Will Evans Keep Starting Over Marvin?

[niremetal]

Forget about Mo for a minute. I don't think Marvin's stats this year warrant a starting SF on a upper level NBA team. We should see where Marvin's stats fall compared to the other top team's SF's.

How many of those other SFs are the 5th offensive option? And since when did stats become the be-all? By that measure, Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen are the worst starting SFs in recent NBA history.

[Gray Mule]

:temperature:

Oh, yeah. Since the Hawks have this great, winning record, why don't we mess everything

up. Change the starting lineup - Mess up the chemestry. That's what we really need to do.

Let all the starters know, "If you have to miss a game due to sickness or injury, it could cost

you. Out one game and when you come back, you're no longer a starter."

:cant believe:

[MaceCase]

:temperature:

Oh, yeah. Since the Hawks have this great, winning record, why don't we mess everything

up. Change the starting lineup - Mess up the chemestry. That's what we really need to do.

Let all the starters know, "If you have to miss a game due to sickness or injury, it could cost

you. Out one game and when you come back, you're no longer a starter."

:cant believe:

It would explain why Bibby refuses to sit and rest his ankle

[capstone21]

Mo was our leading scorer coming out of the first quarter when the game was close... What are you talking about?

He had 12 points and 4 rebounds going into garbage time.

[Diesel]

He said he started the game off hot, but I guess you chose to just skip over the second half of the very sentence that you quoted. Way to look for any opening to pump Mo up, since that obviously helps out your fire-breathing on Marvin.

You ever heard of a backhanded compliment?

To say "his stats were bloated because of his play in garbage time but he started off hot" is both a backhanded compliment and a misrepresentation of what Mo brought. I suggest that had Mo played in the non-garbage time, he would have still put up the same numbers. Did NJ empty their bench with Mo on the floor??

So, no, I didn't ignore his flip flop, I just think it's rather misleading to say that Mo's efforts were bloated.

[Diesel]

How many of those other SFs are the 5th offensive option? And since when did stats become the be-all? By that measure, Shane Battier and Bruce Bowen are the worst starting SFs in recent NBA history.

5th option??

Was Mo the 5th option yesterday??? If he was, he did pretty darn good considering he was our lead scoring coming out of the first quarter.

The point is that Marvin makes his bed. Our commentation team talked about the fact that Mo is a hard cover because he's everywhere. The opposite is Marvin. Marvin is not everywhere. In fact, Marvin has a standing reservation of the seat in the corner of the perimeter. He rarely moves from that place. He waits on others to initiate offense for him. That's why he's the 5th option. He made that bed.... and everytime we see others play the position, it's mighty funny that they are never the 5th option.

He had 12 points and 4 rebounds going into garbage time.

He sat the bench from the first quarter til garbage time.

[Buzzard]

5th option??

Was Mo the 5th option yesterday??? If he was, he did pretty darn good considering he was our lead scoring coming out of the first quarter.

The point is that Marvin makes his bed. Our commentation team talked about the fact that Mo is a hard cover because he's everywhere. The opposite is Marvin. Marvin is not everywhere. In fact, Marvin has a standing reservation of the seat in the corner of the perimeter. He rarely moves from that place. He waits on others to initiate offense for him. That's why he's the 5th option. He made that bed.... and everytime we see others play the position, it's mighty funny that they are never the 5th option.

He sat the bench from the first quarter til garbage time.

Evans has been playing well for about the last two weeks; and all I can say is its great to get him back! Starting over Marvin...I knew as soon as his shot came back this would be a priority for you. Bet you have missed this topic since the Crawford instead of Marvin starting has lost its mojo... :snowballfight:

[RedDawg#8]

Mo played great, I have always thought he was being under-valued this season. that said, just like Mo had 1 GREAT game and finshed with 22 and 9, Marv had 1 great game before too and finished 29 and 9.

Marv is clearly not as consitent as the rest of our starters, which has led to his decrease in minutes, but the rare times when he is on, he can still drop 30 against a good team. Mo had a lights out night, was perfect from 3pt, and got you 20 against the worse team in the NBA. I dont think that we should look at this one game to indicate why Mo should start. When we play a Cle, Den, or somebody with a dominating 6-8+ SF, i dont want to see Mo out there getting pushed around.

