My take on "The problem with Marvin"

[gsuteke]

We aren't using him appropriately.

The Hawks don't capitalize on what the guy is good at, which is getting to the rim and subsequently the foul line. Wasn't it Chad Ford in his eternal Hawks Hate who wrote a piece on how Marvin gets to the line at an astounding rate?

Think about this -

Marvin can post up SFs with ease with his body type.

Marvin can catch the ball from 10 to 14 feet out and face his man up. His handles aren't the best in the world but he's demonstrated he can drive the basketball if he chooses to do so. By the time he's in the cylinder in traffic he may have the ball stripped before getting a shot off 5 times out of 10 but he'll also draw a foul 4 of those times in that situation. You know this, you've seen it over and over again as a Hawks fan.

Marvin is our "Big" that initiates contact with defenders. When Marvin hits the lane the whistle is sure to follow.

So why isn't Marvin posting up as opposed to camping out on the 3 point line in the corner waiting for the ball to get swung around to him as the shot clock is expiring?

God bless him - he worked on his 3 point shot and it's highly effective when it's going down but wouldn't he be much more effective with twice the touches in a different role?

Mike Bibby can sit on that 3 point line on the opposite side of the floor while Joe is dribbling the ball on the wing. When the help goes to Joe as it always does he can pass the ball to Marvin in the post. From there Marvin has the option to back his man down, turn and shoot, or turn - face his man up and drive, kick it out to Bibby for 3, or find Smoove on the backside for a dunk since the Defensive is overloaded on Marvin and Joe's side at that point.

That's how you attack defenses as opposed to having them attack your weakness - which happens to be our front court size.

Why ask Smoove to play the post when he doesn't want to do it? Especially when you've got a guy that may be better suited to do it anyway.

So that's my 2 cents. The guy isn't being used correctly.

Edited November 4, 2009 by gsuteke

[exodus]

Marvin's real problem is that he can't create space off the dribble and then shoot a jumper reliably. While people have always praised Marvin's form i am not a fan of it. A pure shooter doesn't have to be squared up completely to make shots. Marvin does. His release point is too low and in front of him.

There is only one ball and since we have so many guys who can score that is going to hurt the individual stats at times. Neither Bibby or Marvin is averaging 10 ppg right now.

The big key for me with Marvin is 3 pt shooting. He needs to consistently hit open threes and he needs to look for those opportunities. He has a good jump hook in the post but it is hard to feed him consistently in the post because he is weak and we also have Horford and Smith on the floor so spacing won't be very good with Marvin in the post.

[gsuteke]

Marvin's real problem is that he can't create space off the dribble and then shoot a jumper reliably. While people have always praised Marvin's form i am not a fan of it. A pure shooter doesn't have to be squared up completely to make shots. Marvin does. His release point is too low and in front of him.

There is only one ball and since we have so many guys who can score that is going to hurt the individual stats at times. Neither Bibby or Marvin is averaging 10 ppg right now.

The big key for me with Marvin is 3 pt shooting. He needs to consistently hit open threes and he needs to look for those opportunities. He has a good jump hook in the post but it is hard to feed him consistently in the post because he is weak and we also have Horford and Smith on the floor so spacing won't be very good with Marvin in the post.

All valid points.

Would you not agree though that someone has to atleast show a post threat?

Otherwise when the jumper ain't falling guess what -

Smoove isn't willing to do it, Al isn't big enough to do it against bigger 4s and most 5s. Marvin has the skill-set to make it work to some degree.

[exodus]

All valid points.

Would you not agree though that someone has to atleast show a post threat?

Otherwise when the jumper ain't falling guess what -

Smoove isn't willing to do it, Al isn't big enough to do it against bigger 4s and most 5s. Marvin has the skill-set to make it work to some degree.

The Hawks have been scoring in the paint pretty well they just aren't doing it in the conventional way. They dropped 50 pts in the paint last night against a tall front line. Al could definitely score in the paint against other bigs if he set his mind to driving. He is showing signs of it here and there. Smith just needs to stop jacking long jumpers.

I would be more inclined to post Marvin when he is in with some bench players. Joe Smith can take a big outside to clear the paint a bit. The paint will be too crowded with Smith and Horford on the floor.

