is probably not as good as people make out.

Now... The east and fundamentals:

The east outside of the big three is nothing. While the Magic won a few more games this year, Washington and Detroit completely fell off. Before this season, the Hawks were lucky to beat Detroit once in a season. I can't remember the Hawks ever being that great against Toronto either. Who has completely fell off. C'mon.... Detroit falling off gave the Hawks atleast a couple of extra wins. Billups was why the Hawks have struggled to beat Detroit before. He would come up big in the 4th period. Washington is easier to beat than they have been in a while. The bucks were missing key players for alot of this year. Outside of a couple of good teams getting better, I don't see how the east is getting better.

Fundamentals.... Well, the stats suggest the Hawks are a good 3pt shooting team.... BUT.... Joe has shot the 3 ball poorly this year. Bibby had a really good shooting first half, but to me he hasn't been the same in the second half. In this series, the team has shot the 3 ball poorly. In the halfcourt set this team is failing to hit the 3. This series suggests the Hawks are not the shooting team they appear to be on the season stats. The lack of focus on foul shooting and overall lack of commitment to do the little things every night suggests this team doesn't value fundamentals.

As for the Hawks....

It's not like the Hawks actual play is that much better. The offense is not really any better at executing. This team is worse than before in terms of foul shooting. The defense has improved slightly. That's the only difference. The only thing this defense really does is try to keep wing players out of the paint and hope everybody misses their shots. That's this teams defensive gameplan. If a teams shots are on at all, the Hawks are f***ed most of the time. When they're not.... People shout: Great defense!

This team doesn't nothing right on a consistent basis. How many championship teams you know that do nothing right on a consistent basis? Most of the time this team plays a garbage offense. The same garbage offense they had 4 years ago. I'm not seeing a step up in quality here from 3 years ago. Coaching is alot of the problem. That's a huge part of it... The problem is ownership doesn't seem willing to fire Woody. Until I see REAL commitment from this franchise, I'm going to be critical. The commitment is not there from the owners or the players. I'm not putting faith into people that aren't committed. I'm not going to do it.

I admire what the Falcons did. They had a very good season last year.... Did they sit on that like the Hawks basically sat out this summer? No. They added a HOF player to their team. Do I have confidence that the Hawks will make moves this offseason to improve the team? NO.

I'm supposed to put faith into players that often play without effort? I find that extremely hard to do.

Edited May 3, 2009 by Hotlanta1981