Marvin Williams is not a bust!

[Crank]

I never thought Marvin was a bust but games like this basically magnify just how often he stands around doing absolutely nothing when he doesnt need the ball to integrate himself into the game physically.Hustle plays offensive rebounding simply batting the ball off the glass giving us another chance at it all makes a difference.

[High5]

Well you make a very good point there High5. I really don't see what I would call "situational" coaching from Woody. He seems to have a standard gameplan and just rides it and asks for defensive effort every night. He doesn't adapt. Therefore he is easy to gameplan against. There should be nights when Marvin is basically a D guy and rebounder - but other nights when he can exploit an advantage. Same with the other guys.

It amazes me that NFL coaching staffs put in special packages (O and D) against each team..after watching tons of film...to exploit matchups in basically a 30 player game (11 on O 11 on D plus specialists depending on down and distance)...and we just run the same old thing.

I realize the NFL is different than the NBA...but coaching is coaching and you have to challenge players and be smarter than the average joe.

That's probably the most frustrating thing about the team for me. When Joe, Marvin, Josh, and Horford on the floor there's going to be at least one favorable matchup but too often it seems like they just ignore it. And as far as Marvin, we have seen him be the Marvin everyone hoped for when he's been the go-to guy. I still remember vividly those 34 FTs he got in the two game stretch without Joe last year. It's not like Marvin is a ball hog and failing, he's just not getting the chance. (which is part his fault, but Woodson needs to get the most out of his players)

[coachx]

I truly believe this team would be a .500 team with Chris Paul. We wouldn't have Bibby, a decent SF, and no depth at point. But knowing Woody, CP3 would be a bonifde D leaguer by now.

We would not have Al Horford either.

[coachx]

That's probably the most frustrating thing about the team for me. When Joe, Marvin, Josh, and Horford on the floor there's going to be at least one favorable matchup but too often it seems like they just ignore it. And as far as Marvin, we have seen him be the Marvin everyone hoped for when he's been the go-to guy. I still remember vividly those 34 FTs he got in the two game stretch without Joe last year. It's not like Marvin is a ball hog and failing, he's just not getting the chance. (which is part his fault, but Woodson needs to get the most out of his players)

Marvin took advantage of Hinrich a few times in the post..............JJ went to town in the post a few times too.

Nice to see the team recognizing the mis-matches.

Marvin plays well for the role that is asked of him. He has really been a fairly consistent player given his minutes.

Is he an allstar. No............but he is a versitle, Derrick McKey like glue piece that any winning team would love to have.

[DJlaysitup]

he's just not getting the chance....

I hate to pluck things out of your post High5...but the truth is Marvin has had a TON of chances...all you needed to know that was his MVP season in the Summer League...when he was MVP and got every call.

The problem with Marvin is he plays like a 6'6" fella. He doesn't elevate. Actually there are 6'6" players that can get up (quickly) higher than him.

All things considered...

[High5]

I hate to pluck things out of your post High5...but the truth is Marvin has had a TON of chances...all you needed to know that was his MVP season in the Summer League...when he was MVP and got every call.

The problem with Marvin is he plays like a 6'6" fella. He doesn't elevate. Actually there are 6'6" players that can get up (quickly) higher than him.

All things considered...

Maybe saying he hasn't gotten a chance is the wrong thing to say, but he clearly hasn't been pushed by Woodson in any way. It's not a good quality to have, but the fact is Marvin needs to be pushed and as the head coach you're supposed to maximize your talent. I don't think most coaches would have a problem drawing up a play for Marvin to try and take advantage of a guy like Durant.

I also don't get what the summer league has to do with anything.

[DjGrizz]

Multiple Allstar and considered the best PG in the league.

Nique, Barkley, Dikembe, Stockton, Malone, Payton, Webber, and Ewing never won Jack Squat either.. they were still great players.

Amen

[TruJerz]

Marvin Williams = Joe Smith.

A guy who can play a long time in this league. Didn't live up to his hype but def not a bust.

Chris Paul fans give it a rest. Chris Paul has won jack squat.

I agree..I think Marvin is a good player and will be a solid role player his whole career and can be a key piece on a championship team

Edited February 6, 2010 by TruJerz

[FrankWhite]

How about Laettner?

Christian Laettner was by no means a bust, and I say this as a Tar Heel who has no love for him and had qualms rooting for him as a Hawk.

In his prime, he was an automatic 16-18 ppg, 8 rpg guy. He made the All Star team.

So are we arguing about out and out busts (guys who never did anything in the league) or guys who just didn't measure up to predraft expectations? The definite correlation for Marvin right now is Joe Smith, solid player, never lived up to his draft status. But I think it's weird for a Hawks fan to put forth Laettner as a bust. He's one of a handful of Hawks to actually make an All Star team over the last 15 years.

[Guest]

Marvin is not even close to a bust. The guy just does what is asked of him. He can easily be a 18-20ppg scorer in this league if given more of an opportunity on offense. Luckily, we are in a great position to have many offensive weapons. He plays awesome defense as well and does little things that don't show up in the boxscore. There was one play tonight where he just did an awesome job on Luol Deng and literally had his hand an inch away from Deng's face. Somehow the miracle shot went in for Deng but I don't think you can play better D than he did on that particular play. When you watch him defending someone, his fundamentals are flawless and because he's 6'8" with long arms, he really makes it difficult for his opposition. Great job Marv, keep doing what your doing my man.

[Diesel]

I think but now I could be wrong...but I really think Marvin defends his position better than the three of them put together. And one other thing...did any of them ever have a season of 14 and 6 at a .450 fg% which does show serious promise of a better offensive output than 10ppg as well.

Now Diesel its pretty obvious you think Marvin is a pure bust as he will never live up to being the 2nd pick in the draft. What I cannot quite figure out is why you have to keep telling us this. I am in my 50s but my memory is really not that bad yet.

With us, Laettner was a 18, 9, .486 player.. matching his rookie year.

Ferry's best season was a 14, 4, .459 year.

[Diesel]

Maybe saying he hasn't gotten a chance is the wrong thing to say, but he clearly hasn't been pushed by Woodson in any way. It's not a good quality to have, but the fact is Marvin needs to be pushed and as the head coach you're supposed to maximize your talent. I don't think most coaches would have a problem drawing up a play for Marvin to try and take advantage of a guy like Durant.

I also don't get what the summer league has to do with anything.

IF you haven't noticed, Woody doesn't push anybody. Nor do most coaches. Woody's push for Marvin is the fact that Marvin is still starting when facts suggests that he should be coming off the bench. However, look around the league. What coaches have to spend their time pushing one player. The reason being is because the other players on that team would not respect that player. A great example of this is what we see in OKC. In OKC, Durant was never Pushed. Durant came in and Made himself the man. Now that he has been the man a while, he has learned how to integrate others into the offense. Same is true with Nate Robinson in NY. He made himself the man... but at the same time, his coach/GM has him on the trade blocks. Has benched him a few times. Has said that he's not a fit. In San Anton, Popp didn't push Duncan. Had he pushed Duncan, we would probably have never heard of Ginobili. I remember it was David Robinson who took a young Duncan under his wing and taught him how to be the man.

The problem with Marvin is that We have given him opportunity after opportunity and he does nothing.

Now get this...

Marvin plays the same offensive position that Al Jefferson played... Under the same coach. Does their play look anything similar? It's nothing in the gameplanning that Makes Marvin so sorry... It's Marvin himself. This is proved when marvin is not playing.

[Diesel]

Christian Laettner was by no means a bust, and I say this as a Tar Heel who has no love for him and had qualms rooting for him as a Hawk.

In his prime, he was an automatic 16-18 ppg, 8 rpg guy. He made the All Star team.

So are we arguing about out and out busts (guys who never did anything in the league) or guys who just didn't measure up to predraft expectations? The definite correlation for Marvin right now is Joe Smith, solid player, never lived up to his draft status. But I think it's weird for a Hawks fan to put forth Laettner as a bust. He's one of a handful of Hawks to actually make an All Star team over the last 15 years.

I got this from another messageboard... Do as you please with it:

Christian Laettner anyone?

This is a difference between a "bust" and a bad player.

A "bust" is someone who comes in with major talent/expectations and falls flat on his face:

Darko, Rogers, Andre Ware, Juan Gone are the big busts.

A bad players is someone who has expectations (or money) thrust upon them even though they don't have the talent to do so:

Greg Hill, Lattener, Loy Vaught, Rodney White, Uwe Krupp, Bob Essensa, Schröder, Hakim, Westbrook, Nate Cornejo, Fernando Vina, Franklyn German

[spotatl]

Bogut is a borderline allstar center- if you are calling him a bust you are just using the term wrong. To me there is a perfect definition of a bust- if you ahve your 3rd or 4th year team options declined (or no QO after your 5th year) then you were so terrible that teams didn't even want the obligation they gave to you when you were drafted. Shelden was a bust. Acie was a bust. Marvin got a nice contract when he hit FA- he is not a bust at all Maybe he was a bad pick but the term Bust needs to be saved for guys where teams don't even want them on the roster.

[Buzzard]

With us, Laettner was a 18, 9, .486 player.. matching his rookie year.

Ferry's best season was a 14, 4, .459 year.

Laettner not a bust. Solid contributor as a starter for five straight seasons and a great role player for the rest of that time.

Ferry a bust. He was a full time starter for one season and it was his best. But not 14 and 4; you pumped that up a little. It was 13.3 and 3.80 @.459

Darko easily the biggest bust so far of the group.

[MaceCase]

Bogut is a borderline allstar center- if you are calling him a bust you are just using the term wrong. To me there is a perfect definition of a bust- if you ahve your 3rd or 4th year team options declined (or no QO after your 5th year) then you were so terrible that teams didn't even want the obligation they gave to you when you were drafted. Shelden was a bust. Acie was a bust. Marvin got a nice contract when he hit FA- he is not a bust at all Maybe he was a bad pick but the term Bust needs to be saved for guys where teams don't even want them on the roster.

See that's too logical of a definition for some. Guys like Korolev, "Skita", "Hoffa" are true busts. Darko and Kwame are busts as well but managed to eek out plenty of contracts after their rookie deals mainly because they are both legit bigmen in a league starved for them. For that they managed to get lucrative deals because of the premium set at their position but both still just managed to end up on the end of the bench as large trade filler rather than anything close to productive.

All this is pointless though, there seems to be a pretty consensus definition of what clarifies a bust and many agree that Marvin and Bogut have not lived up to those that came behind them but are above and beyond productive NBA players. Agendaman is simply using this thread as yet another chance to spout old tangential arguments and use subjective evidence that has nothing to do with the current argument to prove nothing but what we already know about him.

[Buzzard]

See that's too logical of a definition for some. Guys like Korolev, "Skita", "Hoffa" are true busts. Darko and Kwame are busts as well but managed to eek out plenty of contracts after their rookie deals mainly because they are both legit bigmen in a league starved for them. For that they managed to get lucrative deals because of the premium set at their position but both still just managed to end up on the end of the bench as large trade filler rather than anything close to productive.

All this is pointless though, there seems to be a pretty consensus definition of what clarifies a bust and many agree that Marvin and Bogut have not lived up to those that came behind them but are above and beyond productive NBA players. Agendaman is simply using this thread as yet another chance to spout old tangential arguments and use subjective evidence that has nothing to do with the current argument to prove nothing but what we already know about him.

I agree man. I have always thought that a lottery pick should at least be a starter to not get my label bust. But even that can have a gray area. Crawford is a great example of a player finding his perfect niche IMO as a sixth man. So now a good sixth man who was taken as a high lotto is no longer considered a bust by me.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Buzzard

[DJlaysitup]

Let's all remember...if Marvin was still in college...

....he'd be working on his PhD .

[DJlaysitup]

... Crawford is a great example of a player finding his perfect niche IMO as a sixth man....

It is what it is - but IMO having you 2nd best player coming off the bench is silly. As a Celtics poster on realgm said "theyv'e got MJ coming off the bench"...of course that is an exaggeration - but it makes one think.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

In no way, shape, or form should Laettner even be in this conversation.

Those other guys?

Dajuan Wagner was clearly a bust. While he was a dynamic player in college, he was an undersized 2-guard who wasn't even as good as Salim. So if he couldn't play the point, he had to be lights out as a scorer. He couldn't do either on the pro level.

Darko is clearly a bust. He actually had a chance to resurrect his career, and become a defensive stopper type player. But if he can't even get playing time on a real bad New York team without a true center, then he's a bust.

Ferry is a bust. He parlayed that one decent season into another 4 - 5 year deal. A deal that Cleveland regretted tremendously. Ferry was no more than a wannabe spot-up 2 guard, in a PF's body.

Marvin isn't a bust . . . yet . . . but he can't keep seeing his numbers fall off like it has. Even if he has a reduced role on the team,he still needs to be efficient and active. There's no reason why Marvin shouldn't be shooting 47% FG or more from the field, seeing that he's basically an open spot up jumpshooter. 44% FG and 34% 3FG, is pretty much unacceptable from him. He has to raise those numbers significantly, even if he isn't scoring a lot of points.

Diesel, what you said 3 - 4 years ago, has come true, even though most people were against you back then. Marvin has essentially become Derrick McKey . . . a guy who was a quality starter in this league that played on teams that had 2 - 3 all-stars or borderline all-stars. McKey, during his prime years, was basically a 13 - 14 ppg . . 5 - 6 rebound guy . . who shot in the in the high 40% FG range, and was a good defender. McKey wasn't the 2nd pick in the draft, but he was a lottery pick. I don't know if many people would consider him a bust. Having said that, Marvin can't keep playing like he has for most of the season. The effort he's given in the past 2 days, is really how he has to play from now on.

McKey played with . . .

SEATTLE . . . McKey was a starter alongside Tom Chambers, Dale Ellis, Xavier McDaniel, Ricky Pierce, Eddie Johnson, Shawn Kemp, and Gary Payton

INDIANA . . . McKey was a starter alongside Rik Smits, Dale Davis, Reggie Miller . . . and moved to the bench as he aged, and saw Jalen Rose take his spot.