Is this a CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL fan base?

[99PROBL3MS]

The Hawks were tied for the #2 home record in the NBA this season. I can't think of any reason people shouldn't be packing into Phillips (GREAT facility btw) to see this team play. I stay 2+hours away from Atlanta but still made it to 8 home games. Me and my brother made the trip to Memphis to see them play on the road in early Feb. Luckily, every game I attended was a win except for the OKC game. :cant believe:

I am not stating this too pat myself on the back. The people of Atlanta could be in those seats if they wanted too. I would just like to say I really envy those who stay within minutes of the arena and could make all the games. At times, Hawks games can seem like more of a fashion show than a sporting event, but that's another topic. It is just funny to here people use the economy as an excuse when the cost of a ticket and gas money to Phillips is less than what they spend on cigarettes. As a fan base we could be much better than we are in terms of attendance. Only one team in the entire league won more home games.

[Buzzard]

But their tickets are low, compared to the rest of the top teams in the leauge. We're not paying an average of $90+ dollars a ticket, like they do in L.A. for the Lakers. I think our average ticket price is around $50- $52.

And we JUST raised ticket prices in the last 2 years, to be honest.

Our payroll has increased starting with the addition of Bibby. We were right around the luxury tax threshhold in 2009 - 10. The ownership at least made a modest commitment to put a winning product on the floor the past 3 years. But what did we see?

Total Attendance

2007 - 08: 667,518

2008 - 09: 686,688

2009 - 10: 678,375

I'm sorry folks. I'm a fan of this team just like you guys are. But I also deal in reality. We win 25 home games in 2008 ( 37 total ) . . and 34 games in 2010 ( 53 total ) . . but we only draw rougly 11,000 more folks total?

Dead horse or not, these are the facts.

You called it yourself. Modest payroll increase, modest ticket increase, and we got a modest attendance increase. We are 22nd in payroll and 18th in attendance. Need I say anymore?

Payroll link:

http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

Attendance link:

http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance

[Guest]

Minimum of 10% is nothing compared to the economic duress in that city. Atlanta is nowhere near that. I feel that the prices are more then fair for the fans. I know coworkers that make 7.50 an hour who can make it to games. Even if they are upper deck. It is about your loyalty and love for the team. That is the real issue.

Are minimum wage workers the most likely to go to a basketball game?

The Detroit unemployment issues are serious. But most of the unemployment affects those that weren't ever likely to travel outside of the City of Detroit all the way out to Auburn Hills to watch a basketball game. Those that were likely to attend Pistons games did have decreases in wages and the Pistons realized this so they adjusted prices accordingly. If the Pistons kept their pricing scheme the way it was then Atlanta would have outpaced them in attendance.

[LouFan]

The Hawks were tied for the #2 home record in the NBA this season. I can't think of any reason people shouldn't be packing into Phillips (GREAT facility btw) to see this team play. I stay 2+hours away from Atlanta but still made it to 8 home games. Me and my brother made the trip to Memphis to see them play on the road in early Feb. Luckily, every game I attended was a win except for the OKC game. :cant believe:

I am not stating this too pat myself on the back. The people of Atlanta could be in those seats if they wanted too. I would just like to say I really envy those who stay within minutes of the arena and could make all the games. At times, Hawks games can seem like more of a fashion show than a sporting event, but that's another topic. It is just funny to here people use the economy as an excuse when the cost of a ticket and gas money to Phillips is less than what they spend on cigarettes. As a fan base we could be much better than we are in terms of attendance. Only one team in the entire league won more home games.

Cosign. I applaud this sir. Isn't this why we go to home games? To see them win?

[Popeye]

I agree with northcyde!

[niremetal]

[i'll save the megabytes and not re-post it]

I don't actually disagree with anything you're saying except this - I'm not "blaming" anyone for the poor attendance. I don't "blame" most Atlantans for being born elsewhere and not being raised on the Braves, Hawks, and Falcons. I don't "blame" the region for having a cult surrounding college (and even high school) football that is as cradle-to-the-grave as being part of Red Sox Nation. And I certainly don't "blame" the fans for the fact that our state and city governments are too stupid and shortsighted to recognize the need for a public transportation system that makes it easier and more convenient to get from the suburbs to downtown. You also touched on another point in a later post - I don't "blame" Atlantans for the fact that they are one of the smaller markets in the country to have 4 major professional sports teams (not to mention UGA and Tech).

I have made many prior posts about this, and here's one thread where I made several. Urban planning is something I studied quite a bit during college, and Atlanta is a popular case study for a reason. Suffice it to say I have thought a lot about this.

Think about this way: How would you expect attendance to be in a metro area with one of the nation's worst public transit systems but that is nonetheless spread out over 31 freaking counties, more than 2/3 of whose population was born elsewhere?

It's not a blame game. It's just a recognition that getting fans to come to games in downtown Atlanta is a tough task.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[LouFan]

Are minimum wage workers the most likely to go to a basketball game?

The Detroit unemployment issues are serious. But most of the unemployment affects those that weren't ever likely to travel outside of the City of Detroit all the way out to Auburn Hills to watch a basketball game. Those that were likely to attend Pistons games did have decreases in wages and the Pistons realized this so they adjusted prices accordingly. If the Pistons kept their pricing scheme the way it was then Atlanta would have outpaced them in attendance.

Yes, but also the pistons have not been the best of teams lately. Look at their record the past couple of years.... They got swept the first round last season and didn't even make it to the playoffs this season. That would effect ticket prices as well.

I like our discussion, but going back and forth on this is useless. Because you do not see what Northcyde, Rhino, and I are trying to point out. This fan base is sub par. It has nothing to do with money, wins (2nd best home record), playoffs(made it to the second round two years in a row), or entertainment(the highlight factory). It has to do with fan excuses and lack of loyalty and love for the team. We should be lucky to even have a team. Be grateful and support, or do not even be a fan at all.

Edited May 17, 2010 by LouFan

[coachx]

Answer me this coachx

We win 34 home games.

We were a top 5 - 10 team in the NBA all year.

Why did overall attendance to Hawk games slightly decrease?

If we as a fan base are ready for a winner, why didn't they come out to the games? Do the usual excuses hold any water? When this team suits up next year, is attendance going to increase or decrease?

People may get tired of these questions getting asked, but this is the reality of the situation here.

When you can sit at home and watch the game on Hi-def, with $0.80 beers it makes it rather dumb to spend $100 on a decent seat , $25 to park, $7.50 for a 12 oz. beer, and $7 for a hot dog. Much less if your taking kids and need 4 of those $100 seats and 4 of those $7 hot dogs, etc.

Why would people buy the $25 affordable tickets if you are seated so far away from the court that you can't even read the names on the back of jerseys.

Its a fact that Large 50'' - 60'' Hi-def teams have become more and more affordable while going to games is more expensive. The value for the dollar is just not there. That is effecting every sports team in every league. Arthur Blank is not afraid to talk about it.

Then there is the transportation, the beggars, the long commutes, the high number of transplanted Atlantans, etc.

Edited May 17, 2010 by coachx

[Guest]

It's not a blame game. It's just a recognition that getting fans to come to games in downtown Atlanta is a tough task.

Yeah I didn't mean for my post to attack you in particular. It was attacking the response of "our fans suck" or any other general argument that is based on the demand side of this equation. Just looking at this and concluding that we have bad fans is lazy and incorrect analysis.

After reading your arguments, you aren't attacking the fans. You are discussing the large amounts of costs that everyone in the city faces. The extension of your argument would be that the ASG does not attribute these costs into the willingness to pay for tickets. If the ASG accounted for these costs then we would have lower prices for tickets. They don't account for this, so their pricing scheme is off.

