Joe's selfish play in a great second half is a problem.

[smithrules]

Maybe Joe was trying to score more tonight to donate more money to Haiti

he was one of the players who was donating $1000 per point he scored tonight.....

just a thought

If he wanted to give more money to haiti, then donate the money. He is allowed to donate his own money. I don't buy that argument. It is like hollywood running a telethon. All those multimillionaires sitting there answering telephones when they could donate a hell of a lot more money that you or I. Or a person who rides a jet all over the world telling you that your car shouldn't use so much fuel.

Edited January 24, 2010 by smithrules

[tbhawksfan]

It' not about iso Joe at the end of the fourth. it's about iso Joe. He ans Woody are running a junior league offense and it's hampering the growth of a really good core. JJ is a very good player, but I agree with nearly everyone in saying that his game is best suited as a #2. As a #1 he doesn't have the mentality or game necessary to complement his teammates. What really worries me is carrying him into the next five years with a huge contract and a declining game. The Hawks should be about the next four or five years. JJ's best contribution at this point is as a trade chip to bring in talent and balance the roster and ease payroll.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

It' not about iso Joe at the end of the fourth. it's about iso Joe. He ans Woody are running a junior league offense and it's hampering the growth of a really good core. JJ is a very good player, but I agree with nearly everyone in saying that his game is best suited as a #2. As a #1 he doesn't have the mentality or game necessary to complement his teammates. What really worries me is carrying him into the next five years with a huge contract and a declining game. The Hawks should be about the next four or five years. JJ's best contribution at this point is as a trade chip to bring in talent and balance the roster and ease payroll.

So who do you trade him for? It's

See . . .I don't know about most people, but I'm old enough how everything went down during the Dominique trade back in 1994. The same rumblings you're hearing about JJ right now, were said about Nique. If the internet existed back then, the way it does today, people would be blasting Nique about his "selfish" play and his 43% FG shooting. I guess those same people would want him traded, in fear that his contract would hamper the future of the current Hawks.

So Babcock traded him for a young All-Star caliber forward in Danny Manning. A supposed more versatile, better "team player" than Nique. We all know how that turned out. We lose our best ISO player, and replace him with a "team player". And it cost us big time once the playoffs came around. And Manning didn't play bad in the playoffs either. He just couldn't flip that switch, and go into potential superstar mode when it counted the most.

As much as people hate ISO Joe, it's going to make all the difference in the world when we get into those playoff grinds. When Boston and Cleveland rachet up their defense, and the officials keep their whistles in their pockets, it's going to be ISO Joe and ISO Crawford that win games for us. Even if they pass the ball while playing ISO, that's going to be the difference.

The playoffs are a much different animal than the regular season.

So who do you trade him for?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If he wanted to give more money to haiti, then donate the money. He is allowed to donate his own money. I don't buy that argument. It is like hollywood running a telethon. All those multimillionaires sitting there answering telephones when they could donate a hell of a lot more money that you or I. Or a person who rides a jet all over the world telling you that your car shouldn't use so much fuel.

But if he signed up for an agreement that saw his donation for that particular night, determined by his point total, wouldn't that give some validity to the Haiti argument? It's not like he was trying to score all he could all game. On those fast breaks that JJ had, he could've kept the ball and scored himself. But he gave the ball up to a streaking Smoove or Horford, and let them finish the play. He only took 12 shots going into the 4th quarter. Even for JJ, that's a low number.

When we were up 17 with 5 min to go ( and still had only taken 12 shots ), he may have simply said to himself, "let me score a little bit more, so that I can give more to the Haitian relief effort". But the fan base wants to believe something more "conspiracy theorish" when it comes to JJ for some reason.

Him turning down that extension has really rubbed some of the fans the wrong way I see. Almost like some of them are trying to run him out of town.

[Admin]

North I think that the reason we're seeing so many trade JJ posts is because we're all afraid of him leaving at the end of the year and us getting nothing in return. If JJ was locked up for 2-3 more years his play wouldn't be nearly as controversial.