I am also begginning to notice trends with Marv:

the more scorers we have on this team, the less aggressive he becomes. We all know that our offense dominated by ISO players (gaurds) and everyone else is just supposed to "play within the game" and get theirs. Well Marv knows he isnt as good an ISO player as Joe and Craw so he will defer, but its also harder for him to get his when Josh and Horf are under the hoop cleaning up after JJ and Craw. As for his athleticism, Josh has assumed autority as the "finisher" on fast breaks, so again, he defers despite having similar finishing ability.

He stands outside the arc so much because our starting SG plays more of a SF role by ISO-ing inside the arc the majoirty of the time, which leaves Marvin on the outside.

Despite being 5th on the team in scoring and Minutes, he is still 3rd in 3PT %, Rebs, and Blks and is 4th in FT attempts

Honestly, if Marv decided to move around inside more, that would clog the lane with Horf and Smoove already there, limiting Joes effectiveness. By spacing the court, that allows our playmaker to move in and out and find open shooters, or his own shot. On most teams with "superstar" swingmen who dominate the ball, the pg and sg or sf stand on the outside waiting for the 3-ball and let the ball-handler work. there is no reason for 4 guys to be in the post before a shot goes up.

Regardless, Marv has already been punished for his inconsistent/non-aggresive play by his reduced PT.

[RedDawg#8]

Starting SF's on teams with a star ball handling 2:

Lakers-Lamar Odom(30mpg)- 8.3ppg, 8.1reb

Heat-Quentin Richardson(28mpg)-8 ppg, 4 reb

Blazers-Martell Webster(23mpg)- 8.4ppg, 3.2 reb/ Travis Outlaw(21mpg)- 9.9 ppg, 3.4 reb

Sixers-Thad Young(37mpg)- 15.5ppg, 4.9reb

Kings-Fransico Garcia(26mpg)-11.4ppg, 4reb

Magic-Michael Peitrus(28mpg)-10.1ppg, 3.1reb

Starting SG's on teams with a star ball handling 3:

Cavs-Anthony Parker(29mpg)-7.6ppg, 2.8reb

Nuggets-Arron Afflalo(24mpg)- 8.2ppg, 2.7reb

Pacers-Brandon Rush(27mpg)- 7.3ppg, 4.4reb

Thunder-Thabo Sefolosha(32mpg)- 6ppg, 5.6reb

These stats reflect how innefective players can be when having to play off the ball on the perimeter with a swingman who dominates the ball outside and inside. Basically, Marvin is on par with the other starting SF's on those teams who run their offense through SG's like Joe

[jerrywest]

Starting SF's on teams with a star ball handling 2:

Lakers-Lamar Odom(30mpg)- 8.3ppg, 8.1reb

Heat-Quentin Richardson(28mpg)-8 ppg, 4 reb

Blazers-Martell Webster(23mpg)- 8.4ppg, 3.2 reb/ Travis Outlaw(21mpg)- 9.9 ppg, 3.4 reb

Sixers-Thad Young(37mpg)- 15.5ppg, 4.9reb

Kings-Fransico Garcia(26mpg)-11.4ppg, 4reb

Magic-Michael Peitrus(28mpg)-10.1ppg, 3.1reb

Starting SG's on teams with a star ball handling 3:

Cavs-Anthony Parker(29mpg)-7.6ppg, 2.8reb

Nuggets-Arron Afflalo(24mpg)- 8.2ppg, 2.7reb

Pacers-Brandon Rush(27mpg)- 7.3ppg, 4.4reb

Thunder-Thabo Sefolosha(32mpg)- 6ppg, 5.6reb

These stats reflect how innefective players can be when having to play off the ball on the perimeter with a swingman who dominates the ball outside and inside. Basically, Marvin is on par with the other starting SF's on those teams who run their offense through SG's like Joe

Slam dunk stats!!!

[Eddielives]

I think it says something about Marvin that there is even a debate that he should not be starting on this team and that Mo Evans may to a certain degree be a better option. Let's not forget Marvin was the #2 pick and has not lived up to his potential. He still has a very shaky one on one game and still has unstable footwork when driving to the basket. How many times does he just bull rush and wind up on his duck butt or running into other people leaving them with looks of confusion as to what the hell he's doing? I'm not saying Marvin should definitely be coming off the bench because he does seem to play decent defense and when his shot is on it's a beautiful thing. but to say Mo starting in place of him will ruin our chemistry or that Mo doesn't deserve to be starting is totally unfair. I don't think we gain or lose much either way and I think Marvin might build his confidence if coming off the bench since he would be a better option for scoring.

