Is this a CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL fan base?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think we all know the question to that.

For all of the people that just expect this ownership group to go out and spend money, that's the question that Hawk fans need to ask ourselves. Are we a championship level fan base?

HAWKS ATTENDANCE NUMBERS:

Home wins: 34

Home wins the last 2 seasons: 65 . . ( tied for best 2-year mark in franchise history )

Avg home attendance: 16,545 . . ( 18th in the league )

Avg home attendance 2009: 16,748 . . ( 20th in the league )

Avg home capacity %: 88.3% . . (19th in the league )

Ave home capacity % 2009: 89.4% . . ( 20th in the league )

There have been those on this board who have said . . . "win, and they will come". Well . . they we came a little LESS this year, despite us having a better product on the floor. So a harsh reality is going to have to be realized by this fan base. Especially the hard core fans in the fan base.

You CAN'T expect management to go ALL OUT to build a championship product, if the fans don't make more of a commitment to go to the games. 12 of the top 13 teams in home capacity % made the playoffs. And they all had capacity percentages above 95%. This means that the revenue was flowing on a nightly basis.

This year, our capacity % was on the level of the New Orleans Hornets, whose season was decimated with the loss of Chris Paul. Last year, our capacity % was 20th, while the Hornets capacity level was 8th ( at 98.7% ).

If fans are waiting on the Hawks to have a championship caliber team, before they really throw their support behind them, then we might be waiting forever. Without tremendous fan support at home, we really can't expect management to go to that next level to put the type of team on the floor that we all want.

That's the reality of the situation.

[Dsinner]

Look we get it, you're the only true Hawks fan in the world. Now STFU. Please.

[Guest]

I like how you ignore that the owners increased ticket prices while the city of Atlanta had increasing unemployment numbers. Factors like that don't attribute to attendance numbers so we should just ignore them.

[Dejay]

Yep, because the folks in Boston were selling out the Garden the year before KG, Ray Allen, and the gang showed. Although they tanked the season, you couldn't find an empty...oh wait...

Just like Chicago did before Jordan came on the scene...wait a minute, they didn't sell out there, either?

What about the Lakers when the Randy Pfunds of the world ran the show? Or the Nuggets before Carmelo showed up? What about the Mavericks before Cuban took over? And how are the Kings doing nowadays since they aren't winning anymore? Oh yeah...

Did their numbers stay the same after they acquired an MVP candidate via draft/trade/free agency? The numbers moved in the same manner it would here if a press conference was held at the CNN Center introducing Lebron or Wade to Atlanta.

I brought those examples up for a reason. You didn't see anyone from their front offices whine and moan about attendance numbers because they knew if they put a contender on the court, the fans would come. And to be completely honest, the Hawks haven't done that since Reagan's second term; beating on the Wizards in February is one thing but getting swept in the second round the last two seasons would prove the fans correct in their belief that this team is decent but not good enough to seriously contend for anything that matters.

We get it. You're one of the few who believe that your fandom starts when you buy your first full season ticket package and if you're not in the building six hours prior to the event, you're just a poser and not a real fan. And that's okay. We'll just continue to agree to disagree. Cool???

Edited May 17, 2010 by Dejay

[niremetal]

I like how you ignore that the owners increased ticket prices while the city of Atlanta had increasing unemployment numbers. Factors like that don't attribute to attendance numbers so we should just ignore them.

That's a fair point. But the Hawks have always had attendance lag behind its place in the standings, even in the days of Nique and Ted. And it's not a phenomenon unique to the Hawks - it's true of all Atlanta sports tea...

Aw, to hell with it. This argument is burned out. You can read elsewhere my rants about Atlanta's transplant population, poor urban planning (what good is a rail system that 90+% of the metro area population has to either drive or bus to get to?), and long-established preference for college sports.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[Buzzard]

If fans are waiting on the Hawks to have a championship caliber team, before they really throw their support behind them, then we might be waiting forever. Without tremendous fan support at home, we really can't expect management to go to that next level to put the type of team on the floor that we all want.

That's the reality of the situation.

No you have it backwards. Owners and management have to show tremendous fan support in order to attract temendous fan support. If we do not think you, as a owner, are 110% behind our team; where do you get off telling us we should be?

I am a 30+ year die hard; yet I still understand this basic marketing concept. Why you cannot; just baffles the hell out of me.

Edited May 17, 2010 by Buzzard

[coachx]

Atlanta sports fans suck for about a 1,000 different reasons. :beathorse: :beathorse:

Now leave that poor horse alone.

Next !

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Look we get it, you're the only true Hawks fan in the world. Now STFU. Please.

I don't usually go after people on here. And for the mods, I'll only just lightly do it.

But how about YOU SHUT THE F**K UP!!

Stupid mo-fos on here always thinking that this ish is about me. It's about US!! US AS A FAN BASE.

A lot of you people ( especially in ATL ), get you feelings all hurt whenever people talk about attendance and going to the game. Making every damn excuse in the world as to why we don't have great attendance.

There are 4 MILLION + PEOPLE IN METRO ATLANTA. WE ARE NOT A SMALL MARKET, WHEN IT COMES TO NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT CAN GO TO THE GAMES.

So instead of telling me to STFU . . how about you go to the damn games? Because the season ticket holders aren't going to get mad at what I say. They see what goes on, especially during the weekday games. They see how fans of other teams buy up thousands of tickets to make their voices known at Hawk games.

But some of you still don't see the reality of the situation. We all cry for a winner . .. but we don't want to support even an up and coming team.

Here . . . click on the damn link and see for your damn selves. Instead of feeling sorry about our situation as a fan base, how about looking at the reality of the situation from a monetary standpoint.

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

@ the mods . .. no matter what else they say to me, this will be my last outburst like this . . I promise you that. But this situation should not be ignored, when talking about the future of this team.

[Buzzard]

Aw, to hell with it. This argument is burned out. You can read elsewhere my rants about Atlanta's transplant population, poor urban planning (what good is a rail system that 90+% of the metro area population has to either drive or bus to get to?), and long-established preference for college sports.

This is a great point but applies to a whole lot more of Atls urban problems than just the Hawks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Atlanta sports fans suck for about a 1,000 different reasons. :beathorse: :beathorse:

Now leave that poor horse alone.

Next !

Answer me this coachx

We win 34 home games.

We were a top 5 - 10 team in the NBA all year.

Why did overall attendance to Hawk games slightly decrease?

If we as a fan base are ready for a winner, why didn't they come out to the games? Do the usual excuses hold any water? When this team suits up next year, is attendance going to increase or decrease?

People may get tired of these questions getting asked, but this is the reality of the situation here.

[Dejay]

No you have it backwards. Owners and management have to show tremendous fan support in order to attract temendous fan support. If we do not think you, as a owner, are 110% behind our team; where do you get off telling us we should be?

I am a 30+ year die hard; yet I still understand this basic marketing concept. Why you cannot; just baffles the hell out of me.

Cosign. I'll put it like this. The Hawks are trying to sell a home with a leaky roof, cracks in the foundation, and a history of having problems; but hey, they put up some shingles and some carpeting the last couple of years, so folks should be making big time offers to them, right? RIGHT????

The front office has to show the public that they are in the business of winning titles and NOT the other way around. That's why folks stopped caring about what the Braves did after they stopped caring about winning titles years ago (you think Cox would've had a chance to call his shot in NYC, Boston, or Philly?). Missouri is the 'show me' state; well, Atlanta is the 'show me' town when it comes to sports because no city is better at discerning a phony from the real McCoy.

[Guest]

That's a fair point. But the Hawks have always had attendance lag behind its place in the standings, even in the days of Nique and Ted. And it's not a phenomenon unique to the Hawks - it's true of all Atlanta sports tea...

Aw, to hell with it. This argument is burned out. You can read elsewhere my rants about Atlanta's transplant population, poor urban planning (what good is a rail system that 90+% of the metro area population has to either drive or bus to get to?), and long-established preference for college sports.

People think that attendance numbers are based solely on the city. Not true, everyone has a willingness to attend a Hawks game that depends on a lot of things. Price of tickets is one thing along with other factors like opportunity costs and the cost of getting to the game. So to say our low attendance numbers are a reflection of our city, this simply isn't true unless for some reason our city was sparsely populated. Attendance is a function of other alternatives that citizens have. So when the ASG is pricing as high as they are its no surprise that attendance is low.

IMO the ASG along with many many other owner's of sports teams have a backwards plan in trying to maximize profits. They have high prices for tickets and also high prices for concessions. Well in Atlanta the Hawks aren't that important to people, so there is a very elastic demand for tickets (unless there is a big draw like LeBron or Kobe). Why go watch a game against the Clippers when I could spend less money and have just as much fun at a club or going to a GT game or see a movie...

ASG needs to charge different prices for different games and days of the week. If LeBron comes to play, charge more for that game because you gain a lot more producer surplus. People are more willing to pay to see LeBron than the Clippers, so charge more for LeBron (still leaving you with a sell-out) and charge less for the Clippers which will raise attendance. In baseball this pricing scheme is common, I haven't figured out why it hasn't translated to the NBA yet. Maybe the NBA has a policy against it that I am unaware of?

As far as high concession prices, it is reasonable to charge high prices if you think all people who go to basketball games are the type that enjoy consuming concessions. For food and beer, I don't believe this to be true however it may be true for merchandising. The food and beer prices need to be priced competitively especially since people can easily go to the CNN Center before the game and eat instead of waiting and having a hot dog inside Philips. If they price competitively, they can earn a lot more. If I know a beer at Philips is the same as a beer at Gorin's, then I won't be slamming beers at Gorin's before a game and there will be more beer consumption at Philips. I would also be more willing to head into Philips Arena early instead of getting in right at tip-off or a little after.

Its easy to blame the citizens of Atlanta for low attendance numbers, but this analysis is lazy and I do not find it to be correct. Its not like Atlantans are not willing to go see the Hawks, its that they are not willing to see the Hawks at the current cost to them. ASG needs to make it more attractive to go see the Hawks. If that happens, then you won't see comments from our coaches and players complaining about our "fans." As is, the players and coaches complain about the fans but really they should be directing their complaints towards the ownership.

*When I say lazy I don't mean to attack niremetal. Nire mentions he has a lot of posts about this, I am unaware about this so his argument may be very complex. But the general idea of just passing blame to the fans and no one else to me is lazy because it doesn't fully inspect all the interactions of the market. Fans are demanders, so attacking fans just says we have a low demand. Well you can still sell out an arena with low demand given you change your supply. And since the ASG cannot control demand, that leads me to believe the analysis of blaming demanders is implicitly claiming the ASG is doing nothing wrong. But the ASG can control supply, so why not also blame them? Seems more plausible, especially since the answer for changing demand usually has something to do with changing the preferences of demanders and that is a ridiculous claim.

Edited May 17, 2010 by hawksfanatic

[NineOhTheRino]

No! Easily the worst PRO fans in America. I've watched so called Falcons fan cheer for the opposing team.

Edited May 17, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[LouFan]

I like how you ignore that the owners increased ticket prices while the city of Atlanta had increasing unemployment numbers. Factors like that don't attribute to attendance numbers so we should just ignore them.

The DETROIT PISTONS average more attendance then us and they are one of the worse hit cities in the country..... Just saying.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

People think that attendance numbers are based solely on the city. Not true, everyone has a willingness to attend a Hawks game that depends on a lot of things. Price of tickets is one thing along with other factors like opportunity costs and the cost of getting to the game. So to say our low attendance numbers are a reflection of our city, this simply isn't true unless for some reason our city was sparsely populated. Attendance is a function of other alternatives that citizens have. So when the ASG is pricing as high as they are its no surprise that attendance is low.

IMO the ASG along with many many other owner's of sports teams have a backwards plan in trying to maximize profits. They have high prices for tickets and also high prices for concessions. Well in Atlanta the Hawks aren't that important to people, so there is a very elastic demand for tickets (unless there is a big draw like LeBron or Kobe). Why go watch a game against the Clippers when I could spend less money and have just as much fun at a club or going to a GT game or see a movie...

ASG needs to charge different prices for different games and days of the week. If LeBron comes to play, charge more for that game because you gain a lot more producer surplus. People are more willing to pay to see LeBron than the Clippers, so charge more for LeBron (still leaving you with a sell-out) and charge less for the Clippers which will raise attendance. In baseball this pricing scheme is common, I haven't figured out why it hasn't translated to the NBA yet. Maybe the NBA has a policy against it that I am unaware of?

As far as high concession prices, it is reasonable to charge high prices if you think all people who go to basketball games are the type that enjoy consuming concessions. For food and beer, I don't believe this to be true however it may be true for merchandising. The food and beer prices need to be priced competitively especially since people can easily go to the CNN Center before the game and eat instead of waiting and having a hot dog inside Philips. If they price competitively, they can earn a lot more. If I know a beer at Philips is the same as a beer at Gorin's, then I won't be slamming beers at Gorin's before a game and there will be more beer consumption at Philips. I would also be more willing to head into Philips Arena early instead of getting in right at tip-off or a little after.

Its easy to blame the citizens of Atlanta for low attendance numbers, but this analysis is lazy and I do not find it to be correct. Its not like Atlantans are not willing to go see the Hawks, its that they are not willing to see the Hawks at the current cost to them. ASG needs to make it more attractive to go see the Hawks. If that happens, then you won't see comments from our coaches and players complaining about our "fans." As is, the players and coaches complain about the fans but really they should be directing their complaints towards the ownership.

*When I say lazy I don't mean to attack niremetal. Nire mentions he has a lot of posts about this, I am unaware about this so his argument may be very complex. But the general idea of just passing blame to the fans and no one else to me is lazy because it doesn't fully inspect all the interactions of the market. Fans are demanders, so attacking fans just says we have a low demand. Well you can still sell out an arena with low demand given you change your supply. And since the ASG cannot control demand, that leads me to believe the analysis of blaming demanders is implicitly claiming the ASG is doing nothing wrong. But the ASG can control supply, so why not also blame them? Seems more plausible, especially since the answer for changing demand usually has something to do with changing the preferences of demanders and that is a ridiculous claim.

But their tickets are low, compared to the rest of the top teams in the leauge. We're not paying an average of $90+ dollars a ticket, like they do in L.A. for the Lakers. I think our average ticket price is around $50- $52.

And we JUST raised ticket prices in the last 2 years, to be honest.

Our payroll has increased starting with the addition of Bibby. We were right around the luxury tax threshhold in 2009 - 10. The ownership at least made a modest commitment to put a winning product on the floor the past 3 years. But what did we see?

Total Attendance

2007 - 08: 667,518

2008 - 09: 686,688

2009 - 10: 678,375

I'm sorry folks. I'm a fan of this team just like you guys are. But I also deal in reality. We win 25 home games in 2008 ( 37 total ) . . and 34 games in 2010 ( 53 total ) . . but we only draw rougly 11,000 more folks total?

Dead horse or not, these are the facts.

[Guest]

The DETROIT PISTONS average more attendance then us and they are one of the worse hit cities in the country..... Just saying.

They also lowered ticket prices by a minimum of 10%. You come up with bad analysis when you don't observe the whole picture.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2009/03/pistons_to_lower_seasonticket.html

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/tickets_090310.html

[LouFan]

No! Easily the worst PRO fans in America. I've watched so called Falcons fan cheer for the opposing team.

Yeah it is crazy how many bandwagon fans there are in ATL. So many "Falcon" fans were nowhere to be found after the travesty of Vick and Mora. They even said Matt Ryan wasn't going to be anything. Then all of a sudden they are a fan when we play Arizona in the playoffs.

[niremetal]

This is a great point but applies to a whole lot more of Atls urban problems than just the Hawks.

You will get NO argument from me. Trust me, the reason I'm living in Philly instead of Atlanta ain't because the jobs or sports teams are better. It's because I like not having to sit in traffic for an hour each way to get to work.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[LouFan]

They also lowered ticket prices by a minimum of 10%. You come up with bad analysis when you don't observe the whole picture.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2009/03/pistons_to_lower_seasonticket.html

http://www.nba.com/pistons/news/tickets_090310.html

Minimum of 10% is nothing compared to the economic duress in that city. Atlanta is nowhere near that. I feel that the prices are more then fair for the fans. I know coworkers that make 7.50 an hour who can make it to games. Even if they are upper deck. It is about your loyalty and love for the team. That is the real issue.

[Guest]

But their tickets are low, compared to the rest of the top teams in the leauge. We're not paying an average of $90+ dollars a ticket, like they do in L.A. for the Lakers. I think our average ticket price is around $50- $52.

You are comparing different markets with Atlanta. LA isn't the same as Atlanta. The average NBA city is not Atlanta, Atlanta is a below average city for NBA basketball.

When you look at alternatives in Atlanta, there are a lot more entertainment alternatives. Just think about other markets with as many alternatives as Atlanta. Those are places like NY, LA, Philly, Chicago, etc. Atlanta lags behind those metropolitan areas in terms of population and also in terms of income. The NBA in Atlanta is highly elastic and total income is less than other places where NBA is also elastic. Its a situation that our owners appear to be ignoring, that or their solutions to the problem are awful.

Also think about places like San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, etc. Places that Atlanta dominates in terms of population and also in terms of income. Why isn't Atlanta exceeding them in terms of attendance? Well those places don't have as many alternatives as Atlanta and also their owners are correctly pricing their product. Here in Atlanta, our owners aren't pricing correctly. You need to look at alternatives, its not a simple "I can go to an NBA game or not" there are many alternatives.

The fault of this shouldn't lie on the fans. At least the majority of the blame shouldn't be.