We are not trading JJ

[hawkman]

When one was the last time the Heat competed for a championship ?

When Shaq was was still the best center in basketball........that is when.

Wade could not even get past JJ and the Hawks in the playoffs last year.

QFT. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[spotatl]

Wade has been an MVP caliber player- you people are being ridiculous. If you want to say that you think Wade is going to decline rapidly due to injuries then thats perfectly valid but JJ simply isn't in the same class of player.

[niremetal]

QFT. The grass is always greener on the other side.

The only player in my lifetime who has carried a team to a title without any All-Star caliber players alongside him was Duncan in 2003. Wade sure as hell isn't THAT good. He needs the right players around him to contend for a title. But I think you can also win a title with JJ as your best player if you surround him with the right people, same as with every other non-point guard who is a top 10-12 player. True, you might need slightly higher-caliber runningmates to do it, but the difference isn't as drastic as many people seem to think (especially when you consider that from the standpoint of defensive matchups, it's much better to have a 6'7 swingman at SG than a 6'3 combo guard).

JJ reminds me a bit of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett c.2007 - both were perennial All-Stars, but neither was good enough to lead a team to a title on their own (you can add "anymore" to the end of that sentence in the case of Garnett). The Wolves took the approach of "well, we might as well trade KG for a younger semi-star because he isn't a top 5 player anymore." That hasn't so much worked out for them. But the Celtics didn't give up on Pierce simply because he wasn't LeBron - even though there were plenty of Celtics fans who were screaming to trade Pierce and rebuild around Jefferson. Instead, they made moves to surround Pierce with two other players of comparable caliber.

So it is with JJ. We shouldn't say "to hell with it" just because he isn't Kobe. And fortunately for us Hawks fans, Sund won't - no matter how much his haters say he should.

Edited January 13, 2010 by niremetal

[Deeman]

When one was the last time the Heat competed for a championship ?

When Shaq was was still the best center in basketball........that is when.

Wade could not even get past JJ and the Hawks in the playoffs last year.

Switch D Wade on the Hawks and JJ on the Heat that series is a sweep for Atlanta.

[mrhonline]

Wade has been an MVP caliber player- you people are being ridiculous. If you want to say that you think Wade is going to decline rapidly due to injuries then thats perfectly valid but JJ simply isn't in the same class of player.

No player in the league can carry a team to the championship on his own. Wade's teammates the last few seasons have been incredibly mediocre. When "no D" Beasley is your second best player, you're in trouble.

I dread to see Wade jump ship or add someone like Boozer. They'll be better than Atlanta next year if they play their cards right.

[HawksFan87]

comparing Joe to Wade is a joke, WADE is a MUCH better player. If I had to pick one to build a team around it's Wade and not even close..

[RedDawg#8]

JJ reminds me a bit of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett c.2007 - both were perennial All-Stars, but neither was good enough to lead a team to a title on their own (you can add "anymore" to the end of that sentence in the case of Garnett). The Wolves took the approach of "well, we might as well trade KG for a younger semi-star because he isn't a top 5 player anymore." That hasn't so much worked out for them. But the Celtics didn't give up on Pierce simply because he wasn't LeBron - even though there were plenty of Celtics fans who were screaming to trade Pierce and rebuild around Jefferson. Instead, they made moves to surround Pierce with two other players of comparable caliber.

So it is with JJ. We shouldn't say "to hell with it" just because he isn't Kobe. And fortunately for us Hawks fans, Sund won't - no matter how much his haters say he should.

This is a great point, and actually just made me change my outlook on the situation. Yes JJ is not Kobe, or as impactful as Lebron and Wade, but it would be easier to win a championship by keeping and surrounding him with players at or close to his level, than jump ship and try to find somenody else to build around. Unless we get incredibly lucky, we will prolly never end up with one of those once in a generation all-world franchise type players. I think what our front office is banking on is that Josh or Al become star level type players alongside JJ tho. Even Crawford kind of counts as a star type , imagine if we had one more player some where around Craw and JJ's skill/imapct, we would definately be an elite contender.