[Diesel]

Mo played great, I have always thought he was being under-valued this season. that said, just like Mo had 1 GREAT game and finshed with 22 and 9, Marv had 1 great game before too and finished 29 and 9.

Marv is clearly not as consitent as the rest of our starters, which has led to his decrease in minutes, but the rare times when he is on, he can still drop 30 against a good team. Mo had a lights out night, was perfect from 3pt, and got you 20 against the worse team in the NBA. I dont think that we should look at this one game to indicate why Mo should start. When we play a Cle, Den, or somebody with a dominating 6-8+ SF, i dont want to see Mo out there getting pushed around.

I am also begginning to notice trends with Marv:

the more scorers we have on this team, the less aggressive he becomes. We all know that our offense dominated by ISO players (gaurds) and everyone else is just supposed to "play within the game" and get theirs. Well Marv knows he isnt as good an ISO player as Joe and Craw so he will defer, but its also harder for him to get his when Josh and Horf are under the hoop cleaning up after JJ and Craw. As for his athleticism, Josh has assumed autority as the "finisher" on fast breaks, so again, he defers despite having similar finishing ability.

He stands outside the arc so much because our starting SG plays more of a SF role by ISO-ing inside the arc the majoirty of the time, which leaves Marvin on the outside.

Despite being 5th on the team in scoring and Minutes, he is still 3rd in 3PT %, Rebs, and Blks and is 4th in FT attempts

Honestly, if Marv decided to move around inside more, that would clog the lane with Horf and Smoove already there, limiting Joes effectiveness. By spacing the court, that allows our playmaker to move in and out and find open shooters, or his own shot. On most teams with "superstar" swingmen who dominate the ball, the pg and sg or sf stand on the outside waiting for the 3-ball and let the ball-handler work. there is no reason for 4 guys to be in the post before a shot goes up.

Regardless, Marv has already been punished for his inconsistent/non-aggresive play by his reduced PT.

Did Buzzard let you borrow his excuse machine or are you just renting that one. It's not a case of Iso players. We don't run nearly as much Iso as we did last year. Marvin just lacks aggressiveness. He may be better suited coming off the bench when no other strong players are on the court. It is becoming harder and harder to justify keeping Marv over trading him while he still has some value.

[Diesel]

I think it says something about Marvin that there is even a debate that he should not be starting on this team and that Mo Evans may to a certain degree be a better option. Let's not forget Marvin was the #2 pick and has not lived up to his potential. He still has a very shaky one on one game and still has unstable footwork when driving to the basket. How many times does he just bull rush and wind up on his duck butt or running into other people leaving them with looks of confusion as to what the hell he's doing? I'm not saying Marvin should definitely be coming off the bench because he does seem to play decent defense and when his shot is on it's a beautiful thing. but to say Mo starting in place of him will ruin our chemistry or that Mo doesn't deserve to be starting is totally unfair. I don't think we gain or lose much either way and I think Marvin might build his confidence if coming off the bench since he would be a better option for scoring.

I think this is what needs to be understood by all.

WE MADE A MISTAKE DRAFTING MARVIN.

Ok, now, that we have stated it and understand it, we can move past it.

I think what tends to happen is that people think that for some reason those who are for sending Marvin to then bench is arguing 2005 draft all over again. That's not the case. Marvin to the bench is 2009-2010 season basketball and the fact that he's very ineffective as a starter. For the last 4 years, I have watched this team make excuses for keeping a less capable player on the floor. Don't get me wrong, Marvin has a great form on his shot... However, if you're not using it to score points or to draw defensive attention, it's useless. That is why we have seen guys who were better at working like Flip Murray and Crawford come in and make the impact that Marvin doesn't make. C hillz left because he was more effective on the court than Marvin yet he was made to play behind Marvin because of Marvin's draft position.

So here's how we fix it.

We bench Marvin. Just to see how he plays coming off the bench. If he can be aggressive off the bench, then he becomes that Spark that everybody has been looking for in error.