When I look at the players being lazy in transition defense or looking frustrated on offense I can't help but think that they feel some sort of animosity towards JJ and Crawford for taking so many shots without the other guys even touching the ball.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

North I think that the reason we're seeing so many trade JJ posts is because we're all afraid of him leaving at the end of the year and us getting nothing in return. If JJ was locked up for 2-3 more years his play wouldn't be nearly as controversial.

When I look at the players being lazy in transition defense or looking frustrated on offense I can't help but think that they feel some sort of animosity towards JJ and Crawford for taking so many shots without the other guys even touching the ball.

That was the situation with Nique back in 1994. Nique averaged 20 shots a game when he was with the Hawks that season ( 23 shots a game when he went to the Clippers ). The same fear of losing Nique for nothing, was the prevailing thought going around during that time with Babcock. Pete didn't want to pay Nique what he was reportedly asking for, and didn't want to lose Nique for nothing. And reportedly, Lenny didn't like the fact that Nique looked to shoot a lot, while slacking on defense. While I do blame Pete, Lenny probably had a lot to do with Nique being traded as well.

Basketball-reference.com has an interesting stat called Usage %, that they use to measure the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor. In 1994, Nique had a Usage % of 32%. When Nique went out to LA, his usage virtually remained unchanged at 31.9% ( Nique had a career Usage % of 30.3% )

Manning had a Usage % with the Clippers of 28.2%, seeing that he was the primary scoring option for the Clips. But when he came to Atlanta, his usage % dropped dramatically to 23.0%. What was happening, was that Manning wasn't trying to be the same player he was in LA. He was being the great "team guy", instead of the LEAD GUY. He was deferring to Kevin Willis on offense. Willis was good, but nowhere near ready to be the lead guy for the Hawks, especially in the playoffs. Manning's ppg dropped dramatically, from almost 24 ppg with the Clips to almost 16 ppg with us. But he was the "team guy" that the Hawks didn't have with Nique here. Everybody else got more looks with Nique gone, but it didn't make us a better team. And that ish was evident when the playoffs came.

With us being the #1 team in the conference at the time . . . and with Atlanta never winning a championship . . . and most important . . . WITH JORDAN OUT OF THE LEAGUE . . Pete should've rolled the dice with Nique, to see if that squad was good enough to bring us a championship. When he traded a bonafide #1 scorer, for a good team player who didn't really want to be the #1 scorer, he effectively killed any chance of us winning a title.

These are the Usage %s for the Hawks for the 08 - 09 season and the 09 - 10 season: ( top 10 players )

Joe Johnson: 26.6 . . . . . . . 26.6

Josh Smith: 22.6 . . . . . . . . 21.7

Mike Bibby: 20.6 . . . . . . . . . 16.0

Marvin Williams: 18.2 . . . . . 16.2

Al Horford: 16.4 . . . . . . . . . . 16.7

Flip/Crawford: 24.3 . . . . . . . 24.9

Zaza Pachulia: 16.3 . . . . . . 17.3

Mo Evans: 14.2 . . . . . . . . . . 14.7

Solo/Joe Smith: 11.8 . . . . . 17.6

Acie/Teague: 16.3 . . . . . . . . 20.1

JJ's usage remains unchanged from last year. Perception is sometimes not reality.

But the addition of Crawford has definitely affected the usage of Marvin and Bibby, and somewhat affected Josh Smith. With Crawford being the 2nd ( or 1a ) scoring option at times, it takes shots away from Smoove, which indirectly affects Smoove's usage a little. Crawford has a similar usage % as Flip, but he's playing 6 minutes more a game than Flip did. And the guys he takes minutes from, are Bibby and Marvin. So he directly affects their usage %.

The bench usage % are a little misleading, due to the fact that they get to play in a lot more blowouts this year, than in year's past. Interesting to see that Teague's usage % is significantly higher than Acie's.

But if it's anybody who should probably be used more, it's Horford. But I don't see Horford sulking or not getting back on defense because of a JJ or Crawford shot attempt. Still, as Horford improves as a low post ( in the paint ) scorer, his usage should go up. But if anybody should be mad at not being used as much, it's Bibby and Marvin.

When Crawford was brought in here, we all knew that this could happen. So for the guys not being used as much, it's up to them to know their roles and do the other things to help us win games. And from what I see, they're doing just that.

Just for comparison sake, here is JJ's usage% in 2010, compared to the other lead players around the league.

Wade: 35.2%

Melo: 34.0%

Lebron: 33.9%

Kobe: 33.6%

Durant: 32.0%

Arenas: 31.7%

Ellis: 29.8%

Dirk: 29.2%

Granger: 28.9%

Bosh: 28.4%

Harrington: 27.7%

Roy: 27.6%

Kaman: 27.4%

Jennings: 27.4%

S. Jackson: 27.4%

Stuckey: 27.2%

Carter: 27.1%

Duncan: 27.1%

Rose: 27.0%

Johnson: 26.6%

Evans: 26.1%

Boozer: 25.2%

Brooks: 25.1%

Randolph: 24.5%

Jefferson: 24.8%

Harris: 24.8%

Stoudamire: 24.7%

Paul: 23.1%

Pierce: 22.8%

Iguodala: 21.9%

The bottom line is that every team needs a LEAD GUY. JJ's usage, compared to some of those other guys, is comparatively less than most lead guys in this league. But he's the one that some call "selfish"? With the ball being in his hands as much as it is, he defers a lot more than most guys do, who are put in that same situation.

Edited January 25, 2010 by northcyde

[tbhawksfan]

JJ is still our best player, but he and Woody are holding other players back. JJ's next contract will be a disaster. I think that the other core pieces of the team could be much more productive with better coaching (not hard) and a non iso joe offense. JJ's a good player, but Woody and being the only good player on the team for a couple of years has totally screwed up his head.

He's the only Hawks that doesn't give me the impression of really being one of the guys.

He has trade value and we can improve positions that I think are more important, like PG and C wnd still feild Crawf and maybe a guy like Fernandez and improve the PG/C positions with a JJ move.

This team has more potential. Replace Woodson and trade JJ.

I've got t thread on the REALGM trade board and there are many interesting proposals.

Kaman and Baron for JJ and Bibby for example. If we did that, Zaza becomes expendable. zaza and a first shold get us a nice young SG to play with Crawf (like Fernandez).

Horf / Kaman / Collins

Smoove / Jo Smith

MW / Mo

Crawf / Fernandez

Baron / Teague

Another interesting proposal:

Calderon / Derozan / Amir Johnson for JJ

Trade Zaza / Teague and filler for a solid starting caliber C (Kaman). Also can trade our first.

Horf / Kaman / Collins

Smoove / Amir J / Jo Smith

MW / Mo

Crawf / Derozan

Calderon / Bibby

There are so many possibilities and seemingly so many fans that seem afraid to even contemplate the idea of trading our $15M expiring all-star. An open mind is a wonderful thing.

[exodus]

If i was betting on this i would bet that JJ walks. When that happens the Hawks are going to be screwed, good enough to win a few games but not good enough to be true contenders unless they somehow manage to land a true star (unlikely). they also won't be bad enough to have a good chance to land a franchise player in the lottery.

That is what i think is coming but i hope i'm wrong.

I remember the Nique trade. I had just started following the team. I hated the way Manning played. If he would have resigned i probably would have stopped following the team. He was such a pansy.

The other players didn't appreciate the big crowd that Nique got in his return game. They were like "where were all these people when he was here?".

Edited January 25, 2010 by exodus

[txsting]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AjHtYogaN.2RavDA76N7o328vLYF?slug=ap-nbaplayers-haiti&prov=ap&type=lgns

I was just going to post this about the Haiti thing. I hope that JJ was just trying to put points on the board for Haiti. But regardless, the man can give them any sum he likes, it's not an excuse to play selfish ball. More of a positive PR mention than anything.

[AHF]

Kaman and Baron for JJ and Bibby for example. If we did that, Zaza becomes expendable. zaza and a first shold get us a nice young SG to play with Crawf (like Fernandez).

Horf / Kaman / Collins

Smoove / Jo Smith

MW / Mo

Crawf / Fernandez

Baron / Teague

Another interesting proposal:

Calderon / Derozan / Amir Johnson for JJ

There are so many possibilities and seemingly so many fans that seem afraid to even contemplate the idea of trading our $15M expiring all-star. An open mind is a wonderful thing.

With Baron and Kaman, they would completely eliminate the chance of us resigning Al unless the owners are willing to absolutely pay through the nose. Baron and Kaman will be paid $24M and 26M the next two years.

Calderon/Deronzan/Amire would make me want to cry if we traded JJ for that poo-poo platter.

If those are among the best choices, I will happily gamble on resigning JJ.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If i was betting on this i would bet that JJ walks. When that happens the Hawks are going to be screwed, good enough to win a few games but not good enough to be true contenders unless they somehow manage to land a true star (unlikely). they also won't be bad enough to have a good chance to land a franchise player in the lottery.

That is what i think is coming but i hope i'm wrong.

I remember the Nique trade. I had just started following the team. I hated the way Manning played. If he would have resigned i probably would have stopped following the team. He was such a pansy.

The other players didn't appreciate the big crowd that Nique got in his return game. They were like "where were all these people when he was here?".

I remember that return game. It was reminiscent of the Michael Vick homecoming this year when the Eagles played the Falcons. Except that the crowd cheered much more loudly for Nique. And I knew we were in trouble that year when Manning didn't respond to Nique coming back to ATL at all. Nique scored 36 in that game. Manning scored 6. I mean, the dude didn't even attempt to elevate his game, to let the fans know that the trade was allright.

If we do trade JJ, and don't get the right players back in return, we're still screwed ( possibly even more ). Any center we bring in here will directly affect the chemistry of this team, unless we run everything through Horford, and try to turn him into a 20 ppg scorer. I'm not sure he has that in him yet. Bringing in a center slides Josh Smith to SF. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

With our record being what it is right now, the Hawks MUST play this thing out. No way they can blink like Babcock did, and trade the guy that your entire offense is based around ( for better or for worse . . according to what people think about the offense ), simply for complimentary players. No team has ever won doing a move like that.

[LordOfNYork]

Looked like to me that he was trying to get one more basket to get 20 points on the night. With the lead like it was, it was almost like he was teling himself . . . "I got to get 20 . . I got to get 20"

Two of those shots in the 4th, he should always take, because those were "his" shots. The shots he normally makes. I don't necessarily have a problem with his shot selection. He's the shooter and the tough shot maker on the team, so he has the green light at all times.

But after starting 5 - 6 FG, he was already 2 for his last 6 going into the quarter. with each miss, he just got colder. He ended up missng 9 of his last 11 shots.

People want to pit JJ vs Jamal for some reason. This is JJ's team. Everybody knows this. But with him taking 5 shots in a 4 minute span, it looked more like he was trying to get 20 points, than trying to compete with Crawford

I agree though, that he should've gone for 10 assists, before going for 20 points. He played a damn good game tonight though, minus that 4 minute stretch.

NOTE: He's made 2 of his last 14 threes. If you add the Phoenix game, he's 3 for his last 21 from three. He just needs to lay off the 3-ball for a while, if he misses his first 2 attempts from three.

LOL really?! I would hate for this guy to be labeled as my team. Superstars own their place as "their team". Johnson is far from superstar status, sorry. Crawford's >>> and he doesn't even try hard. Hawks are looking good though. Hopefully they keep playing well and their home fans show more support. Heard they are 10th in the league in road attendance. Pretty sad the home attendance can't match

[Plainview1981]

JJ is still our best player, but he and Woody are holding other players back. JJ's next contract will be a disaster. I think that the other core pieces of the team could be much more productive with better coaching (not hard) and a non iso joe offense. JJ's a good player, but Woody and being the only good player on the team for a couple of years has totally screwed up his head.

He's the only Hawks that doesn't give me the impression of really being one of the guys.

He has trade value and we can improve positions that I think are more important, like PG and C wnd still feild Crawf and maybe a guy like Fernandez and improve the PG/C positions with a JJ move.

This team has more potential. Replace Woodson and trade JJ.

I've got t thread on the REALGM trade board and there are many interesting proposals.

Kaman and Baron for JJ and Bibby for example. If we did that, Zaza becomes expendable. zaza and a first shold get us a nice young SG to play with Crawf (like Fernandez).

Horf / Kaman / Collins

Smoove / Jo Smith

MW / Mo

Crawf / Fernandez

Baron / Teague

Another interesting proposal:

Calderon / Derozan / Amir Johnson for JJ

Trade Zaza / Teague and filler for a solid starting caliber C (Kaman). Also can trade our first.

Horf / Kaman / Collins

Smoove / Amir J / Jo Smith

MW / Mo

Crawf / Derozan

Calderon / Bibby

There are so many possibilities and seemingly so many fans that seem afraid to even contemplate the idea of trading our $15M expiring all-star. An open mind is a wonderful thing.

Don't really want Baron. He is past his prime and overrated at the same time. Calderon might be the worst defensive guard in the NBA. YES worse than Bibby. He is a big reason why Toronto is such a bad defensive team.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[Sothron]

I remember that return game. It was reminiscent of the Michael Vick homecoming this year when the Eagles played the Falcons. Except that the crowd cheered much more loudly for Nique. And I knew we were in trouble that year when Manning didn't respond to Nique coming back to ATL at all. Nique scored 36 in that game. Manning scored 6. I mean, the dude didn't even attempt to elevate his game, to let the fans know that the trade was allright.

If we do trade JJ, and don't get the right players back in return, we're still screwed ( possibly even more ). Any center we bring in here will directly affect the chemistry of this team, unless we run everything through Horford, and try to turn him into a 20 ppg scorer. I'm not sure he has that in him yet. Bringing in a center slides Josh Smith to SF. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

With our record being what it is right now, the Hawks MUST play this thing out. No way they can blink like Babcock did, and trade the guy that your entire offense is based around ( for better or for worse . . according to what people think about the offense ), simply for complimentary players. No team has ever won doing a move like that.

I just have to point out, as I've done for years here, that people don't know the real story about Nique. He already rejected a long term deal to stay in Atlanta because he wanted more money. Pete Babcock knew Nique was on dying legs and Nique's post Atlanta performance showed that in SPADES. Pete was given an oral promise by Manning and his agent that they would resign in Atlanta which they obviously broke. However that was a blessing in disguise for us as Pete used that money and cap room to sign Deke.

Now who would we rather have, Deke in his prime years or Nique in his horrible declining years? Hmm...tough call.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I just have to point out, as I've done for years here, that people don't know the real story about Nique. He already rejected a long term deal to stay in Atlanta because he wanted more money. Pete Babcock knew Nique was on dying legs and Nique's post Atlanta performance showed that in SPADES. Pete was given an oral promise by Manning and his agent that they would resign in Atlanta which they obviously broke. However that was a blessing in disguise for us as Pete used that money and cap room to sign Deke.

Now who would we rather have, Deke in his prime years or Nique in his horrible declining years? Hmm...tough call.

I know all about the story man. Nique wanted something ridiculous! like a 3yr - 21 mill extension ( which was pretty big money back then ). And I know all about the BS agreement between the Hawks and Manning, and the promise od a pretty lucrative deal at the end of the season.

But it was a completely idiotic move by Babcock to make, and the fans and everybody in the national media knew it. We were the NUMBER ONE team in the East at the time of that trade. Nique, while erratic, was still capable of exploding on people at any given time. And the team around him knew how to work around Nique's erratic play. SEATTLE was the elite team that year, and we led the group of teams right behind them.

The trade took any legit shot at a title away from us. Danny Manning didn't have it in him to be the lead dog on this team.

With Nique being in the last year of his deal, and with him being on arguably the best Hawk team of his life, don't you think that dude would've gone all out to win a title that year? With no Jordan around, the East was WIDE OPEN.

So if you as me whether I would've gambled on Nique trying to lead us to the NBA Finals . . . . or losing him and Manning, to later sign Dikembe ( who never got past the 2nd round ) . . . . the answer is easy.

I'm gambling on the guy who was then STILL considered to be a superstar player . . Dominique.

That verbal agreement had as much backbone as the verbal agreement Danny Ferry made with Boozer. That agreement by him may have very well cost Cleveland a few NBA titles. A Lebron - Boozer combo the last 5 years would've been a load to handle.

So when it comes to JJ this year, there's no way in heck that you move him, in fear of getting nothing back. Because the pieces you may get back won't take you any further than what we already are in the first place.

Starpower wins titles, not a collection of complimentary players. That's why the good team we beat last night, has virtually no shot at winning anything this year. They simply don't have the guy who can carry them when things go bad. LOL . . . they do, but they refuse to play him.

If we trade JJ, we dang well better get a guy at, or above his level, no matter what the position the guy we bring in plays.

[Sothron]

So you would have rolled the dice with Nique, given him an insane extension and missed out on the best defensive center in the NBA since Russell played. It is no wonder why internet GMing is easier. :tongue:

I don't disagree with you about trading JJ for scrap parts but if you do know a guy isn't coming back...and Nique btw had told Pete he wasn't coming back for a penny less than he demanded...then you have to look at the player and see what's best for the team long term. I have never blamed Pete for what he did because I would have done the same thing except it might not be Manning I would have went after. It definitely worked out for the better for us though.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So you would have rolled the dice with Nique, given him an insane extension and missed out on the best defensive center in the NBA since Russell played. It is no wonder why internet GMing is easier. :tongue:

What I would've done, is let Nique play out the end of his deal, and make my offer depending on how far he led us in the playoffs at year's end. Despite Nique's demands, that guy was going to still play hard for the Hawks. And I felt that Babcock not only owed it to him, but to Hawk fans, to keep that squad together the entire year to see if they could make a run at a ring.

It was our best, and so far only shot at a title. And he was more worried about getting something in return for Nique, than actually trying to bolster the bench to make us a stronger team to win a ring.

I would've simply played "chicken" with Nique, banking that the rest of the league wouldn't think he was worth near as much as he and his agent thought he was. He was an aging star player. And the league back then were investing most of their money in the 1st round picks. When the Clips decided not to re-sign Nique, he got a real dose of reality around the league about his worth.

But if we lost him for nothing . . . oh well. We just retool the team and build around Mookie. ( something we ended up doing anyway ). But my offer to him, iif we at least made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, would've been 2 yrs at 10 million. If we got to the Finals or won a title, I may have given him the 3/21 deal . . or negotiated less years but more per year.

What Nique sign for in Boston? Something like 11 mill for 3 years? He didn't want to take that, but he had to. The market quickly let him know that teams weren't going to pay him that much

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So you would have rolled the dice with Nique, given him an insane extension and missed out on the best defensive center in the NBA since Russell played. It is no wonder why internet GMing is easier. :tongue:

What I would've done, is let Nique play out the end of his deal, and make my offer depending on how far he led us in the playoffs at year's end. Despite Nique's demands, that guy was going to still play hard for the Hawks. And I felt that Babcock not only owed it to him, but to Hawk fans, to keep that squad together the entire year to see if they could make a run at a ring.

It was our best shot at a title, outside of the Celtics series in '88. And he was more worried about getting something in return for Nique, than actually trying to bolster the bench to make us a stronger team to win a ring.