[Buzzard]

The only player in my lifetime who has carried a team to a title without any All-Star caliber players alongside him was Duncan in 2003. Wade sure as hell isn't THAT good. He needs the right players around him to contend for a title. But I think you can also win a title with JJ as your best player if you surround him with the right people, same as with every other non-point guard who is a top 10-12 player. True, you might need slightly higher-caliber runningmates to do it, but the difference isn't as drastic as many people seem to think (especially when you consider that from the standpoint of defensive matchups, it's much better to have a 6'7 swingman at SG than a 6'3 combo guard).

JJ reminds me a bit of Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett c.2007 - both were perennial All-Stars, but neither was good enough to lead a team to a title on their own (you can add "anymore" to the end of that sentence in the case of Garnett). The Wolves took the approach of "well, we might as well trade KG for a younger semi-star because he isn't a top 5 player anymore." That hasn't so much worked out for them. But the Celtics didn't give up on Pierce simply because he wasn't LeBron - even though there were plenty of Celtics fans who were screaming to trade Pierce and rebuild around Jefferson. Instead, they made moves to surround Pierce with two other players of comparable caliber.

So it is with JJ. We shouldn't say "to hell with it" just because he isn't Kobe. And fortunately for us Hawks fans, Sund won't - no matter how much his haters say he should.

Wade is the better player. This should not be an argument. JJ can disappear a lot more than Wade over the course of a season. When I say a lot more I mean twice as much. With Wade he will do something to help your team on a bad shooting night. Things like lead the team in assist AND get to the line 15 times. JJ does not get to the line like Wade; so he does disappear when it comes to scoring more than Wade. Its that simple.

But this thread is not about who is better. Its about who we will keep. The only way to clear close to twenty million for one of the top tier free agents is to blow this team up and move JJ and Smoove for an expiring contract like T-Mac. Wade will not take us to the championship without Smoove and JJ in our lineup. And there is no guarantee Wade signs with us. Especially after trading away two of our best three players. Sund will only move JJ out of desperation. If he thinks JJ wants to stay here, and nothing he has said indicates anger toward our management or city, ( like when he was in Phoenix ) Sund is keeping JJ. Period End of Story.

I know I posted a JJ/Smoove for T-Mac fantasy trade; but thats all it was ..... a fantasy idea. We are one player away from a championship with our current lineup; could move as high as #2 in the east just by staying pat next season. Trade JJ and Smoove, miss out on a top tier free agent, we are back to a 30 win season or worse. Why would anyone risk that?

Edited January 13, 2010 by Buzzard

[Admin]

Wade has been an MVP caliber player- you people are being ridiculous. If you want to say that you think Wade is going to decline rapidly due to injuries then thats perfectly valid but JJ simply isn't in the same class of player.

Absolutely agreed! There is a reason why he has had vastly superior EFF and PER ratings throughout his career compared to JJ. JJ would kill Wade in a shooting contest and JJ is more valuable as a defender since he can guard 1-3 well, but Wade is a better defender against guards, a better one on one player, and he gets to the line a ton.

[niremetal]

Wade is the better player. This should not be an argument. JJ can disappear a lot more than Wade over the course of a season. When I say a lot more I mean twice as much. With Wade he will do something to help your team on a bad shooting night. Things like lead the team in assist AND get to the line 15 times. JJ does not get to the line like Wade; so he does disappear when it comes to scoring more than Wade. Its that simple.

But this thread is not about who is better. Its about who we will keep. The only way to clear close to twenty million for one of the top tier free agents is to blow this team up and move JJ and Smoove for an expiring contract like T-Mac. Wade will not take us to the championship without Smoove and JJ in our lineup. And there is no guarantee Wade signs with us. Especially after trading away two of our best three players. Sund will only move JJ out of desperation. If he thinks JJ wants to stay here, and nothing he has said indicates anger toward our management or city, ( like when he was in Phoenix ) Sund is keeping JJ. Period End of Story.

I know I posted a JJ/Smoove for T-Mac fantasy trade; but thats all it was ..... a fantasy idea. We are one player away from a championship with our current lineup; could move as high as #2 in the east just by staying pat next season. Trade JJ and Smoove, miss out on a top tier free agent, we are back to a 30 win season or worse. Why would anyone risk that?