If Not, then we start looking for a team that would give us value for him.

[RedDawg#8]

No excuses, just observation. I will be completely honest, the more and more I watch, I am beggining to think that his most effective position is at PF, and on this team that would mean backup PF. His shooting ability is average for a SF but would be a deadly weapon for a PF. His athleticsm and rebounding arent as effective far away from the basket, but would be better served in the post.

During training camp, in most of the pics he was always working with the wing players, working on shooting from the perimeter, etc. His position calls for this but his body type is that of a player that also needs to work in the post, which I rarely saw him do. I believe this is by design and not his own doing, but still for a guy who is the same height and weight as our starting PF to be looked at just a shooter really under-utilizes his stregnths. In complete bluntness we start 3 PF's together in Horf, Smoove and Marv, and the one furthest from the hoop is the one who happens to be the least effective, go figure.

[niremetal]

No excuses, just observation. I will be completely honest, the more and more I watch, I am beggining to think that his most effective position is at PF, and on this team that would mean backup PF.

Oh RedDawg. Have you learned nothing? To Diesel, anyone who suggests that Marvin is anything other than the worst player in the history of the NBA is "making excuses" for him.

Edited December 15, 2009 by niremetal

[RedDawg#8]

Thats real, but when I looked back my message did seem kind of apologetic so I tried to be as objective as possible

Edited December 15, 2009 by RedDawg#8

[jerrywest]

No excuses, just observation. I will be completely honest, the more and more I watch, I am beggining to think that his most effective position is at PF, and on this team that would mean backup PF. His shooting ability is average for a SF but would be a deadly weapon for a PF. His athleticsm and rebounding arent as effective far away from the basket, but would be better served in the post.

During training camp, in most of the pics he was always working with the wing players, working on shooting from the perimeter, etc. His position calls for this but his body type is that of a player that also needs to work in the post, which I rarely saw him do. I believe this is by design and not his own doing, but still for a guy who is the same height and weight as our starting PF to be looked at just a shooter really under-utilizes his stregnths. In complete bluntness we start 3 PF's together in Horf, Smoove and Marv, and the one furthest from the hoop is the one who happens to be the least effective, go figure.

Great post.

We have 3 power forwards and 3 shooting guards in our top 6 players. Evans and Childress are shooting guards as well. Teague wasn't expected to be much of a distributing point guard. More like a short shooting guard. No one would claim that anymore.

Diesel wants to trade Marvin for Shelden Williams.

[Diesel]

No excuses, just observation. I will be completely honest, the more and more I watch, I am beggining to think that his most effective position is at PF, and on this team that would mean backup PF. His shooting ability is average for a SF but would be a deadly weapon for a PF. His athleticsm and rebounding arent as effective far away from the basket, but would be better served in the post.

During training camp, in most of the pics he was always working with the wing players, working on shooting from the perimeter, etc. His position calls for this but his body type is that of a player that also needs to work in the post, which I rarely saw him do. I believe this is by design and not his own doing, but still for a guy who is the same height and weight as our starting PF to be looked at just a shooter really under-utilizes his stregnths. In complete bluntness we start 3 PF's together in Horf, Smoove and Marv, and the one furthest from the hoop is the one who happens to be the least effective, go figure.

Well, I don't have a problem if you believe that position is the problem with Marvin's ineffectiveness. However, I think that Marvin lacks the rebounding skill to be a good PF. I would be happy to be corrected. However, guys like Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, etc were able to make the switch from Sf to PF because they were very good rebounders. Marvin is not like them.

[Atlantaholic]

I'm sorry but Marvin at PF is just not a good idea at all. He has no post moves, does not rebound (his rebounding isn't even good for a SF much less a PF), and will get raped by the better PFs down low on defense. Marvin is clearly an, at best, average small forward, and he is most valuable to us when he can camp out in the corner and hit the open three... He is also one of our better perimeter defenders so to have him at PF really negates the few things that he can do well.

[Diesel]

Great post.

We have 3 power forwards and 3 shooting guards in our top 6 players. Evans and Childress are shooting guards as well. Teague wasn't expected to be much of a distributing point guard. More like a short shooting guard. No one would claim that anymore.

Diesel wants to trade Marvin for Shelden Williams.

Shelden Williams plus Boston's first would be great compensation for Marvin...

:laughing5: