What does Joe offer that can't be replaced?

[ATL_BALLER]

Especially at the price it will take to keep him? Finding a two guard that can go for 20 a game isn't the hardest thing in the world to find - heck, we have a guy on our bench who can get that done, and another who may eventually. We can replace the depth by bringing back Chillz. And leadership? I like the strong, silent type as much as anyone, but doesn't this team, with its lapses and sulking, need a little a passion and fire?

Having said that, I like Joe and would be happy to have him back. Just seems like we know our ceiling with this current bunch, and avoiding a potentially crippling contract, for someone who's more Robin than Batman, doesn't seem like a terrible scenario.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll head right back to lotto land or worse, middle-of-the-road oblivion.

[JTB]

Especially at the price it will take to keep him? Finding a two guard that can go for 20 a game isn't the hardest thing in the world to find - heck, we have a guy on our bench who can get that done, and another who may eventually. We can replace the depth by bringing back Chillz. And leadership? I like the strong, silent type as much as anyone, but doesn't this team, with its lapses and sulking, need a little a passion and fire?

Having said that, I like Joe and would be happy to have him back. Just seems like we know our ceiling with this current bunch, and avoiding a potentially crippling contract, for someone who's more Robin than Batman, doesn't seem like a terrible scenario.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll head right back to lotto land or worse, middle-of-the-road oblivion.

good post man!........i asked the same question about what does JJ offer that cant be replaced to myself and here are some things that cant be replaced if JJ leaves:

-the fact that JJ weighs 240 and plays SG gives the hawks an advantage! JJ is the biggest SG in the NBA as far as weight and his height is average at his position at 6'7 so he should be able to back any SG down to the paint and score when one on one...............thats a huge advantage!

-JJ demands the double team which crawford and the crawford probably wont get and that will play in our advantage as well

-My last one is JJ has shown good solid defense even on switches that woody ran when he had to face good solid faster and quicker PG's and thats a plus that he can defend man on man at the perimeter and is willing and has shown he can defend guys quicker than him.............this is also huge because both crawfords who could take over the scoring load for JJ if he leaves are not known to be solid defensively or average at that

So though the crawfords could probably take over the scoring if JJ were to leave there are many other probs we will end up having!

[ATL_BALLER]

Yes, but for the max?

[sturt]

I think the question is valid, but I also think in order to answer it intelligently, one has to take into account that the Joe has been in Woody's system all of this time. I genuinely believe that somewhat limited him offensively from being a more complete player, and simultaneously, believe that Woody's indiscriminate demands on Joe's minutes during the season wore him down from what he otherwise might have achieved. Remember that Joe actually came here under the thinking that we very possibly would play him at point guard for a good part of the time... though that didn't go well, the point is, that's the level of playmaking skill that he was considered to have previously.

So, actually, I'm quite bullish on Joe's future, given the different system, if he sticks with us.

[Anansi]

The only thing we will miss if Joe leaves is his defense.

[JJFAN4LF]

What does Joe offer that can't be replaced? Everything. If we don't sign him, the best player we can get is John Salmons with the MLE....and I'm not sure that would be enough to get him. Without signing Joe, we're taking a step backwards. Plain and simple. I want him signed.

I also don't agree that we know what the ceiling is with the players we currently have right now. Woody was a terrible coach and I don't think he utilized the talent we had in this team. I think Bibby and Jamal were the only two players on the team that worked with Woody's coaching. I believe that Joe would be more effective if we actually ran an offense.

Edited June 26, 2010 by TeamDime10

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Players that have averaged 21 points - 4 rebs - 4 assists in the past 5 seasons, and the number of times they've done it:

Wade ( 5 )

Lebron ( 5 )

Kobe ( 5 )

JJ ( 4 )

T-Mac ( 3 )

Carter ( 3 )

Roy ( 2 )

Pierce ( 2 )

Paul ( 2 )

Arenas ( 2 )

Garnett ( 2 )

Ellis ( 1 )

Baron Davis ( 1 )

Ray Allen ( 1 )

21 points - 4 rebs - 4 assists - shoot 45%+

Wade ( 5 )

Kobe ( 5 )

Lebron ( 5 )

JJ ( 2 )

Paul ( 2 )

Roy ( 2 )

Garnett ( 2 )

Carter ( 2 )

Pierce ( 1 )

Edited June 26, 2010 by northcyde

[Gray Mule]

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Put all your eggs in one basket: JJ Then, let injury take him out of the picture. Yeah, I know. He played all

the time and was never (Or hardly ever) out with injuries. Still, he's human. He's not a machine. If something

tears up it may not be easily fixed.