I must rush to point out that I never said JJ was as good as Wade. He isn't. But if we traded everyone who wasn't at least as good as Wade, we would have been been fielding a 0-player team ever since Nique tore his achilles tendon. That's why it's a mistake to say "JJ is not as good as Wade. Therefore we should trade him."

Edited January 13, 2010 by niremetal

[Buzzard]

I must rush to point out that I never said JJ was as good as Wade. He isn't. But if we traded everyone who wasn't at least as good as Wade, we would have been been fielding a 0-player team ever since Nique tore his achilles tendon. That's why it's a mistake to say "JJ is not as good as Wade. Therefore we should trade him."

I know; its just this thread is getting highjacked by the Wade is better theme; and some who want Iggy instead. T-Mac clears 22 million in cap space, JJ 14 million. If Philly is balking at 22 million cleared for Iggy, why would they even consider 14 million? That one is a I want it to happen so make it happen fantasy trade also; just like saying we will automatically get Wade if we just have the cap space.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Buzzard

[Sothron]

I must rush to point out that I never said JJ was as good as Wade. He isn't. But if we traded everyone who wasn't at least as good as Wade, we would have been been fielding a 0-player team ever since Nique tore his achilles tendon. That's why it's a mistake to say "JJ is not as good as Wade. Therefore we should trade him."

I don't think its a question of Wade/JJ. I think it is a question, a very fair one I might add, that if Sund isn't 100% sure JJ is going to resign with us then he needs to be traded. I completely agree with that train of thought. The worst thing we could do is let the guy walk for nothing and before people start talking about S&T options I think if that happened we'd be more likely get a meaningless trade exception back.

[Buzzard]

I don't think its a question of Wade/JJ. I think it is a question, a very fair one I might add, that if Sund isn't 100% sure JJ is going to resign with us then he needs to be traded. I completely agree with that train of thought. The worst thing we could do is let the guy walk for nothing and before people start talking about S&T options I think if that happened we'd be more likely get a meaningless trade exception back.

And that is what this post is about....will JJ walk even though we offer him a better deal? Or is management so cheap they will let him walk if JJs offer is to big?

1: Nothing JJ or Sund have said publicly indicates bad feelings or a falling out of some sort. As was the case in Phoenix.

2: Say what you will about our owners, no starter has just walked; and they added fairly large contracts when we aquired JJ, Bibby, and then Crawford.

What makes you think JJ will walk or will not, or management matching or not matching. If JJ is content here and we will match all offers, realisticly why would Sund trade the best player on our team? This is what the post is about.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Buzzard

[Sothron]

And that is what this post is about....will JJ walk out of spite? Or is management so cheap they will let him walk if JJs offer is to big?

1: Nothing JJ or Sund have said publicly indicates bad feelings or a falling out of some sort. As was the case in Phoenix.

2: Say what you will about our owners, no starter has just walked; and they added fairly large contracts when we aquired JJ, Bibby, and then Crawford.

What makes you think JJ will walk or will not, or management matching or not matching is what this is about.

Honestly? I think JJ has hinted through the media that he's not completely sold on Atlanta. I sincerely question our ownership's financial capacity to offer JJ a max deal or something just below that to keep him. I DO think on the other hand other teams would be willing to do that. I think in JJ's mind he has proven he's a second tier All Star talent and he'd be the perfect second banana for a team that had a guy like Lebron or even Bosh/Wade. Teams that lose out on that top class are going to go directly after JJ because they know the ownership we have doesn't really spend that much.

I could be wrong, obviously, and JJ has no plans to leave and Sund and he have a comfortable feeling about a a new deal. I'm just speculating here. But if I'm Sund and I have doubts then you'd have to trade JJ if you can find a comparable talent elsewhere.

[Admin]

Honestly? I think JJ has hinted through the media that he's not completely sold on Atlanta. I sincerely question our ownership's financial capacity to offer JJ a max deal or something just below that to keep him. I DO think on the other hand other teams would be willing to do that. I think in JJ's mind he has proven he's a second tier All Star talent and he'd be the perfect second banana for a team that had a guy like Lebron or even Bosh/Wade. Teams that lose out on that top class are going to go directly after JJ because they know the ownership we have doesn't really spend that much.

I could be wrong, obviously, and JJ has no plans to leave and Sund and he have a comfortable feeling about a a new deal. I'm just speculating here. But if I'm Sund and I have doubts then you'd have to trade JJ if you can find a comparable talent elsewhere.

I highly doubt that the owners wouldn't pay JJ the max if that's what his value is. I mean it's not like they aren't paying him nearly 15 million per season as it is and have been doing so for many years now. I don't know what the max would be for him next year but it can't be so much that they'd balk at paying him and risk the progress that we've made as a team.

[spotatl]

I think its more interesting to think about the people here who say that JJ is not worth the max. I think its inevitable that someone offers him the max- there are too many teams with caproom chasing players that they are not going to get. After Lebron, Bosh, and Wade are off the market then Amare and Joe are in prime position to cash in. The ASG has shown that they are willing to give out big money. But they have also shown ZERO willingness to pay the luxury tax. If you max out JJ then you really can't sign Horford without paying the tax. And Personally unless this is a top 3 team in the league I don't htink there is any chance they pay the tax.

[Admin]

I think its more interesting to think about the people here who say that JJ is not worth the max. I think its inevitable that someone offers him the max- there are too many teams with caproom chasing players that they are not going to get. After Lebron, Bosh, and Wade are off the market then Amare and Joe are in prime position to cash in. The ASG has shown that they are willing to give out big money. But they have also shown ZERO willingness to pay the luxury tax. If you max out JJ then you really can't sign Horford without paying the tax. And Personally unless this is a top 3 team in the league I don't htink there is any chance they pay the tax.

The owners have said that they'd be willing to go into the luxury tax if their GM asked them to and they've been true to their word on everything else so I have no reason to doubt them. I'm sure Sund feels the same way that BK did and that is he won't ask the owners to pay it unless we're competing for a championship and I'd say that next year a championship should absolutely be the expectation if we keep this squad together and tweak it a little.

What would be JJ's salary next year on a 6 year max deal?

[Buzzard]

Honestly? I think JJ has hinted through the media that he's not completely sold on Atlanta. I sincerely question our ownership's financial capacity to offer JJ a max deal or something just below that to keep him. I DO think on the other hand other teams would be willing to do that. I think in JJ's mind he has proven he's a second tier All Star talent and he'd be the perfect second banana for a team that had a guy like Lebron or even Bosh/Wade. Teams that lose out on that top class are going to go directly after JJ because they know the ownership we have doesn't really spend that much.

I could be wrong, obviously, and JJ has no plans to leave and Sund and he have a comfortable feeling about a a new deal. I'm just speculating here. But if I'm Sund and I have doubts then you'd have to trade JJ if you can find a comparable talent elsewhere.

The last report we got was JJ approached Sund about an extension and he told JJ it was better to wait. I do not think Sund does this if he is worried about not having the money to match all offers or some sort of discontent JJ has with our teams direction. Any competitive player would be emotional after a 20 to 30 pt loss or a defeat to what they think is a lesser team. But even with that, JJ has still maintained a cool head most of the season. I thought it was evident after the Boston win. He was not over hyped in the interview but I thought he displayed a lot of pride and contentment from a job well done.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong as well. But nothing thats been said or done this season indicates discord or a cheapness from any of the parties involved IMO.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Buzzard

[spotatl]

a MAX contract for JJ from the Hawks would be around a 6 year 120 million dollar contract.

The most another team could offer would be a 5 year 93 million dollar deal.

Edited January 13, 2010 by spotatl

[Sothron]

The last report we got was JJ approached Sund about an extension and he told JJ it was better to wait. I do not think Sund does this if he is worried about not having the money to match all offers or some sort of discontent JJ has with our teams direction. Any competitive player would be emotional after a 20 to 30 pt loss or a defeat to what they think is a lesser team. But even with that, JJ has still maintained a cool head most of the season. I thought it was evident after the Boston win. He was not over hyped in the interview but I thought he displayed a lot of pride and contentment from a job well done.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong as well. But nothing thats been said or done this season indicates discord or a cheapness from any of the parties involved IMO.

Do you really think this ownership wouldn't blink twice about paying JJ a max deal, Josh's deal, Marvin's deal and soon to be Horford's deal? There is no way we can avoid paying the luxury tax to keep this team together.