I would've simply played "chicken" with Nique, banking that the rest of the league wouldn't think he was worth near as much as he and his agent thought he was. He was an aging star player. And the league back then were investing most of their money in the 1st round picks. When the Clips decided not to re-sign Nique, he got a real dose of reality around the league about his worth.

But if we lost him for nothing . . . oh well. We just retool the team and build around Mookie. ( something we ended up doing anyway ). But my offer to him, iif we at least made it to the Eastern Conference Finals, would've been 2 yrs at 10 million. If we got to the Finals or won a title, I may have given him the 3/21 deal . . or negotiated less years but more money per year.

What Nique sign for in Boston? Something like 11 mill for 3 years? He didn't want to take that, but he had to. The market quickly let him know that teams weren't going to pay him that much

[Plainview1981]

I know all about the story man. Nique wanted something ridiculous! like a 3yr - 21 mill extension ( which was pretty big money back then ). And I know all about the BS agreement between the Hawks and Manning, and the promise od a pretty lucrative deal at the end of the season.

But it was a completely idiotic move by Babcock to make, and the fans and everybody in the national media knew it. We were the NUMBER ONE team in the East at the time of that trade. Nique, while erratic, was still capable of exploding on people at any given time. And the team around him knew how to work around Nique's erratic play. SEATTLE was the elite team that year, and we led the group of teams right behind them.

The trade took any legit shot at a title away from us. Danny Manning didn't have it in him to be the lead dog on this team.

With Nique being in the last year of his deal, and with him being on arguably the best Hawk team of his life, don't you think that dude would've gone all out to win a title that year? With no Jordan around, the East was WIDE OPEN.

So if you as me whether I would've gambled on Nique trying to lead us to the NBA Finals . . . . or losing him and Manning, to later sign Dikembe ( who never got past the 2nd round ) . . . . the answer is easy.

I'm gambling on the guy who was then STILL considered to be a superstar player . . Dominique.

That verbal agreement had as much backbone as the verbal agreement Danny Ferry made with Boozer. That agreement by him may have very well cost Cleveland a few NBA titles. A Lebron - Boozer combo the last 5 years would've been a load to handle.

So when it comes to JJ this year, there's no way in heck that you move him, in fear of getting nothing back. Because the pieces you may get back won't take you any further than what we already are in the first place.

Starpower wins titles, not a collection of complimentary players. That's why the good team we beat last night, has virtually no shot at winning anything this year. They simply don't have the guy who can carry them when things go bad. LOL . . . they do, but they refuse to play him.

If we trade JJ, we dang well better get a guy at, or above his level, no matter what the position the guy we bring in plays.

JJ is not a superstar. JJ for the most part has NOT carried this team in the playoffs. I know he had that one big period against Boston, but all and all, his play hasn't been much if any better in the playoffs. His 16PPG in the playoffs last year sure isn't going to scare anybody. This team doesn't have star power. Even with JJ they're basically the Twins of basketball.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Hotlanta1981

[TheNorthCydeRises]

JJ is not a superstar. JJ for the most part has NOT carried this team in the playoffs.

I'm not going to disagree with that much. He has definitely had his monents in the playoffs, but nothing superstar worthy ( other than Game 4 vs Boston and Game7 vs Miami )

I know he had that one big period against Boston, but all and all, his play hasn't been much if any better in the playoffs.

He's playing better than he played last year, even if his stats are similar. That dude is starting to have monster type games on the road, a sign that he is mentally prepared when we go on the road. That's why I'm looking forward to his performances in this year's playoffs. He's a more aggressive and assertive player this year. I don't expect any disappearing acts from him in the playoffs.

His 16PPG in the playoffs last year sure isn't going to scare anybody. This team doesn't have star power. Even with JJ they're basically the Twins of basketball.

Which is why you don't trade JJ for a bunch of complimentary players, because they don't add any starpower to the team either. So we might as well roll with what we have right now.

JJ averaged a little over 15 shots a game in the playoffs last year. Don't expect that at all this year. His mindset this year is to try to carry the team offensively, not defer to others all the time.

You'll think otherwise, as expected.