Sund's job is incomplete

[Traceman]

im all for signing avery johnson, hes just waiting for his next gig.

Yeah let's sign Avery Johnson. He wouldn't play Devin Harris, you think Teague would develop under him? His players, including his superstar, HATED him which is why Cuban let him go. Think Woody is inflexible? When you look up inflexible in the dictionary, there is a picture of Avery next to the word. Kidd couldn't even play well under that guy. As soon as Avery left, he went back to being J Kidd.

If that's not enough, his team got embarassed by a FAR less talented GS team in the first round of the playoffs. Avery is okay but it's not like he is some great X's and O's guy. Cuban hired him because DAL's defense was so terrible under Nellie. Not sure their D was much better and their offense was much worse.

[buckeye242424]

The Hawks have 2 players who can consistently exploit a matchup with a below average defender. The Hawks have absolutely no post threat whatsoever. How many options do you really think that Woodson has? Let JJ or Crawford initiate the offense while Marvin and Bibby space the floor and hurt teams if they double. Use active bigs to set screens and flash to the basket. I really don't see what else you can do. bibby's days of initiating the offense are done. Marvin has never shown the ability to initiate the offense. The Hawks have one of hte top offenses in the league in spite of all this yet you are still bitching because the offense isn't "pretty" enough?! Seriously. The league with the handchecking rules has made it virtually impossible to stop Joe or Crawford 1 on 1 yet you don't want to see the team run that even though its working. Just amazing.

I'm sorry you think it's insane for me to expect more. I watch a lot of NBA, and I've never seen so much one-on-one in my life. It's frustrating. We can agree to disagree.

[HawkItus]

I'm sorry you think it's insane for me to expect more. I watch a lot of NBA, and I've never seen so much one-on-one in my life. It's frustrating. We can agree to disagree.

Didn't you watch portland Monday? or Boston on Friday? They played the same way.

[buckeye242424]

Didn't you watch portland Monday? or Boston on Friday? They played the same way.

Against Portland, Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson we're a combined 15-41. Most coming in the half court. Smoove and Horf we're a combined 15-24. Most coming on second chance points and transition. We're winning because we have better players than most teams. We're winning because we're more athletic. Which is great! I love it! Doesn't negate the fact when we're forced to slow down, and be in the halfcourt on offense, we look like an AND 1 team.

[jerrywest]

Against Portland, Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson we're a combined 15-41. Most coming in the half court. Smoove and Horf we're a combined 15-24. Most coming on second chance points and transition.

That means JJ+Crawford missed more shots than Smoove+Al took. All those offensive tips jacked up Smoove+Al's attempts.

[Traceman]

Against Portland, Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson we're a combined 15-41. Most coming in the half court. Smoove and Horf we're a combined 15-24. Most coming on second chance points and transition. We're winning because we have better players than most teams. We're winning because we're more athletic. Which is great! I love it! Doesn't negate the fact when we're forced to slow down, and be in the halfcourt on offense, we look like an AND 1 team.

More talented? Coming into this season, I'll bet you couldn't find 5 coaches or GMs in the NBA who would take our roster over Portland's. Probably still won't. Yet we are 2-0 against them.

And 1 team in the halfcourt? Check out this quote from a recap of the most recent BOS game:

Looking similar to the upstart Hawks that pushed Boston to seven games in the opening playoff series in 2008, Atlanta looked poised in its half-court offense, converting against the league's best defensive team.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291113002

How about this quote from Doc Rivers after the BOS game:

I just thought they played with an amazing amount of speed, power, passion and execution,” Rivers said. “I thought they were better prepared. I thought they were better focused.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?&articleid=1211873&format=&page=1&listingType=celt#articleFull

How about this quote from KG after the BOS game:

"They’ve been together," said Kevin Garnett. "Their core’s been together for a while. They know each other. They’ve added pieces to this team that fits. They’ve improved. They have confidence. They believe in their system and their core is still together, so nothing surprises me about the improvement of this team."

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/

How about this quote from KG:

Said Kevin Garnett, “They’re a different type team, they’re isolation. First time we’ve really seen isolation basketball like this. They’ve improved.

“They spread you out one-on-one, it’s a lot of isolation basketball. Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson, those are two of the best at that. Kudos to them. They beat us up.

“When you’ve got a guy going one-on-one and we’re trapping and they crash, they’ve got all four guys, those guys are keeping balls alive. Some nights it bounces your way and you get them and [last] night they were the ones to all the balls and they got easy second-chance points. And, when you get outrebounded, 47-29, that makes it difficult to win.’’

Sounds to me like isolation basketball has it's place when it is used properly. It shouldn't be the ONLY thing you do (and it's not in Woody's system), but even good, sound defensive teams struggle to defend isolation plays when you have great one on one players who are unselfish (JJ & Crawford) combined with super athletes and shooters.