[Traceman]

All valid points.

Would you not agree though that someone has to atleast show a post threat?

Otherwise when the jumper ain't falling guess what -

Smoove isn't willing to do it, Al isn't big enough to do it against bigger 4s and most 5s. Marvin has the skill-set to make it work to some degree.

I think Marvin has the talent to score both inside and out and the matchup he is facing should determine what he does. If he has a smaller guy on him, take him inside. If he has a bigger guy, take him outside. If the jumper is not falling though, he should always try and get to the basket because he is one of those guys who seems to be able to draw fouls on a consistent basis.

[HawkNJersey]

All valid points.

Would you not agree though that someone has to atleast show a post threat?

Otherwise when the jumper ain't falling guess what -

Smoove isn't willing to do it, Al isn't big enough to do it against bigger 4s and most 5s. Marvin has the skill-set to make it work to some degree.

I believe Smoove wants to and is capable of posting up. He did it on 2 consecutive possessions last night, both against L.A. and both ending in baskets. Part of the problem is, his number is not being called to do so. From my count, only 5 plays were ran...with the intention of getting him the ball, last night. We are consistently running the same Flex plays over and over, all design to get the ball to Bibby and JJ for jump shots.

I agree Marv could be a post threat, if used properly...but so could JJ, Smoove and Horf. On its face, it looks like a good problem to have, but limited opportunities don't allow any use of potential for anyone, but JJ. T

[Buzzard]

We aren't using him appropriately.

The Hawks don't capitalize on what the guy is good at, which is getting to the rim and subsequently the foul line. Wasn't it Chad Ford in his eternal Hawks Hate who wrote a piece on how Marvin gets to the line at an astounding rate?

Think about this -

Marvin can post up SFs with ease with his body type.

Marvin can catch the ball from 10 to 14 feet out and face his man up. His handles aren't the best in the world but he's demonstrated he can drive the basketball if he chooses to do so. By the time he's in the cylinder in traffic he may have the ball stripped before getting a shot off 5 times out of 10 but he'll also draw a foul 4 of those times in that situation. You know this, you've seen it over and over again as a Hawks fan.

Marvin is our "Big" that initiates contact with defenders. When Marvin hits the lane the whistle is sure to follow.

So why isn't Marvin posting up as opposed to camping out on the 3 point line in the corner waiting for the ball to get swung around to him as the shot clock is expiring?

God bless him - he worked on his 3 point shot and it's highly effective when it's going down but wouldn't he be much more effective with twice the touches in a different role?

Mike Bibby can sit on that 3 point line on the opposite side of the floor while Joe is dribbling the ball on the wing. When the help goes to Joe as it always does he can pass the ball to Marvin in the post. From there Marvin has the option to back his man down, turn and shoot, or turn - face his man up and drive, kick it out to Bibby for 3, or find Smoove on the backside for a dunk since the Defensive is overloaded on Marvin and Joe's side at that point.

That's how you attack defenses as opposed to having them attack your weakness - which happens to be our front court size.

Why ask Smoove to play the post when he doesn't want to do it? Especially when you've got a guy that may be better suited to do it anyway.

So that's my 2 cents. The guy isn't being used correctly.

I do think Marvin could develop a post game similar to Al Harringtons; in fact I think he showed flashes of it last season when JJ or Smoove were out. But until we use him in that manner, his role will always be the sharpshooter on the perimeter that keeps the defensive spacing somewhat honest.

I don't think Harrington would florish in Woodys offense as well as he does in NY. Sharing the ball outside of our guards is just not done until one of them is dbl or trpl teamed; then Smoove or Marvin become the only open option. Crawford is different from Bibby and JJ though.

JJ and Bibby when they drive the lane its almost always to shoot first and pass second. Crawford in the lane looks to pass almost as much as shoot. And he gets by his man much quicker which gives him more time and space before the dbl team gets there to look for the open player. I love the way he uses Horford and ZaZa in this manner.

Crawford probably has as many assist to Horf and ZaZa as JJ and Bibby combined.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Buzzard

[Buzzard]

I believe Smoove wants to and is capable of posting up. He did it on 2 consecutive possessions last night, both against L.A. and both ending in baskets. Part of the problem is, his number is not being called to do so. From my count, only 5 plays were ran...with the intention of getting him the ball, last night. We are consistently running the same Flex plays over and over, all design to get the ball to Bibby and JJ for jump shots.

I agree Marv could be a post threat, if used properly...but so could JJ, Smoove and Horf. On its face, it looks like a good problem to have, but limited opportunities don't allow any use of potential for anyone, but JJ. T

You nailed it. Woodys' idea of getting Marvin and Smoove involved is to have Bibby or JJ pass the ball once the shot clock has ran down and the dbl team has arrived. They both need to penetrate earlier; and that way if nothing is there, give the rock up or pull out, reset, and go again.

We almost never get into our offense soon enough (dribble, dribble, dribble as the clock runs down) and for a team with our quicks that is just sad.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Buzzard

[HawkNJersey]

You nailed it. Woodys' idea of getting Marvin and Smoove involved is to have Bibby or JJ pass the ball once the shot clock has ran down and the dbl team has arrived. They both need to penetrate earlier; and that way if nothing is there, give the rock up or pull out, reset, and go again.

We almost never get into our offense soon enough (dribble, dribble, dribble as the clock runs down) and for a team with our quicks that is just sad.

If you think about it, our guards are the two slowest players in the starting unit and neither one of them are one dribble penetraters. JJ, according to Kenny Smith...requires 5 dribbles to make a move. And Bibby? Word is, last time he was here in Philly, he attempted a cross-over against the Rocky statue and the statue took a charge. We look much different when Craw is the lead guard, cause his first step is explosive and he gets into the lane with ease.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

One of the things that I said when we acquired Joe Smith, is that I thought that Marvin was still a better PF than Joe was. Whenever Smoove was hurt, most of the time it was Marvin who started at PF. It's bad enough for Marvin to have to look at 3 guards who like to shoot the basketball. Now, he even has Joe Smith taking his minutes at PF.

When Marvin plays the 4, he can do all of the things you talked about. He played well last year when he played the 4.

Technically, he could still do it at the 3. The problem though is spacng. If you post Marvin, and have Horford on the other side, and have Josh Smith somewhere out on the wing, 2 things could happen:

1) the defense simply decides to play Marvin straight up, with maybe help coming from Horford's man on the other side, and see if Marvin can score.

2) Marvin catches the ball in the post, and the man guarding Josh Smith races over to double Marvin, leaving Smoove wide open.

If I'm the the opposing team, I'm doing #2, and leaving Smoove open for the long jumper. I'm making him make that shot, instead of letting Marvin go against a smaller SF.

But I think what Marvin has to do ( and I mentioned this in another post ), is to adopt a Josh Childress mentality, when he's not having plays called for him or the ball swung his way. Because Chill used to camp out by the 3-point line on the baseline as well. But when that shot went up, he was crashing the offensive glass HARD. With Marvin's length and bulk, I don't see why he couldn't do the same thing.

As the season progresses, he's going to have to become our "energy guy", while still knocking down open shots and taking the ball to the hole. If Woody isn't going to make a point to use him on offense, he needs to find ways to get his offense on his own.

You would think that since he plays the wing, that he'd get a lot more fast break dunks by filling the wing. But it's Smoove and Horford that seems to be out on the break receiving passes for dunks.

Sucks for Marvin, but he's just going to have to start converting on every limited opportunity he gets. If he takes that 1st three, make sure he makes it. If he makes his 2nd straight three, you may see his teammates start looking for him, to make that 3rd straight three.

He's just going to have to help himself out. If I'm Marvin, I'm taking every wide open jumper or path to the hole I see, to try to generate offense. But he's going to have to want to do that.

Edited November 4, 2009 by northcyde

[Wurider05]

I see several points that need to be considered.

*when Marvin gets the back he is usually at the three point line a few inches from being out of bounds. the makes him easier to guard. If the defender is right up on him there is no way he can drive to the basket.

*The ball rarely goes into the post and comes back out.

* He doesn't move around enough. he is always in the same spot.

* he doesn't get the ball in a good spot.

*Marvin is to unselfish. You see how Horf tries to get his despite who is calling for the ball. Same with Smooth.

There isn't enough shots to go around. I think that what we are going to see is that on many different nights we may have different top scorers.

When you aren't scoring regardless of the reason you need to step up in other areas.

[MaceCase]

Does this thread have anything to do with Marvin being guarded extensively in the 4th last night by Rudy Fernandez, calling for the ball and never receiving it in the post? Because that was the moment that first popped into my head reading this thread. He has Des Mason tonight (unless Westphal starts Nocioni to match up) so we will see if that strategy is at least attempted.

[gsuteke]

Does this thread have anything to do with Marvin being guarded extensively in the 4th last night by Rudy Fernandez, calling for the ball and never receiving it in the post? Because that was the moment that first popped into my head reading this thread. He has Des Mason tonight (unless Westphal starts Nocioni to match up) so we will see if that strategy is at least attempted.

No. I fell asleep in the 2nd quarter.

I think my argument for putting Marvin in the post is compelling. You take a player that really doesn't have a fit offensively and put him in a position where he could really shine.

The guy is supposed to be supremely talented - I think he can do more than camp out on the 3 point line.

[buckeye242424]

No. I fell asleep in the 2nd quarter.

I think my argument for putting Marvin in the post is compelling. You take a player that really doesn't have a fit offensively and put him in a position where he could really shine.

The guy is supposed to be supremely talented - I think he can do more than camp out on the 3 point line.

We would have seen it by now. He's not.

He's a good player, and I like him on the team he's on. His production will pick up. It's early. I do think he could be more productive if the people running the show had more creativity, but he's a dime a dozen around the NBA.

[mattlanta]

The thought of Marvin banging bodies with other players in the league somewhat frightens me. He can barely keep a hold on the ball when he drives to the rim. Every time he drives hard to the rim it seems like he always finds a way to lose control of it. This has been happening for a long time now, not just this year either. He needs to have better body control and needs to improve ball handle... that's what his problem is.

[Buzzard]

We would have seen it by now. He's not.

He's a good player, and I like him on the team he's on. His production will pick up. It's early. I do think he could be more productive if the people running the show had more creativity, but he's a dime a dozen around the NBA.

14 and 6 is not a dime a dozen lol. Go find me some small forwards who average at least 14 ppg and 6 rpg then come back with how many dimes you have. You will find a good many dimes that average 14 ppg...you will find less that average 6 boards a game...but here is a hint of how many you find that do both.....they will fit on less than two hands! If you want to nit pick then lets just say 13.9 and 6.3....

[DrReality]

I am appreciative of objective criticism. (without it being contaminated by you know who)

[buckeye242424]

14 and 6 is not a dime a dozen lol. Go find me some small forwards who average at least 14 ppg and 6 rpg then come back with how many dimes you have. You will find a good many dimes that average 14 ppg...you will find less that average 6 boards a game...but here is a hint of how many you find that do both.....they will fit on less than two hands! If you want to nit pick then lets just say 13.9 and 6.3....

I've never wanted to "nit pick". I'm just stating that Marv is not "supremely talented". I like having Marvin Williams on the Hawks. He has strenghts on offense and defense. But he doesn't stand out. He blends in. There's nothing special in his game.

[FrankWhite]

Marvin played well tonight. He's an asset in the post and we should exploit that more often.

[Buzzard]

I've never wanted to "nit pick". I'm just stating that Marv is not "supremely talented". I like having Marvin Williams on the Hawks. He has strenghts on offense and defense. But he doesn't stand out. He blends in. There's nothing special in his game.

Marvin blends in with us. Sure he does...one of the special things about Marvin is he could do that with any team. Another special thing is I was not kidding about SF's who average better than 14ppg and 6rpg. There are less than a dozen of them in all of the NBA.

Most posters here would rather see Marvin avg 16 ppg and 5 rpg; I am not one of them. As long as we have one of the weakest rebounding teams in the NBA, give me the extra board over the extra made shot any game we play. We have plenty of offense to make up for one shot Marvin did not take and make, we as a team almost never get enough rebounds.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Buzzard