Woody is a loser. Plain and simple.

[AHF]

Bigger picture than this one quote, Woodson has repeatedly set a low bar for the team in the press. This may be his philosophy due to the youth of the team but they aren't that young any more. I would like to see him stop saying things like how the team will be happy to advance one round in the playoffs and at least say something generic like:

"Look, I don't look that far down the road to predict how the Eastern Conference is going to finish. When I see this team I am excited by the potential we have. If we play hard every night and stick to the gameplan we put together, there isn't a team we can't beat. If we do that, my expectation coming into every game is that we are going to win and I want my team to have that same expectation. No one is going undefeated in the NBA, but this team should be ready to win each and every game the second they step on the floor. I am ready to go to war with these guys and am looking forward to spending some time with the staff and my team this summer so that we are ready to go when the season starts. This is an exciting year for Hawks basketball and the city of Atlanta."

I would prefer that to the lower ambition comments we have repeatedly seen in the press over the years. Personally, I don't want to hear another word publically from my coach that is a crutch for losing like talking about how young the team is or what an accomplishment it would be to win a first round matchup in the playoffs and then lose in the second round.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nobody is asking Woodson to lie and say we're championship contenders or anything. It's just common knowledge (at least I thought it was) that a coach shouldn't put a such a limit on the team's goals in July. If Woodson didn't routinely say stupid stuff I probably wouldn't think as much about it, but unfortunately we have arguably the biggest clown in the NBA leading our team.

You need to re-read the comments in this thread. That's exactly what they want to hear. If Woody said nothing, people would be upset about that as well.

So Woody had 2 options: 1) Tell the truth . . or 2) lie

He chose to tell the truth.

Now the crazy thing . . is that people on this board actually believe that Woody is going to tell the team all season that, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3, so we should simply settle for the #4 spot". That's what the fan base believes that he's telling the guys, which in turn, is somehow "making" the guys play at a level under what they should be playing at.

Woody set the goal last year of at least winning 50 games. I guess he was a loser for setting that goal too, instead of setting a goal of 55 - 60 wins. People will always find something wrong with what Woody does. It's funny to me.

Sometimes, people just need to step back, and see how things read on this board. It's incredible. We won 37 games a mere 2 years ago. Now people want us to contend for a championship, without making a major roster move or obtaining some superstar player in the draft? I can't ever remember that happening with any team, within a 2-year span.

Woody is a realist. And the fans hate him for it.

Edited July 14, 2009 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How many of you really believe he says that in the locker room? He said what he had to say to some reporter, but in the locker room he is telling his team that they are better than whoever they are playing, doesn't matter if it is Cleveland, LA, Boston, or Orlando. He is telling them they deserve to win and to go take victory. Do players on this team respect Woodson? Absolutly. Joe Johnson does. Mike Bibby does. Zaza does. I would even bet Josh Smith does. Josh was a kid when he got here and naturally rebels against the coach because he is like a father. The players said many times last year, even after losing a game, that the game plan was right, and they were unable to execute. Woody has obviously done his share of losing, but he has done what he can with the teams he has been given every year. He is still growing as a coach. The players are still growing as players. I can't wait to see how far we can go this year, the next year, and so on.

They definitely believe it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be saying the things that they are saying in this thread.

Woody was probably one of the few people in the entire world about 15 months ago, that believed that we could take a few games from the mighty Boston Celtics ( even after we got destroyed in Boston in those first 2 games ).

[AHF]

Now the crazy thing . . is that people on this board actually believe that Woody is going to tell the team all season that, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3, so we should simply settle for the #4 spot". That's what the fan base believes that he's telling the guys, which in turn, is somehow "making" the guys play at a level under what they should be playing at.

I think Woody's offense makes them play at a lower level than they should be playing at. I think saying, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3" in the media sends the wrong message to the team. This quote is not a dealbreaker by any means, though. It is a minor critique.

Woody set the goal last year of at least winning 50 games. I guess he was a loser for setting that goal to, instead of setting a goal of 55 - 60 wins

I don't remember Woody saying the goal was to win 50 last year, but I'll believe you if you say he did. He said on numerous other occasions things that set the bar lower than 50 wins, which is what I remember.