[spotatl]

THe Hawks are winning because they have had one of the top offenses in the league this season. (#3 last I saw) There are 2 thoughts. First would be that if another coach were letting Marvin, Horford, and bibby initiate the offense more then they would have by far the best offense in the league this year. THe other is that by having those players initiate the offense more that they wouldnt be nearly as effective as Joe and Crawford and the Hawks would have been worse on offense. I think you have to be crazy to think that just because of coaching the Hawks SHOULD have the best offense in the league. Seriously- the Hawks have a top 3 offense in the league and you are bitching about the offense. You need to get a grip on reality. What they are doing is working even if its not pretty enough for you.

Edited November 18, 2009 by spotatl

[buckeye242424]

More talented? Coming into this season, I'll bet you couldn't find 5 coaches or GMs in the NBA who would take our roster over Portland's. Probably still won't. Yet we are 2-0 against them.

And 1 team in the halfcourt? Check out this quote from a recap of the most recent BOS game:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291113002

How about this quote from Doc Rivers after the BOS game:

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?&articleid=1211873&format=&page=1&listingType=celt#articleFull

How about this quote from KG after the BOS game:

http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/extras/celtics_blog/

How about this quote from KG:

Sounds to me like isolation basketball has it's place when it is used properly. It shouldn't be the ONLY thing you do (and it's not in Woody's system), but even good, sound defensive teams struggle to defend isolation plays when you have great one on one players who are unselfish (JJ & Crawford) combined with super athletes and shooters.

I hope. I haven't known that philosophy to be a staple for success, but whatever. It's my beef, something I'd like to see differently.

[spotatl]

You'd like the Hawks offense to be less ISO heavy even if it meant they had the 10th best offense in the league instead of a top 3 offense? Seriously... based on the Hawks talent on offense where do you think with good coaching the Hawks should rank? I think the team is overperforming to be a top 3 offense and the coach should get credit for that

[niremetal]

You'd like the Hawks offense to be less ISO heavy even if it meant they had the 10th best offense in the league instead of a top 3 offense? Seriously... based on the Hawks talent on offense where do you think with good coaching the Hawks should rank? I think the team is overperforming to be a top 3 offense and the coach should get credit for that

Right now, I agree. The concern that a lot of people have, though (myself included), is that once the playoffs arrive, teams will be able to break our offense down. It's much easier to scheme against an ISO offense than one that has a lot of ball movement.

[Swatguy]

What the heck has D'Antoni won? What has Avery done? Lawrence Frank got an extention. And you wonder why Joe has not signed while his coach may not be here.

Picture this, Hawks do not sign Woody and New Jersey gives him the moon. Joe gone. Woody goes with Indiana, Detroit, New Orleans, Memphis, or Minny. All would see Joe in there sights.

Besides, he has Earned it. As well as his staff. What has D'Antoni done? What is he doing? Stuart Smith mentioned last night that No one calls on Woody as nothing but a very good coach. Some of you guys have personal hate towards the man beyond basketball, 'cause he is a good coach.

[Swatguy]

I hope. I haven't known that philosophy to be a staple for success, but whatever. It's my beef, something I'd like to see differently.

PlayStation.

In reality, defense wins.

[spotatl]

This is just an issue I have with NBA fans in general. THe NBA has pretty much made it illegal to guard someone 1 on 1 but you want teams to run the same offenses they did 20 years ago because they are prettier? Ridiculous. Find me guys who can exploit a weak defender 1 on 1- put 3 point shooters around him and lets abuse that mismatch over and over and over until the defense has to make a change. Then you reasses- find the next best matcup you can consistently get and abuse it over and over and over. NBA teams make it far too complicated because they think thats the way its supposed to be done. And seriously- you have the proof of that right here. Even when the Hawks have a top 3 offense in the league people are still whining about how its not a pretty enough offense. I just think its so ridiculous.

Honestly I think that a coach is doing a good job to have a top 10 offense with the personnel the Hawks have. To complain about Woodson when the Hawks have a top 3 offense is just ignorant to me.

[AHF]

That's not the way I feel an NBA team should run an offense.

Agreed.

Woodson still has work to do but is showing he can make this team successful under his guidance this season. I am not his biggest fan but I will be happy to give him an extension if these guys can keep it up.

[Traceman]

Right now, I agree. The concern that a lot of people have, though (myself included), is that once the playoffs arrive, teams will be able to break our offense down. It's much easier to scheme against an ISO offense than one that has a lot of ball movement.

Once the playoffs begin, it will be MUCH harder to execute an offense than it is now because players defend with so much more focus and intensity. Guys who can create their own shots and/or make big shots versus great D are INVALUABLE in the playoffs.

Winning and losing in the playoffs comes down to who can create and exploit the most individual mismatches. It is hard to scheme and stop a great one on one player when he gets it going, no matter what the setting. That's another reason I think Jamaal is going to be a HUGE addition to this team. You can't double JJ AND Jamaal at the same time without leavng somebody WIDE open, regular season OR playoffs.

