The Toronto game should KILL the life without JJ talk.

[exodus]

Joe Johnson doesn't play, we win a road game by 20 points. I don't care if its the Nets, its still a NBA team, and the Nets have been playing.."good" basketball as of late. Now...when we go up there to Toronto, and beat them without Joe, I want this talk to end. All we need is another Big man, and a scoring guard, and we're fine..

.....whats that I see? Ball Movement ion the 4th Quarter?....I'm walking on sunshine!

[BrazilianHawk]

The Hawks again showing their ineptitude. Sure we got robbed a possession in the review, but this game should've been over long ago. Smoove's a great player but his BBIQ makes me cry.

UGLY LOSS.

[exodus]

I am not too upset even though they choked again. It was nice to see guys step up in JJ's absence. Unfortunately Marvin succombed to MVP23's curse and the "team MVP" was only 5-15 from the field and 50% from the line.

[Diesel]

I'd LOVE to hear your crazy logic on why you think that is. Its in Joe Johnson's best interest to have a S&T but we really need to hear why you think it would be better for Chicago or New York to do the S&T.

I think it's best for either of those teams to do a SNT so that they can free up more cap space and go after other players (Like Bosh).

A SNT works well for everyone if:

1. Joe agrees (this is a must).

2. Atlanta gets a player they want.

What can't happen is Joe strong arm us into a sign and trade and we end up with Sorry Luol Deng and his bad contract...

However, Sund should happily do a SNT for Galls and Wilson. Or Lee...

[Diesel]

Diesel- you do know that the Hawks are 5th in the league in assist rate this season? How on earth can you think that this team doesn't pass the ball when Joe Johnson is playing? The Hawks have a higher assist rate than the Suns this season.

Actually, we;re 9th in the league in assists.

But,

Assist rate and ball movement are 2 different things.

To me, Ball movement is being able to have a possession where at least 3 people touch the ball. In an Iso offense, Assists can be inflated inan ISO offense because 1 guy holds the ball and then passes to a man who completes a shot. When that happens, that's not ball movement. IN fact, when we play Iso ball, you can see that everybody else is just standing around. That is the kind of stuff that gets us killed when we play against Zone teams.

[Diesel]

I call BS. I haven't seen you cite a single instance where that has actually happened (much less every year), certainly not since the advent of BYC rules.

Nire, you must be a young timer...

HOW could you forget the plan in Orlando.

They almost had Tmac, Hill, and Duncan.

It took David Robinson calling Duncan over to the House to stop it. But they still got Tmac and Hill.

There's no BS in it. IN big FA years, teams usually try to get big names together.

Sometimes, it's legendary Fail..

Like Chicago.

They cleared up Cap Room during the same year that Orlando got TMac and Hill and all they got was Eddie Jones.

[Plainview1981]

I am not too upset even though they choked again. It was nice to see guys step up in JJ's absence. Unfortunately Marvin succombed to MVP23's curse and the "team MVP" was only 5-15 from the field and 50% from the line.

Marvin fell to his own ineptness like has many times before. Outside of Bibby, he is easily the most replaceable starter. Marvin will never be better than an average starter at best. A bad loss, but end in the end it probably will not be a difference maker.

[BusBoyIsBack]

This team was doomed to lose today by the curse of the newbie

[MaceCase]

Nire, you must be a young timer...

HOW could you forget the plan in Orlando.

They almost had Tmac, Hill, and Duncan.

It took David Robinson calling Duncan over to the House to stop it. But they still got Tmac and Hill.

There's no BS in it. IN big FA years, teams usually try to get big names together.

Sometimes, it's legendary Fail..

Like Chicago.

They cleared up Cap Room during the same year that Orlando got TMac and Hill and all they got was Eddie Jones.

You are just as confused as camp. They have the caproom to sign multiple free agents outright.

They do not owe Atlanta anything to sign Joe Johnson and certainly nothing of actual value. They are far more likely to tell us to take back one of their bad contracts or give us the lowest rung of prospect or pick as compensation. Period.

If I have 20 dollars and a shirt costs $15 I can just buy the damn shirt. I don't need to trade in the pants I walked into the store with to buy that shirt.

[Marvin24Williams]

There is a BIG difference between BEING clutch and having the ABILITY to make clutch shots. I said, he CAN MAKE clutch shots. Outside of Craw, who do we have on the team who can consistently do that?

I'll wait...

He's not clutch period. No one on this team is clutch. Joe Johnson SOMETIMES, has the ability to make clutch shots, but overall? HE'S NOT CLUTCH ! I mean if it's a game winning situation i'd rather have bibby or craw shoot the ball.