Sometimes, people just need to step back, and see how things read on this board. It's incredible. We won 37 games a mere 2 years ago.

We underachieved that season and should have won more, IMO. I would not use that 37 win season as a guiding post.

Now people want us to contend for a championship, without making a major roster move or obtaining some superstar player in the draft? I can't ever remember that happening with any team, within a 2-year span.

I agree we aren't championship caliber yet. I just want to hear my coach say anything that suggests that in the press.

Woody is a realist. And the fans hate him for it.

If Woody was an objective basketball analyst, I would kill him for saying the Hawks need to have the confidence to win the East this year. I am not as excited about my coach talking about players' limitation, the youthfulness of the team, and other excuses (sometimes legit) in the press for failing to lose. I want a message of confidence and high expectations because that is what all the great coaches project. They send a message that they will never be satisfied with a team that finishes second and that is far from the message in the press that we see.

Again, this is a minor issue and I don't hate Woodson for that. I despise his offense and have other substantive issues that are the source of any significant resentment I have for the guy.

Edited July 14, 2009 by AHF

[AHF]

Woody was probably one of the few people in the entire world about 15 months ago, that believed that we could take a few games from the mighty Boston Celtics ( even after we got destroyed in Boston in those first 2 games ).

He sent the right message during that playoff series. After the first win, it was reported that the message he put up in the locker room was "don't be satisfied." That needs to be the mantra and if that is what is being said behind closed doors then I am not excited about Woodson's comments because they undermine that message but at least he is telling the team the right thing.

[High5]

You need to re-read the comments in this thread. That's exactly what they want to hear. If Woody said nothing, people would be upset about that as well.

So Woody had 2 options: 1) Tell the truth . . or 2) lie

He chose to tell the truth.

Now the crazy thing . . is that people on this board actually believe that Woody is going to tell the team all season that, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3, so we should simply settle for the #4 spot". That's what the fan base believes that he's telling the guys, which in turn, is somehow "making" the guys play at a level under what they should be playing at.

Woody set the goal last year of at least winning 50 games. I guess he was a loser for setting that goal too, instead of setting a goal of 55 - 60 wins. People will always find something wrong with what Woody does. It's funny to me.

Sometimes, people just need to step back, and see how things read on this board. It's incredible. We won 37 games a mere 2 years ago. Now people want us to contend for a championship, without making a major roster move or obtaining some superstar player in the draft? I can't ever remember that happening with any team, within a 2-year span.

Woody is a realist. And the fans hate him for it.

How can people still blindly support Woodson like this? You don't seem to understand so I'm just going to leave it at that.

[DrReality]

I have a question about how much of Woody's coaching has been influenced by BK? Hard to tell. He is still a bonehead but I think that Sund has created an environment that is healthier. Or is this my imagination?

[HawkItus]

Bigger picture than this one quote, Woodson has repeatedly set a low bar for the team in the press. This may be his philosophy due to the youth of the team but they aren't that young any more. I would like to see him stop saying things like how the team will be happy to advance one round in the playoffs and at least say something generic like:

I would prefer that to the lower ambition comments we have repeatedly seen in the press over the years. Personally, I don't want to hear another word publically from my coach that is a crutch for losing like talking about how young the team is or what an accomplishment it would be to win a first round matchup in the playoffs and then lose in the second round.

Not calling you a liar, but I'd really like to see these instances where Woody set the bar low in quotes. Matter fact I'd settle for 3 such examples. Thanks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How can people still blindly support Woodson like this? You don't seem to understand so I'm just going to leave it at that.

I give Woody the benefit of the doubt. Always have on this board.

Year 1, he had nothing but Antoine Walker. No way we were winning close to 30 games with that squad . . so he got the benefit of the dobut

Year 2, we got JJ and had Harrington, surrounded by a bunch of kids . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 3, was a little disappointing, but the JJ injury in March kept our win total down than what it probably would've been . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 4, the injury bug hit this team, kind of throwing us off a little. But the Bibby trade saved us, and we won 3 playoff games . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 5, we improve dramatically and were a top 4 seed in the East, advanced to the 2nd round, but were hampered by injuries in the Cleveland series . . . so I DEFINITELY give him the benefit of the doubt.

