Anyone Mad at Joe?

[frankthetank966]

The Hawks have had the luck of having Joe Johnson on their team for five years. Johnson came over in a trade from Phoenix and has been a key piece in transforming this team into an Eastern Conference contender. During his tenure the Hawks have been to the playoffs twice.

What have we learned as Hawks fans from his performance during the playoffs and other key matchups during the season? He is not an MVP candidate nor is he or will he ever be considered to be as good as Dwayne Wade, Kobe or LeBron. Joe Johnson is far to inconsistent in key games to be considered a real threat. I am not saying opposing teams should rule him out completely, but Johnson will never bring the same threat to the court as Wade or Carmelo. You can certainly argue JJ was not drafted with the same hype as Carmelo or Kobe...

Was anyone infuriated with Joe's performance tonight? I mean c'mon the guy went 5-14 and coudn't find his stroke again after a great 1st quarter until late in the 4th quarter.

With all the hate on JJ he is generally a consistent player. We know what to expect from him night to night. 20 points, 4-5 assists and 4-5 rebounds. However, do we resign this guy or use our money elsewhere.

[macdaddy]

There aren't enough superstars to go around in this league. I'd re-sign him because I can't think of anyone better we could get to replace him. Right now, if you take JJ away and just plug in Crawford we become a fairly average team over the course of a season. Joe seems to be forcing it right now.

[dms269]

You say to do what is best to win games, and I think that is bring him back. I hope him feeling that he needs to take over games every night is his way of being in his contract year. Maybe if he has a new contract he will be more willing to allow other people a chance to have good nights.

[coachx]

Lebron only had 14 points last night.

Point being even the greats have their off nights. The guy on this board who gets all the "hate" just so happened to be guarding James for most of last night. Still, many are blasting him even though he was the only Hawks with a (+) per last night.

Back to JJ..........not every team can have a top 5 scrorer on their team ( James, Kobe, Wade, Anthony, Durant). However, that does not mean JJ is the chopped liver that many here, over -react, and make him out to be after a tough loss.

[frankthetank966]

Lebron only had 14 points last night.

Point being even the greats have their off nights. The guy on this board who gets all the "hate" just so happened to be guarding James for most of last night. Still, many are blasting him even though he was the only Hawks with a (+) per last night.

Back to JJ..........not every team can have a top 5 scrorer on their team ( James, Kobe, Wade, Anthony, Durant). However, that does not mean JJ is the chopped liver that many here, over -react, and make him out to be after a tough loss.

True LeBron did also have an off night but its seems to me in the tougher games this year JJ tried to do it all by himself. He doesn't like to pass the ball around and get his teammates involved.

[spotatl]

You think that Joe had turnovers last night passing the ball to himself?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Mad? No.

Disappointed? Yes.

He came out on fire in that game, but couldn't buy a shot after the 2nd quarter. He missed a couple of wide open 3's in that 2nd half that could've really swung the momentum in that game. That was the type of game where he really needed to try to get to the FT line. But that's not his game. He's going to live and die by the jumper, or by the ability to create for others. Last night ( after the 1st quarter ) just wasn't his night at all. I was more upset with the 3 turnovers he had in the 4th quarter, than the missed shots. Those turnovers were absolutely horrible.

JJ's scoring in our "big games" ( Games vs the top 10 teams in the league )

@ LAL - 27

@ POR - 19

@ BOS - 24

vs DEN - 22

vs ORL - 22

@ DAL - 31

@ DEN - 16

vs CLE - 15

average ppg: 22

We're 4 - 4 in those games.

If he comes out and has a real good night tonight, people will be right back on the JJ bandwagon. Sp I defiitely agree with coachx's post.

Edited December 30, 2009 by northcyde

[niremetal]

Lebron only had 14 points last night.

Point being even the greats have their off nights. The guy on this board who gets all the "hate" just so happened to be guarding James for most of last night. Still, many are blasting him even though he was the only Hawks with a (+) per last night.

Back to JJ..........not every team can have a top 5 scrorer on their team ( James, Kobe, Wade, Anthony, Durant). However, that does not mean JJ is the chopped liver that many here, over -react, and make him out to be after a tough loss.

Exactly. No one is saying JJ is LeBron. But that's exactly doesn't make any sense to have an offensive "system" that treats him as if he is LeBron.

But hey, this is the coach that doesn't worry about offense :help wanted3:

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Exactly. No one is saying JJ is LeBron. But that's exactly doesn't make any sense to have an offensive "system" that treats him as if he is LeBron.

But hey, this is the coach that doesn't worry about offense :help wanted3:

It does when you don't have people who can consistently create their own shots. Horford's low post game is getting better, but it's not reliable offense yet. Smoove likes to face people up and drive to the basket, but he tends to go in a little too weak to get the calls. So it's pretty much up to JJ and Crawford to create shots on this team.

People want less ISO and more motion. But when people can't hit wide open shots in the motion offense, then ISO is the alternative. And if your two best offensive players happen to be pretty good ISO players, then that would seem to be the way to go, when you need a score. WIth ISO Jamal, he's almost always going to shoot the ball. With ISO JJ, he reads the defense, and will readily pass out of the double team to open shooters. If he's not doubled, he's shooting the ball.

For the record, JJ has 51 three-point assists on the year ( as of 12/26 )

[dms269]

With ISO JJ, he reads the defense, and will readily pass out of the double team to open shooters.

Unless he is being guarded by Lebron and drives against Lebron to the side that Shaq is covering. Then he tries to shoot the ball and gets blocked.

If you can't hit open shots in the motion and can't hit open shots in the iso, then what do you do? I would rather go back to the motion just so we don't have 3 or 4 players a play looking lost out on the court just standing there.