[thecampster]

You are just as confused as camp. They have the caproom to sign multiple free agents outright.

They do not owe Atlanta anything to sign Joe Johnson and certainly nothing of actual value. They are far more likely to tell us to take back one of their bad contracts or give us the lowest rung of prospect or pick as compensation. Period.

If I have 20 dollars and a shirt costs $15 I can just buy the damn shirt. I don't need to trade in the pants I walked into the store with to buy that shirt.

I never said they owe us anything. I said it could be beneficial. JJ is going to sign with the highest / longest contract bidder. Once the Hawks come to grips with this, they will see what they can benefit. Here is how the first part of the Hawks logic works. The Hawks can sign JJ without penalty because he is theirs but can not sign someone else. If JJ is going to bolt, they are going to lose him for nothing because they can't resign someone else to take his place. However, they could trade JJ for another player or 2 and that player becomes theres and the JJ no penalty rule applies. The new team if they gave JJ a 17 million dollar contract would take a 17 million dollar hit against their cap. So the Hawks instead do a sign and trade for JJ where they take back 10 million dollars in salary the other team doesn't need (say they have 3 points and only need 2 and want to develop the new guy). We take that point and that means the new team is only using 7 million of their cap money on JJ and they now have 10 million they wouldn't have had to buy a new agent.

In short, I'm not confused.

Lastly, JJ plays along at the behest of his new team for one important reason. He wants the best players on the floor on his new team. This is how that gets done. Would JJ not want New York to sign both him and Bosh if it was possible with a little wiggling? I think he would.

[thecampster]

You are just as confused as camp. They have the caproom to sign multiple free agents outright.

They do not owe Atlanta anything to sign Joe Johnson and certainly nothing of actual value. They are far more likely to tell us to take back one of their bad contracts or give us the lowest rung of prospect or pick as compensation. Period.

If I have 20 dollars and a shirt costs $15 I can just buy the damn shirt. I don't need to trade in the pants I walked into the store with to buy that shirt.

Using a similar analogy to yours. I want to but a new $700 laptop. I own a 3 year old laptop. I sell the old one on Craiglist for $200. Someone will get use out of it and it's better than the no laptop they had and they don't have to save up a full $700. I then go buy the $700 laptop but have $200 left over. That's the benefit.

[niremetal]

Nire, you must be a young timer...

HOW could you forget the plan in Orlando.

They almost had Tmac, Hill, and Duncan.

It took David Robinson calling Duncan over to the House to stop it. But they still got Tmac and Hill.

There's no BS in it. IN big FA years, teams usually try to get big names together.

Sometimes, it's legendary Fail..

Like Chicago.

They cleared up Cap Room during the same year that Orlando got TMac and Hill and all they got was Eddie Jones.

Except that's not how it went down. First, Orlando already had the cap space to sign both Hill and McGrady outright. The pressure for the sign-and-trade came from the players, not the Magic, because the players wanted the more lucrative deals that their original teams could offer. Second, both Atkins and Wallace were already planning on signing with Detroit anyway (outright as FAs - search for a July 24, 2000 Orlando Sentinel article called "PISTONS TURN TABLES ON MAGIC BY LURING WALLACE , ATKINS"). The sign-and-trade was simply a way to structure the deal so that the players could join their respective teams more quickly and so that the trade restrictions that came with signing another team's players under the old CBA wouldn't apply. Finally (and less relevant to my challenge), though highly relevant to how things will play out this summer), McGrady was an RFA, so the Raptors possessed the right to match offers for McGrady. The Magic offered a conditional first round pick to the Raptors in order to make sure the Raptors didn't match. Obviously, that won't be true of the free agents hitting the market this summer, besides Rudy Gay.

In any case, clearing cap space for them was NOT an issue and NOT a motivating factor in those deals. The Magic had way more than enough cap space to sign both of them outright

Edited March 18, 2010 by niremetal

[Diesel]

You are just as confused as camp. They have the caproom to sign multiple free agents outright.

They do not owe Atlanta anything to sign Joe Johnson and certainly nothing of actual value. They are far more likely to tell us to take back one of their bad contracts or give us the lowest rung of prospect or pick as compensation. Period.

If I have 20 dollars and a shirt costs $15 I can just buy the damn shirt. I don't need to trade in the pants I walked into the store with to buy that shirt.

And what we're trying to get you to see is that if they want another star player to play beside Joe, they will need to get rid of them damn pants. In your analogy, you should have said, you're wearing tuxedo pants, but you would rather have Jeans.

I don't think NY or Chicago or any team will get Joe as a lone star. Joe has said that he doesn't want to start over again. That means that even though they may have the cash to buy Joe outright, if they can get Atlanta to agree to a SNT, they can get rid of those darn Tuxedo pants so that they can buy Jeans. Atlanta might do it because otherwise, they lose Joe for nothing. It would be far easier to get Joe in a SNT than Bosh (for instance). The Raptors will want something for Bosh because he is their whole team. Their something will be bigger than Atlanta's something. IF NY went after Joe for instance, they could give us Galls, take Joe and we'd call it a day. If They went after Bosh, they'd have to send back Lee to call it a day.

[Diesel]

Except that's not how it went down. First, Orlando already had the cap space to sign both Hill and McGrady outright. The pressure for the sign-and-trade came from the players, not the Magic, because the players wanted the more lucrative deals that their original teams could offer. Second, both Atkins and Wallace were already planning on signing with Detroit anyway (outright as FAs - search for a July 24, 2000 Orlando Sentinel article called "PISTONS TURN TABLES ON MAGIC BY LURING WALLACE , ATKINS"). The sign-and-trade was simply a way to structure the deal so that the players could join their respective teams more quickly and so that the trade restrictions that came with signing another team's players under the old CBA wouldn't apply. Finally (and less relevant to my challenge), though highly relevant to how things will play out this summer), McGrady was an RFA, so the Raptors possessed the right to match offers for McGrady. The Magic offered a conditional first round pick to the Raptors in order to make sure the Raptors didn't match. Obviously, that won't be true of the free agents hitting the market this summer, besides Rudy Gay.

In any case, clearing cap space for them was NOT an issue and NOT a motivating factor in those deals. The Magic had way more than enough cap space to sign both of them outright

McGrady Wants To Be Magic Man

McGrady Is A Free Agent

(AP) With Grant Hill seemingly a lock and Tim Duncan weighing his options, the Orlando Magic courted free agent forward Tracy McGrady on Wednesday.

And they must have liked McGrady's response.

The Magic are working on a sign-and-trade deal to add McGrady, who played for Toronto, to a team that could include Hill, who played with Detroit, and Duncan, who played with San Antonio.

"Once Grant and I get here, this will definitely be the city," McGrady told The Orlando Sentinel. "The East is locked up. If Duncan comes here, it will be scary.

"Only the (Los Angeles) Lakers will be out West. Imagine those matchups? It will be unfair to the league if all three of us come here. We'll have the East. We'll be playing the Lakers for years."

Hill seems poised to leave the Pistons and sign with the Magic for a six-year deal worth $67.5 million, with a first-year salary of $9 million. He is scheduled to meet with Pistons president Joe Dumars on Thursday, but Hill has told friends he's heading to Orlando.

"If what I'm reading is true, yeah, it will be a big disappointment," Dumars said.

Like Hill, Duncan and McGrady could sign for $67.5 million in Orlando or $86 million with their respective teams. Duncan still is undecided.

As for McGrady?

"Money is not an issue. It's all about being happy and comfortable," McGrady said. "I don't care how much I make, $67 million or $86 million. You can't spend it all anyway."

One scenario to get all three would involve a sign-and-trade. The Magic could sign free agent guard Ron Mercer, and then trade him along with several first-round draft choices and cash to the Raptors for McGrady.

No matter what, McGrady said he won't go back to Toronto, where he averaged 15 points and six rebounds in his third NBA season.

McGrady said he will make a courtesy visit to the Chicago Bulls on Friday and throw out a ceremonial first pitch for a White Sox-Cubs game on Saturday.

"Frankly, it's just out of respect," McGrady said of the upcoming visit. "They wanted me before I came into this league."

But now he wants to be in Orlando preferably with Hill and Duncan.

"I feel very comfortable here," he said. "I'll take a couple of days after the Chicago visit and then tell my agent the real deal. My No. 1 choice is Orlando."

From the AP...

[Rome26]

He's not clutch period. No one on this team is clutch. Joe Johnson SOMETIMES, has the ability to make clutch shots, but overall? HE'S NOT CLUTCH ! I mean if it's a game winning situation i'd rather have bibby or craw shoot the ball.

I guess it depends on what you mean by clutch. To me clutch means hitting big shots down the stretch in a tight ball game not JUST simply hitting a game winning shot. Take the Milwaukee game for example. JJ haters seems to forget that he hit the previous game tying bucket right before he missed the game winner. He's made huge shots to ice a game or give his team a shot to win several times. Buzzer beater aren't the only shots that qualify as clutch.

[MaceCase]

And what we're trying to get you to see is that if they want another star player to play beside Joe, they will need to get rid of them damn pants. In your analogy, you should have said, you're wearing tuxedo pants, but you would rather have Jeans.

I don't think NY or Chicago or any team will get Joe as a lone star. Joe has said that he doesn't want to start over again. That means that even though they may have the cash to buy Joe outright, if they can get Atlanta to agree to a SNT, they can get rid of those darn Tuxedo pants so that they can buy Jeans. Atlanta might do it because otherwise, they lose Joe for nothing. It would be far easier to get Joe in a SNT than Bosh (for instance). The Raptors will want something for Bosh because he is their whole team. Their something will be bigger than Atlanta's something. IF NY went after Joe for instance, they could give us Galls, take Joe and we'd call it a day. If They went after Bosh, they'd have to send back Lee to call it a day.

Do you understand the significance of NY trading three lottery picks to get rid of Jared Jeffries? Because his contract was the final hurdle to signing two maxes. Have you taken a gander at the Knicks roster? You are not getting Gallo, I'm sure you don't follow them but, like Miami with Beasley, they've had over a half dozen opportunities to trade him to get rid of both Jeffries and Curry's contracts... Didn't happen because Walsh believes he's untouchable for anyone short of Lebron. Even if the cap drops all the way down, all the Knicks need to sign both Lebron and Wade (the two big fish) outright is get rid of Chandler maybe along with Douglas not even including the Lee SnT card. That's it, Marvin Williams on a better contract and Toney Douglas in order to get Lebron and Wade. Those two can easily be dumped to any team for a pick given their contracts yet alone in a straight up trade with us.

Now have you taken a look at Chicago's roster? This should be easier but if they want a 2nd max free agent, well either of the poo poo platter of Deng or Hinrich would have to be included in the deal. That's the only way.

That for all intents and purposes is the only somethings we can expect to get back for Joe in a SnT deal from those teams. You and Camp aren't entirely wrong but you are extremely short sighted. You are making a proposal in a vacuum without actually considering the reality of the details. What did Orlando get in their SnT with Toronto for Hedo just last offseason? Shaw Marion was SnTraded in one of the more complicated deals last offseason by the Raptors for all of Devean George and Antoine Wright. What compensation did Philly receive for letting Andre Miller go? Go back a year further and what did GS get for Baron or LAC for Brand? Fact is there are over 500 situations where free agency went like that and all you two can come up with are situations where it could have turned out like you say. Which am I more inclined to believe to happen in this upcoming offseason?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Using a similar analogy to yours. I want to but a new $700 laptop. I own a 3 year old laptop. I sell the old one on Craiglist for $200. Someone will get use out of it and it's better than the no laptop they had and they don't have to save up a full $700. I then go buy the $700 laptop but have $200 left over. That's the benefit.

Bad analogy. JJ is the value piece in a sign and trade.

He definitely isn't the computer that you're reduced to selling for $200 on Craigslist, because people are willing to pay top dollar for that computer . . . or trade lesser computers ( or accessories ) for the high grade computer.

JJ is more like a fully loaded computer that you put on eBay, and letting people bid on the computer to get the most money you can get. Then you go out and buy a newer, but cheaper computer with a little less bells and whistles. It's not as good as your old computer, but it'll do. And you might have a little money left over, due to the fact that you sold your old computer at a higher price.

The computer comparison is awkward. A car analogy would probably be better

- you're paying on a luxury car that's still worth a lot of money and is in great demand, but you want to get out from under the car payments, because they're just too high

- you talk to the dealer, and he puts you in a "lesser" car ( money wise ), reducing your monthly payments. You're still in a decent car, but it's not a luxury car.

Like Crawful said, NY, nor any other team, don't have to give us anything to sign JJ ( if they have the cap room ). A sign and trade for JJ would involve a team who has a player/players that they want to get rid of ( whether it be for declining play or simply getting out from under his contract ). So a team most likely willing to do a sign and trade for JJ, will be a team that otherwise didn't have the cap room to get him.

[drzachary]

What can't happen is Joe strong arm us into a sign and trade and we end up with Sorry Luol Deng and his bad contract...

What if we got rid of Marvin too, and put Deng in his slot as starting SF? I wouldn't mind it.

[thecampster]

What if we got rid of Marvin too, and put Deng in his slot as starting SF? I wouldn't mind it.

And there you go.