Pay JJ all that money so that there is none left to pay any of the other players. JJ makes millions. All the other

Hawks play for near minimum NBA wages pretty soon because there is no money to pay any one else.

Yeah. I know. It's only money. It grows on trees. If the owners don't have all that money to spend, sell the team

to someone who has deep pockets that wants to get rid of it. Simple, isn't it. Especially, while we're spending

someone else's money. They have plenty.

What does JJ have that Hawks can't replace? $$$$$

GO DREAM

10-4 FIRST PLACE!!

[DJlaysitup]

Especially at the price it will take to keep him? ...

I've been thinking similarly ATL_B. Personally I think a player (that is good enough) can lead a championship contending team from any position on the court. We have all seen teams over the years with "best players" at PG, SG, SF, PF, and Center. The thing is with JJ at SG is that a player who dominates from that position has to be more of a multi-skilled player. Dominating from the SG position (and even the SF) usually requires the ability to knock down shots from outside while also being a major threat to drive the ball to the hoop with serious athleticism.

This is why the "ISO JJ" didn't work IMO. He simply lacks the explosiveness to rush the rim. That ability won't improve with age. It all goes back to BK. BK made a mistake in all the stuff he gave away to get JJ as our "star". Don't get me wrong - JJ has been WAY more efficient as our "star" than I expected him to be.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What does Joe offer that can't be replaced? Everything. If we don't sign him, the best player we can get is John Salmons with the MLE....and I'm not sure that would be enough to get him. Without signing Joe, we're taking a step backwards. Plain and simple. I want him signed.

I also don't agree that we know what the ceiling is with the players we currently have right now. Woody was a terrible coach and I don't think he utilized the talent we had in this team. I think Bibby and Jamal were the only two players on the team that worked with Woody's coaching. I believe that Joe would be more effective if we actually ran an offense.

We don't know what the ceiling of this team is, because the Hawks never regressed under Woody.

[ATL_BALLER]

We don't know what the ceiling of this team is, because the Hawks never regressed under Woody.

If you count the regular season, yes. But we went from a bad 2nd round exit to a horrific one in the span of one season, and that was with a better and healthier roster. Yes, I know the match up was bad, but tell me, NC: do you really think this team can challenge for the championship with JJ as our best player? And to you, is he worth the 100 - 119 million it's going to keep him? That's Kobe money-

Edited June 26, 2010 by ATL_BALLER

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I've been thinking similarly ATL_B. Personally I think a player (that is good enough) can lead a championship contending team from any position on the court. We have all seen teams over the years with "best players" at PG, SG, SF, PF, and Center. The thing is with JJ at SG is that a player who dominates from that position has to be more of a multi-skilled player. Dominating from the SG position (and even the SF) usually requires the ability to knock down shots from outside while also being a major threat to drive the ball to the hoop with serious athleticism.

This is why the "ISO JJ" didn't work IMO. He simply lacks the explosiveness to rush the rim. That ability won't improve with age. It all goes back to BK. BK made a mistake in all the stuff he gave away to get JJ as our "star". Don't get me wrong - JJ has been WAY more efficient as our "star" than I expected him to be.

LOL @ it didn't work. We won 53 games, he made 3rd team All-NBA, and he had his best season as a Hawk. And for the first 4 games of the playoffs, this guy was looking like a superstar. But it all went downhill as the playoffs went on. The Hawks haven't regressed since we acquired the guy. And this is without a legit low post scoring threat, nor a PG to run the show.

You're right in that his weakness as a player is that he doesn't draw enough fouls going to the hole. He could take a page from Crawford as well, in drawing fouls on his jumpshot.