[DominoT]

I would argue that the Hawks' half court offense has many more possible outcomes than other good teams' offenses. The Lakers, Cavs, and Heat consistently see one guy pound the ball and go for 25+ every night. We consistently have 5 or 6 with double digit points. We pass in to the low post a lot, and Josh gets a lot of assists because of that. He's exciting to watch this year, because he's seeing perimeter shooters get open as he drives. Our half court offense does end up being 1on1 a chunk of the time, but no more than anyone else's. We spread the ball around a lot, create a diverse array of plays, and of course have a ridiculous transition game. All in all it's an exciting, powerful package. It doesn't involve fancy set plays with multiple players shifting around away from the ball as much, but it does involve a team effort with multiple players consistently racking up assists (as opposed to the Suns, who have one playmaker).

And you can see Woodson at work there. I'm not sure you can design an offense that exploits the wildly varied offensive styles of each of our players. Josh, Al, Joe, Mike, and Marvin all have totally different methods of scoring. And since they've played together for a while now, they know what each other can do. It's kind of absurd to have a rigid idea of what an aesthetically pleasing NBA offense should be and criticize a 10 - 2 team's offense for not matching a preconceived conceptual model that has no basis in reality. A reality that has been years in the making.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It is amazing, isn't it? An offensive "genius" like Mike D'Antoni, doesn't look so good when he has Chris Duhon running his offense, as opposed to Steve Nash . . who makes Alvin Gentry look like a genius these days.

Give a coach better players and time for his kids to "grow up", and Voila . . you have a decent team.

In the half court offense, Josh Smith and Al Horford are still guys you can't dump the ball to down on the blocks, and expect them to convert. They're getting better, but a guy like Paul Milsap is still a better low post scorer down on the blocks.

As I mentioned earlier this week in a thread Exodus started, Josh Smith is taking around 1/2 of his shots within 8 seconds elasping off the shot clock, shooting a very high percentage.

What does that mean?

It means that he's running the floor every chance he gets, and is getting a ton of easy buckets in the paint. And those easy buckets are usually coming after a steal or a defensive rebound being quickly pushed up the floor.

So we're 3rd in offense, but a lot of that has to do with exactly what Woody preaches constantly . . . DEFEND AND REBOUND THE BASKETBALL. We don't have the strongest or biggest frontcourt in the league . . but we definitely have the fastest. And both Horford and Josh are talented enough to grab a rebound and quickly push the ball up the floor . . even make a pass while leading the break.

As far as the halfcourt offense goes, people may not like this, but ISO JJ is far more successful than it is unsuccessful. JJ has a size advantage over just about every 2-guard in the league. If they don't double him, he goes into the paint and shoots right over top of them. If they do double, he passes to the open man, who may take a shot or pass to another open man.

Without the consistent low post option or the quick penetrating PG that can run pick and roll all day, ISO JJ really is our best option in the halfcourt in some instances of the game. Yeah, they could look a lot prettier in the halfcourt, but no basketball team is a perfect one.

The Hawks lose when they don't stop people. They don't win because the halfcourt offense is great.

I loved the graph ESPN showed last night concerning the Hawks in their first 12 games, dating back in a 5-year span. ( ironically, the same time span JJ has been here )

05 - 06: 2

06 - 07: 5

07 - 08: 5

08 - 09: 8

09 - 10: 10

It's been nothing but a steady progression over the years.

But the bar will always be raised for Woody. If we win 55 games and get to the ECF, but lose, people will call for his head.

I guarantee you that.

Sund . . . finish your homework by Christmas,

[Joker]

Woody has haters, not unusual giving that his offensive sets are not the best. I have always stated since 2007 that Woody is a very good coach. I felt he is better than Larry Brown. But no one will agree with me which I can understand. I feel that there are only 3 great coaches in the NBA. Nate Mac, Phil Jackson, and Rick Adelman. Woody is in the 2nd tier which is very good. Woody works hard and has became a very good coach. The players respect him and even Josh is on board. Every coach could be better but I think Woody is a championship caliber coach with the Hawks.

[coachx]

I do not have a huge issue with Woody. In fact I supported him in the "dark days." He is a coach in the mold of Bobby Knight who demands energy and effot at all times.

The issue is JJ. Why would JJ sign for 4 years now if he can get a 5 or 6 year deal as a UFA ?

There is no reason to be upset with JJ. If he took a 4 year deal he would be turning 32 when his contract is up and turning 33 headed into free agency. We all know it would be hard to get a good contract at 33 as a wing player.

So I have no issue with him going after a 5 or 6 year deal that will pay him top tier money until he is 33 or 34 (just like Ray Allen did). Heck, that is what we all would do and that is what any agent would advise him to do.

Leave Sund alone about JJ. He has done all he can do until FA.

Edited November 19, 2009 by coachx

[Chaze]

stackhouse would make this team even better, why not sign him. hes in atlanta and probably watching us all the time.

thats what i am saying someone needs to tell sund immedaitley to sign him i love this guy but do u think hes not signing him because of joe johnson or are they over that?

by the way hes is a great defender and not the worst scorer im not saying any names (marvin williams) or arethey not signing him because of mo evans i think we will if marvin or mo get injured

Edited November 19, 2009 by Chaze