[HawksBalla]

Bring him back for less than max.

He isn't worth the max. I don't see him getting much better than he is..the question will be how long can he sustain his current production?

[High5]

WIth ISO Jamal, he's almost always going to shoot the ball. With ISO JJ, he reads the defense, and will readily pass out of the double team to open shooters. If he's not doubled, he's shooting the ball.

With iso Jamal, the ball moves quickly. He's either going to get to the rim or get a good look. Sure he shoots most of the time, but most of the time it's a good shot. With iso Joe, the ball stays in one spot for most of the shot clock. He'll dribble, dribble, dribble and then take a difficult jumper or look for a teammate late to bail him out. I'm not the biggest Nique fan, but he is right when he says Joe waits too long to pass out of the double.

Joe is more talented than Crawford, but I wish he'd take some notes.

[niremetal]

With iso Jamal, the ball moves quickly. He's either going to get to the rim or get a good look. Sure he shoots most of the time, but most of the time it's a good shot. With iso Joe, the ball stays in one spot for most of the shot clock. He'll dribble, dribble, dribble and then take a difficult jumper or look for a teammate late to bail him out. I'm not the biggest Nique fan, but he is right when he says Joe waits too long to pass out of the double.

Joe is more talented than Crawford, but I wish he'd take some notes.

Uh...you do realize that Crawford has one of the worst career shooting percentages in the NBA, right?

To me, taking 2 dribbles and then firing a 20-foot jumper with a hand in your face is not a "good shot." Dribbling around a whole lot might be boring to watch and it creates a higher risk of turnovers (and even then, the risk is actually not THAT high - JJ's career turnover rate (both per possession and per 36 minutes) is quite low...and lower than Jamal's), but it actually is more likely to result in a good look when you're going one-on-one. That's why so many guys in the NBA take that approach.

I'm not saying JJ's approach is better. One approach is not necessarily "better" than the other. They each have their pluses and minuses. What's stupid is that the Hawks play in a "system" where 1-on-1 is the rule rather than the exception.

Edited December 30, 2009 by niremetal

[High5]

Uh...you do realize that Crawford has one of the worst career shooting percentages in the NBA, right?

To me, taking 2 dribbles and then firing a 20-foot jumper with a hand in your face is not a "good shot." Dribbling around a whole lot might be boring to watch and it creates a higher risk of turnovers (and even then, the risk is actually not THAT high - JJ's career turnover rate (both per possession and per 36 minutes) is quite low...and lower than Jamal's), but it actually is more likely to result in a good look when you're going one-on-one. That's why so many guys in the NBA take that approach.

I'm not saying JJ's approach is better. One approach is not necessarily "better" than the other. They each have their pluses and minuses. What's stupid is that the Hawks play in a "system" where 1-on-1 is the rule rather than the exception.

I'm talking about this year, where he's shooting 47%. Crawford isn't taking a bunch of 20 footers with a hand in his face. He is taking high percentage shots. You haven't watched many games this year if you think Joe is taking better shots. Obviously teams don't give Crawford quite as much attention as they give Joe, but Joe makes it easy for the defense when he holds onto the ball in one spot. If he attacked more the Hawks would be a better team (different year, same story). That's the main difference between Joe and guys like LeBron, Wade, Melo, and Kobe.

[HawksFan87]

I'd bring him back UNLESS we could get a much better player.. But he certainly is not worth a max contract.. "Elite" players don't disappear against the elite teams in the league all the time

Edited December 30, 2009 by jsmoovefan

[niremetal]

I'm talking about this year, where he's shooting 47%. Crawford isn't taking a bunch of 20 footers with a hand in his face. He is taking high percentage shots. You haven't watched many games this year if you think Joe is taking better shots. Obviously teams don't give Crawford quite as much attention as they give Joe, but Joe makes it easy for the defense when he holds onto the ball in one spot. If he attacked more the Hawks would be a better team (different year, same story). That's the main difference between Joe and guys like LeBron, Wade, Melo, and Kobe.

Whatever you say buddy. You know someone isn't worth talking to when they have sentences that consist of "You haven't watched many games this year if you think [sOMETHING I DISAGREE WITH]." Because that's almost always a sign that you're talking to someone who only sees what they want to see.

Edited December 30, 2009 by niremetal

[exodus]

I'd bring him back UNLESS we could get a much better player.. But he certainly is not worth a max contract.. "Elite" players don't disappear against the elite teams in the league all the time

JJ sure didnt disappear tonight but Smith and Horford certainly did. Smith is such an idiot for taking a jumper in crunch time. In the last two games Horford had 7 field goals and 6 turnovers.

[Supporter]

If there's anyone in the NBA that I actually care for watching, it's Joe Johnson. Dude doesn't care about the refs, he just plays his game, unlike the lebrons of the world who cry and whine when they don't get a call.

[High5]

Whatever you say buddy. You know someone isn't worth talking to when they have sentences that consist of "You haven't watched many games this year if you think [sOMETHING I DISAGREE WITH]." Because that's almost always a sign that you're talking to someone who only sees what they want to see.

And it's not worth talking to someone who doesn't understand the subject matter. So it works out for both us.

Anyway, Joe must read this forum because tonight was as active as I think I have ever seen him on offense. He was all over the floor and got a ton of great looks. That's why it took everything the refs had to get Cleveland a victory. Great game by Joe even in a tough loss.

[frankthetank966]

JJ sure didnt disappear tonight but Smith and Horford certainly did. Smith is such an idiot for taking a jumper in crunch time. In the last two games Horford had 7 field goals and 6 turnovers.

It was a good shot with only a few seconds left on the clock.