So if in year 6 of "Woodyball" we win 50+ games and battle one of the Big 3 to the death in the 2nd round . . I have to give him the benefit of the doubt again. But he's going to be crucified on this board, if we don't make it to the Eastern Conference Finals . . . even if it's obvious that the Big 3 are better than we are.

I'm just interested in how he handles Crawford, because that will be his biggest challenge next year.

[RedDawg#8]

I understand everybody who is defending Woody right now, and as loyal fans thats very cool. Still, I do think that its a slap in the face to us fans who support this team and want this team to win it all one day. If we play like we did this past season then sure, we WOULD be lucky and happy to attain the 4th seed. The thing is, that if we play to our Maximum potential, this same roster CAN win a championship. Im so tired of us ATLANTANS always settling for average. We have beaten the likes of the Magic, Cavs, Lakers, Nuggets before. All 4 teams that were in the conference finals. Why cant we elevate our expectations to the point where we believe we can consistently win against them and anybody else for that matter. Who knows what will happen next year. If we play to our maximum potential:

Joe could be an MVP

Josh could be an all-star of Defensive player of they year

Crawford could be 6th man of the year

Bibby could lead the league in 3pt shooting

Marvin could become our 2nd leading scorer

Al could avg 15 and 10

We could win 55+ games

We could make to the finals

We could win it ALL

Who thought that the Magic would have made it to the finals THIS TIME LAST YEAR? or that Pistons would have won it all that year, or that Lebron would have led his Cavs to the finals in his 3rd/4th season (i forget which) or that the Heat would win it all on D-Wade's shoulders? Thats why you play the season, thats why you dont place 4th place expectations before you are even done filling out your roster. Anything can happen. Is it likely, probably not. but if you dont even TRY or Expect to acheive great things, the you will NEVER achieve them. But if you DO try and DO BELIEVE that those things can happen, then there is a CHANCE. and all 30 teams in the league start from the same place. its the ones that expect great things, who seperate themselves from the rest. Im tired of being "THE REST". I want us to start acting like we can win it all, thinking we can, and one day DOING IT

Edited July 14, 2009 by RedDawg#8

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I have a question about how much of Woody's coaching has been influenced by BK? Hard to tell. He is still a bonehead but I think that Sund has created an environment that is healthier. Or is this my imagination?

That's a good question. Another question is how much of his coaching has been influenced by not having a legit PG running the show here. I mean damn . . he had to use Childress as a pseudo-PG before, because of our PG problems.

The Hawks are 62 - 54 since the acquisition of Bibby. In the last 102 games, the Hawks are 58 - 44. Imagine the Hawks record, if we had just one legit guy we could throw the ball down low to, that could score on the low block?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I understand everybody who is defending Woody right now, and as loyal fans thats very cool. Still, I do think that its a slap in the face to us fans who support this team and want this team to win it all one day. If we play like we did this past season then sure, we WOULD be lucky and happy to attain the 4th seed. The thing is, that if we play to our Maximum potential, this same roster CAN win a championship. Im so tired of us ATLANTANS always settling for average. We have beaten the likes of the Magic, Cavs, Lakers, Nuggets before. All 4 teams that were in the conference finals. Why cant we elevate our expectations to the point where we believe we can consistently win against them and anybody else for that matter. Who knows what will happen next year. If we play to our maximum potential:

Joe could be an MVP

Josh could be an all-star of Defensive player of they year

Crawford could be 6th man of the year

Bibby could lead the league in 3pt shooting

Marvin could become our 2nd leading scorer

Al could avg 15 and 10

We could win 55+ games

We could make to the finals

We could win it ALL

Who thought that the Magic would have made it to the finals THIS TIME LAST YEAR? or that Pistons would have won it all that year, or that Lebron would have led his Cavs to the finals in his 3rd/4th season (i forget which) or that the Heat would win it all on D-Wade's shoulders? Thats why you play the season, thats why you dont place 4th place expectations before you are even done filling out your roster. Anything can happen. Is it likely, probably not. but if you dont even TRY or Expect to acheive great things, the you will NEVER achieve them. But if you DO try and DO BELIEVE that those things can happen, then there is a CHANCE. and all 30 teams in the league start from the same place. its the ones that expect great things, who seperate themselves from the rest. Im tired of being "THE REST". I want us to start acting like we can win it all, thinking we can, and one day DOING IT

That's the thing though Red. This team isn't going to play at a lesser level, simply because Woody said something about hoping to get the #4 seed. Matter of fact, Larry Brown is NOTORIOUS for doing the exact same thing that Woody does. Lou Holtz was bad as well about overhyping his opponent. That doesn't mean that they were setting the bar low for their teams.

LOL . . you have a lot of "if's" in that list. You're right, all of that could happen. It's not realistic to believe that, but it could happen.

Talk is cheap anyway. The only thing that matters is how this team plays on the court, not what they say off the court.

The next true hurdle for this team, is to be a .500 or better team on the road. Before that happens, no one should expect a "championship run". Maybe that's where a guy like Crawford can come up big for us, by coming up big on the road.

Right now, I see the Hawks in the same light as the Utah Jazz. We have a chance next year to become a 35 win home team. But like with the Jazz, it's gonna be the road games that will determine our fate and our seeding. And like the Jazz, were definitely behind the elite teams in our conference. But as the season progressees, we'll see where the chips fall.

[RedDawg#8]

Imagine the Hawks record, if we had just one legit guy we could throw the ball down low to, that could score on the low block?

No more excuses guys. LOSER'S make excuses.

2004 Finals, Detroit didnt make excuses. a team of 4 cast offs and a rookie SF Dominated against 4 Hall of FAME Players.

So what if our frontcourt is undersized,

Ben Wallce- 6'9 240 and Rasheed 6'11 230

vs

Shaq 7'1 325 and Carl Malone 6'9 259

so why cant

AL Horford- 6-10 245 and Josh Smith 6-9 240

win against

Shaq, Varajeo, Dwight, Lewis, Perkins, Garnett, Rasheed...etc

Why cant Joe and Bibby beat:

Nelson and Vince

Rondo and Allen

MO and West

Anything is possible, thats why you play the seson and not just settle for pre-season paper champs. F#$@ BOS, CLE, and ORL. F### DET, CHI, WAS. We have to go out and take what we want and stop playing down to people. Imagine if DET in 2004 decided to do what the world wanted and let Malone and Payton get their ring so they could retire. You cant base your succes off of other people expectations of you, but on your expectations of yourself. until we get this, we will never reach our potential. as that columnists said, we will be PETER PAN and never grow up. We will stay in NEVERLAND and watch the adults win the championship year after year while we are happy just playing for fun and the 4th seed.

Edited July 14, 2009 by RedDawg#8

[thefloydian]

You need to re-read the comments in this thread. That's exactly what they want to hear. If Woody said nothing, people would be upset about that as well.

So Woody had 2 options: 1) Tell the truth . . or 2) lie

He chose to tell the truth.

Now the crazy thing . . is that people on this board actually believe that Woody is going to tell the team all season that, "we're not good enough to beat the Big 3, so we should simply settle for the #4 spot". That's what the fan base believes that he's telling the guys, which in turn, is somehow "making" the guys play at a level under what they should be playing at.

Woody set the goal last year of at least winning 50 games. I guess he was a loser for setting that goal too, instead of setting a goal of 55 - 60 wins. People will always find something wrong with what Woody does. It's funny to me.

Sometimes, people just need to step back, and see how things read on this board. It's incredible. We won 37 games a mere 2 years ago. Now people want us to contend for a championship, without making a major roster move or obtaining some superstar player in the draft? I can't ever remember that happening with any team, within a 2-year span.

Woody is a realist. And the fans hate him for it.

This post is just wrong.

[DrReality]

To tell the truth I would not have wanted to be in his shoes with all the crap going on with ASG and Woody, Josh Smith, etc. Trying to stay focused in the midst of all that could not have been easy. Maybe things will turn the corner?

[AtLaS]

I give Woody the benefit of the doubt. Always have on this board.

Year 1, he had nothing but Antoine Walker. No way we were winning close to 30 games with that squad . . so he got the benefit of the dobut

Year 2, we got JJ and had Harrington, surrounded by a bunch of kids . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 3, was a little disappointing, but the JJ injury in March kept our win total down than what it probably would've been . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 4, the injury bug hit this team, kind of throwing us off a little. But the Bibby trade saved us, and we won 3 playoff games . . . so I gave him the benefit of the doubt

Year 5, we improve dramatically and were a top 4 seed in the East, advanced to the 2nd round, but were hampered by injuries in the Cleveland series . . . so I DEFINITELY give him the benefit of the doubt.

So if in year 6 of "Woodyball" we win 50+ games and battle one of the Big 3 to the death in the 2nd round . . I have to give him the benefit of the doubt again. But he's going to be crucified on this board, if we don't make it to the Eastern Conference Finals . . . even if it's obvious that the Big 3 are better than we are.

I'm just interested in how he handles Crawford, because that will be his biggest challenge next year.

This thinking is consistent with everyone who defends Woodson. You are only looking at the team record and nothing else. You refuse to acknowledge all of the individual faults in Woodson's coaching, but since we've improved every year in the win-loss department, you ignore them.

Just because our record has improved every year doesn't mean that we shouldn't have been even better. No, I agree we aren't as talented as the top 3, but I don't think we were 12 games worse than the 3rd place team. That should not be the only barometer when measuring a coach.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No more excuses guys. LOSER'S make excuses.

2004 Finals, Detroit didnt make excuses. a team of 4 cast offs and a rookie SF Dominated against 4 Hall of FAME Players.

So what if our frontcourt is undersized,

Ben Wallce- 6'9 240 and Rasheed 6'11 230

vs

Shaq 7'1 325 and Carl Malone 6'9 259

so why cant

AL Horford- 6-10 245 and Josh Smith 6-9 240

win against

Shaq, Varajeo, Dwight, Lewis, Perkins, Garnett, Rasheed...etc

Why cant Joe and Bibby beat:

Nelson and Vince

Rondo and Allen

MO and West

Anything is possible, thats why you play the seson and not just settle for pre-season paper champs. F#$@ BOS, CLE, and ORL. F### DET, CHI, WAS. We have to go out and take what we want and stop playing down to people. Imagine if DET in 2004 decided to do what the world wanted and let Malone and Payton get their ring so they could retire. You cant base your succes off of other people expectations of you, but on your expectations of yourself. until we get this, we will never reach our potential. as that columnists said, we will be PETER PAN and never grow up. We will stay in NEVERLAND and watch the adults win the championship year after year while we are happy just playing for fun and the 4th seed.

This is exactly what I, and others are talking about. You call that "loser talk". I call that "realism".

The reason why some people wouldn't mind trading Smith, is because he doesn't have a banger mentality to go up against the Howards, Shaqs, and Garnetts of the world. The reason why some people didn't want Bibby back, is because he can't guard the Nelsons, Mo Williams, Rondos of the world.

That's just realism man. Hope is good for a fan to have. But we also have to be real about things.

Hope is expecting Smoove to, all of a sudden, play like a badazz in the mold of Charles Oakley, when he plays more like Rashard Lewis ( without the jumpshot ). Hope is expecting JJ to play to the level of LeBron and Wade on a nightly basis. Hope is expecting Horford to be a dominant center on both offense and defense.

Let's deal with realism, before we get our hopes up. Being real, is to expect the Hawks to win 50 - 54 games next year . . . with at least an appearance in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Could we do better? Yes. But guys are going to have to dramatically improve, for us to be at championship level. That's just being real.

You bring up the Detroit example, but Detroit arguably constructed one of the best defensive teams of all time. And Wallace, while he loved to shoot jumpers, gave them an added dimension in the low post, that the team didn't have before. Plus he was a good post defender. That was all that team needed to get over the hump.

Enjoy next season. Go to the games in person. Cheer on the Hawks.

But the reason why people want to get a big man here, is because they know that's the one piece that we really need, if we're going to challenge legitimately for a title.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This thinking is consistent with everyone who defends Woodson. You are only looking at the team record and nothing else. You refuse to acknowledge all of the individual faults in Woodson's coaching, but since we've improved every year in the win-loss department, you ignore them.

Just because our record has improved every year doesn't mean that we shouldn't have been even better. No, I agree we aren't as talented as the top 3, but I don't think we were 12 games worse than the 3rd place team. That should not be the only barometer when measuring a coach.

And everybody who is against Woodson, flat out refuses to see that the team has steadily improved over the last 5 years, and totally discounts the playoff appearances . . simply because they hate Woody, and think this team could be better. No credit is given to Woody for anything . . . nada.

Everything that is wrong with this team, it's his fault.

Everything that is right with this team, is due to the players only.

Don't act like the Woody haters are objective, when it comes to talking about Woody, because they're not.

[AHF]

Not calling you a liar, but I'd really like to see these instances where Woody set the bar low in quotes. Matter fact I'd settle for 3 such examples. Thanks.

I'll give some from our 37 win season which was a dissappointment to me.

The season before we made the playoffs Woodson set the bar at being in the mix for the playoffs:

"If we play well and keep defending, we should be in the mix for a [playoff] spot."

After barely making the playoffs this was trumpted as something impressive:

"We made a hell of a run to get into the playoffs"

You got lucky and underachieved but were fortunate this was a historically weak year in the East for the final playoff spot. Note that the Hawks didn't even outplay their competition down the stretch or make a hot run. Had Indy won a couple games would we have been doubly screwed. Coming into that season 37 wins was enough to have made the playoffs only once in a non-strike year since the 1995-96 season.

During the playoff run his speech that was miked on television to the players concluded with:

“Lets go out there and TRY and win this one.”

After defending homecourt through 4 games, Woodson's note to the press was:

"It's unbelievable"

After winning only 37 games with that bunch, Woodson went on the radio and said they couldn't have done any better in the regular season.

Here is the quote. You can add your own incredulous voice when he responded to the notion that the team could have won more than 37 games.

790"But you can understand why people would say they aren't satisfied with where this franchise is."

Woodson: "Wh, wh, why should I understand."

790: [Points out progress of New Orleans from a similar starting point a few years ago.]

"People are going to say that with the talent on this team it should be better than 37 wins."

Woodson: "Who says we are overly talented? I mean really?"

790: "I think..."

Woodson: "I think we have a talented team but we still have a fairly young team that is trying to learn how to win. And that is huge in this league..."

If you can find the interview, you will hear that Woodson basically was saying: "Who thinks this team was talented enought to win more than 37 games, give me a break."

[HawkItus]

I'll give some from our 37 win season which was a dissappointment to me.

The season before we made the playoffs Woodson set the bar at being in the mix for the playoffs:

After barely making the playoffs this was trumpted as something impressive:

You got lucky and underachieved but were fortunate this was a historically weak year in the East for the final playoff spot. Note that the Hawks didn't even outplay their competition down the stretch or make a hot run. Had Indy won a couple games would we have been doubly screwed. Coming into that season 37 wins was enough to have made the playoffs only once in a non-strike year since the 1995-96 season.

During the playoff run his speech that was miked on television to the players concluded with:

After defending homecourt through 4 games, Woodson's note to the press was:

After winning only 37 games with that bunch, Woodson went on the radio and said they couldn't have done any better in the regular season.

Here is the quote. You can add your own incredulous voice when he responded to the notion that the team could have won more than 37 games.

If you can find the interview, you will hear that Woodson basically was saying: "Who thinks this team was talented enought to win more than 37 games, give me a break."

I don't agree with those quotes setting the bar low, but we can agree to disagree. But, even with the team returning and having a some playoff action, most experts had pretty much that same team Woody said wasn't overly talented going 38 to 40 wins last year. This even though we lost one of our top 8 players in Childress. But, seeing that Woody set the bar for 4th in the East. That's a pretty large increase in expectations to me.