The idea of a "transplant" not caring about the Hawks doesn't have much bearing in your arguments, you could remove the idea of a "transplant" and your argument goes along just fine. Its only a secondary attribute. Even if this city had die-hard fans that were not transplants, they would still face the same costs that you are talking about. And since the ASG is not factoring these costs into pricing, we would still come out with higher ticket prices than we needed. So transplant or not, your conclusions still hold.

[DrReality]

Thought you were talking about HS fans . . . . that made me laugh.

[niremetal]

Yeah I didn't mean for my post to attack you in particular. It was attacking the response of "our fans suck" or any other general argument that is based on the demand side of this equation. Just looking at this and concluding that we have bad fans is lazy and incorrect analysis.

After reading your arguments, you aren't attacking the fans. You are discussing the large amounts of costs that everyone in the city faces. The extension of your argument would be that the ASG does not attribute these costs into the willingness to pay for tickets. If the ASG accounted for these costs then we would have lower prices for tickets. They don't account for this, so their pricing scheme is off.

The idea of a "transplant" not caring about the Hawks doesn't have much bearing in your arguments, you could remove the idea of a "transplant" and your argument goes along just fine. Its only a secondary attribute. Even if this city had die-hard fans that were not transplants, they would still face the same costs that you are talking about. And since the ASG is not factoring these costs into pricing, we would still come out with higher ticket prices than we needed. So transplant or not, your conclusions still hold.

I think that the transplant thing is more of a factor than you think. I have lived in Philadelphia 8 years and still couldn't care less about the Sixers, Phillies, or Eagles. And having been raised in the no-NHL era of Atlanta, I care about hockey not at all. This despite the fact that all 4 teams have contended for titles since I've lived here.

My sports loyalties remain with the 3 times that I was raised on, and I doubt that ever will change. My girlfriend, a Portland native and (predictably) a die-hard Blazers fan, is the same. She loves the Blazers and loves the NBA. She doesn't care much about football, baseball, or hockey, and she's indifferent about the Sixers.

No matter what the Sixers do, they aren't going to get me to buy season tickets. I will come when the Hawks and Blazers are in town, but that's it. Same with the Phils - they mighta won the World Series, but I'm only going if the Braves are in town.

You certainly have a point about ticket prices, but Atlanta's ticket prices are not high at all compared to those of other cities (scroll through the Forbes valuations from last year and you'll see what I mean), especially considering the quality of the team. Also, there's a point past which it actually costs you more money to have a fan in the seat (due to cleanup and maintenance costs) than it does to leave a seat empty, which is why it's rare to find NBA tickets whose face value is under $20 anywhere. Now granted, that's probably a shortsighted approach because building a fan base in the long-term requires eating money in the short term. But NBA owners are, by and large, independently wealthy businessmen. You don't get to be a billionaire by taking major short-term financial sacrifices in order to obtain an uncertain payoff in the relatively distant future.*

* - Not incidentally, that's also the reason why teams other than BOS/NYK/LAL (three teams from large cities with deeply loyal, nationwide, and well-established fan bases) spend in the luxury tax until after they make a deep playoff run and get a correspondingly huge bounce in revenues.

Edited May 17, 2010 by niremetal

[Guest]

I think that the transplant thing is more of a factor than you think. I have lived in Philadelphia 8 years and still couldn't care less about the Sixers, Phillies, or Eagles. And having been raised in the no-NHL era of Atlanta, I care about hockey not at all. This despite the fact that all 4 teams have contended for titles since I've lived here.

I don't doubt that it can be a factor. I am just pointing out that it isn't necessary for your argument. The transplant part of your argument would just increase the magnitude of effects on ticket prices.

You certainly have a point about ticket prices, but Atlanta's ticket prices are not high at all compared to those of other cities (scroll through the Forbes valuations from last year and you'll see what I mean), especially considering the quality of the team. Also, there's a point past which it actually costs you more money to have a fan in the seat (due to cleanup and maintenance costs) than it does to leave a seat empty, which is why it's rare to find NBA tickets whose face value is under $20 anywhere. Now granted, that's probably a shortsighted approach because building a fan base in the long-term requires eating money in the short term. But NBA owners are, by and large, independently wealthy businessmen. You don't get to be a billionaire by taking major short-term financial sacrifices in order to obtain an uncertain payoff in the relatively distant future.*

Every city has different qualities. So when you look at all these different ticket prices, you are looking at different markets for tickets. To draw any conclusion about Atlanta's market from looking at the averages of teams is only valid if Atlanta is a representative city of the sample. You have already said that Atlanta is a special case study for urban planning, which implies it is not representative. If you look at New Jersey and gas prices, you see that its about average. So one might conclude that New Jersey is pricing correctly. But this type of analysis lacks the insight that in New Jersey there is only full-service stations. If you were to abolish full-service stations in New Jersey then gas prices would fall. And so before where one would have thought that New Jersey is a representative, they actually aren't because of a silly law. Now I don't mean we should be looking at laws, I just mean to point out that the analysis of the prices for Atlanta ticket prices needs to be carefully examined.

Edited May 17, 2010 by hawksfanatic

[niremetal]

I don't doubt that it can be a factor. I am just pointing out that it isn't necessary for your argument. The transplant part of your argument would just increase the magnitude of effects on ticket prices.

Every city has different qualities. So when you look at all these different ticket prices, you are looking at different markets for tickets. To draw any conclusion about Atlanta's market from looking at the averages of teams is only valid if Atlanta is a representative city of the sample. You have already said that Atlanta is a special case study for urban planning, which implies it is not representative. If you look at New Jersey and gas prices, you see that its about average. So one might conclude that New Jersey is pricing correctly. But this type of analysis lacks the insight that in New Jersey there is only full-service stations. If you were to abolish full-service stations in New Jersey then gas prices would fall. And so before where one would have thought that New Jersey is a representative, they actually aren't because of a silly law. Now I don't mean we should be looking at laws, I just mean to point out that the analysis of the prices for Atlanta ticket prices needs to be carefully examined.

Fair enough. :handshake:

[Eddielives]

What the hell is a championship level fanbase?

[Guest]

Yes, but also the pistons have not been the best of teams lately. Look at their record the past couple of years.... They got swept the first round last season and didn't even make it to the playoffs this season. That would effect ticket prices as well.

I like our discussion, but going back and forth on this is useless. Because you do not see what Northcyde, Rhino, and I are trying to point out. This fan base is sub par. It has nothing to do with money, wins (2nd best home record), playoffs(made it to the second round two years in a row), or entertainment(the highlight factory). It has to do with fan excuses and lack of loyalty and love for the team. We should be lucky to even have a team. Be grateful and support, or do not even be a fan at all.

No, I understand what North, Rhino, and you are saying. Its just lazy analysis. You are pointing at the demand curve and saying "its low! we have bad fans" but are failing to observe that the ASG has the ability to charge different prices accordingly.

You want to somehow get people riled up and shift out the demand curve for almost no apparent reason. Sure, thats one way to get attendance up. But with the current ASG pricing scheme its pointless. They will see the demand increase and then change their supply of tickets. We will again get back into a situation where the ASG is not pricing correctly. Then you get riled up again about fan support and this process continues. Maybe eventually demand will shift out faster than our ASG can screw up the pricing scheme. I doubt it.

Blaming attendance on fans would be like GM blaming poor sales on consumers. Why can't consumers get excited about American made products? We should be so lucky to have American made cars! Shame on our consumers!!! Do you really expect this analysis to fly without question? No, its foolish to be blaming consumers. GM needs to recognize they aren't putting out a product that people want to buy. They need to adjust their business plan to sell more cars. Then maybe adjusting their business plan will generate loyalty to GM and get the demand curve to shift out. In the mean time, wake up and adjust your pricing scheme.

[coachx]

No, I understand what North, Rhino, and you are saying. Its just lazy analysis. You are pointing at the demand curve and saying "its low! we have bad fans" but are failing to observe that the ASG has the ability to charge different prices accordingly.

generate loyalty to GM and get the demand curve to shift out. In the mean time, wake up and adjust your pricing scheme.

I thought Hawks tickets were below the league average and some of the cheapest tickets among playoff teams. The Hawks probably have the cheapest tickets of any 50 win club in the entire NBA. Your trying to give the fans a free pass is a nice of loyalty for your hometown but give it a rest. Its not that complicated. We don't need an economics lesson on this either.

Why is the Ga Dome never full until the 2nd quarter. It might be sold out but fans don't pack the stadium for the kickoff like they do in most other NFL towns.

Why is Hawks game empty until the 2nd quarter ? Those are lazy fans.....not lazy analysis.

Is that b/c of pricing too ? If the prices were cheaper the fans would actually start getting to games on time ?

Edited May 17, 2010 by coachx

[Guest]

Why is the Ga Dome never full until the 2nd quarter. It might be sold out but fans don't pack the stadium for the kickoff like they do in most other NFL towns.

If beer is priced competitively inside the GA Dome or Philips then I guarantee you we would see earlier attendance.

Why is Hawks game empty until the 2nd quarter ? Those are lazy fans.....not lazy analysis.

Is that b/c of pricing too ? If the prices were cheaper the fans would actually start getting to games on time ?

I am not saying that all ticket prices need to be priced lower. I gave no analysis on how I think pricing should actually be. But the Hawks control the prices of tickets for all areas of the Arena. Their pricing of those seats are out of whack. Do people really want to pay $100 to sit behind the basket when they could be the same distance from the court but not under the basket for the same price? No, clearly thats one reason why the tickets that the Hawks NEVER sell out are right behind the basket, your view is obstructed so price it lower. Can you get the same amount of people to sign up for luxury suites even if you raise prices? Yes? Then increase those prices.

I don't mention specific solutions to every seat in the house at Philips because that would take way too long and it isn't interesting. But it is clear that the pricing scheme is messed up for the Hawks. I also don't focus on the Hawks in relation to the average because Atlanta isn't a representative city. I have made notes of stupid business decisions like increasing prices when unemployment goes up. How can you not anticipate this will have a negative effect on the team holding all else equal.

When you don't look at the whole picture you typify lazy analysis. Its easy to say "we have bad fans" but then you aren't looking at the whole picture. Its such an unbelievably lazy analysis that I will not respond to any more posts that don't have actual critical thinking about our attendance.

[AHF]

One thing that is not mentioned but I think is relevant to bring up with this particular ownership group is the way they have crapped over all their hockey customers the last few years. I would assume there is some real overlap between the hockey fans and basketball fans and there is less reason to be excited over the Hawks' future if you have been subjected to the terrible investment in and management of the sister-franchise. No one can look at this ownership group with the way they have been in court with one another and with the way they have ran the Thrashers side of the business and feel the kind of comfort that a Portland or Dallas fan feels in how the front office will be run. Just one more factor to add to the list.

[drzachary]

The Hawks were tied for the #2 home record in the NBA this season. I can't think of any reason people shouldn't be packing into Phillips (GREAT facility btw) to see this team play. I stay 2+hours away from Atlanta but still made it to 8 home games. Me and my brother made the trip to Memphis to see them play on the road in early Feb. Luckily, every game I attended was a win except for the OKC game. :cant believe:

So, you don't have a job? How do you live 2+ hours away and still make the 7pm games?

[drzachary]

Why is Hawks game empty until the 2nd quarter ? Those are lazy fans.....not lazy analysis.

Is that b/c of pricing too ? If the prices were cheaper the fans would actually start getting to games on time ?

It's because of traffic, pathetic public transit because of racist yokels outside of the city, and because beer is 1/4 the price outside.

But hey, you want me to go in earlier, feel free to pay me and all the other fans for time lost working and the $28 4oz Coors Lights we have to buy in the arena.