People like to place sole blame on a star player, even though they can see what the team lacks overall. Lebron desperately needs a guy who can score down on the blocks to keep the defense honest. And not an over the hill Shaq either. Which is why the Cavs will rue the day that they didn't get Amare. He was that #2 scorer that could score in the paint, that the team needed.

Wade won a title with Shaq still a top 3 center in the league. He hasn't come close since, because the Heat have no low post scorers, nor a PG to take the playmaking pressure off of Wade.

Kobe wasn't going anywhere with Andrew Bynum as the low post scoring option. But as soon as we he got Gasol, that team has been lights out the past 3 years.

You need at least 2 All-Star players ( legit All-Stars ) plus a 3rd guy playig at a high level, plus great team defense, in order to win a championship. Hawk fans know this. If we lose an All-Star player of JJ's caliber, we're going to have to hope to draft an All-Star above JJ's caliber, seeing that NO SUPERSTAR PLAYERS want to come here.

The best player we've signed in free agency in the past 5 years . . .was Speedy Claxton. Everybody else we had to trade for, or were scrub players that no one wanted. And even the good players we traded for, their team didn't want them anymore ( Bibby, Crawford ).

BK didn't make a mistake. That was a borderline genius move by BK to get JJ for what he did. No good free agents wanted to come to Atlanta. He gave JJ an offer he couldn't refuse, and it paid off.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If you count the regular season, yes. But we went from a bad 2nd round exit to a horrific one in the span of one season, and that was with a better and healthier roster. Yes, I know the match up was bad, but tell me, NC: do you really think this team can challenge for the championship with JJ as our best player? And to you, is he worth the 100 - 119 million it's going to keep him? That's Kobe money-

The matchup was horrific. We all knew this going into that series. We had to play stellar defense in order to beat Orlando, and we didn't come close to doing that. The offense was horrible as well. That speaks to a bigger problem than just one player, or a coach. The team just didn't match up with Orlando at all. They're the only team in the NBA that did that to us on a consistent basis the past 2 years. So it had to be because of the matchup issues that they present.

As for what JJ is worth, he's definitely worth 100 over 6 years.

Like I said, the best free agent we've signed in the past 5 years, was Speedy Claxton. People act like all of these free agents would beat down our door if we had the cap space.

Honestly ATL_Baller . . . what we have to do is to try to keep JJ around, and either trade one of the young kids in the future, or trade JJ in the future for a disgruntled star player somewhere else, and see if he can get it done for us.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Honestly ATL_Baller . . . what we have to do is to try to keep JJ around, and either trade one of the young kids in the future, or trade JJ in the future for a disgruntled star player somewhere else, and see if he can get it done for us.

And if we trade JJ, Horford or Smoove better be legit All-Star players who can also be go-to guys on offense.

[thescout]

The matchup was horrific. We all knew this going into that series. We had to play stellar defense in order to beat Orlando, and we didn't come close to doing that. The offense was horrible as well. That speaks to a bigger problem than just one player, or a coach. The team just didn't match up with Orlando at all. They're the only team in the NBA that did that to us on a consistent basis the past 2 years. So it had to be because of the matchup issues that they present.

As for what JJ is worth, he's definitely worth 100 over 6 years.

Like I said, the best free agent we've signed in the past 5 years, was Speedy Claxton. People act like all of these free agents would beat down our door if we had the cap space.

Honestly ATL_Baller . . . what we have to do is to try to keep JJ around, and either trade one of the young kids in the future, or trade JJ in the future for a disgruntled star player somewhere else, and see if he can get it done for us.

I think that's the million dollar question in Drew's system how good are the players going to be? The Hawks historically have never been a franchise that moved the ball which is why you get one on one play and isolations way to much. If we do resign JJ he can't be the main focus on offense like it was. Live by the outside shot die by it. Smoove and Horford have to pick up their game but the other issue we really do need another small forward you can depend on. Marvin just doesn't get it done and J Crawford did play alot but I'd rather have another small forward instead of JJ moving to that position when Crawford comes in.

We really do have more issues on the roster than just JJ but he is the first big question on the roster. Who do you have to replace him with? I wonder what Salmons will get vs JJ? The rookie Jordan Crawford and Jamal Crawford won't replace JJ on things like defense. Guess will find out soon and get some questions answered.

[thescout]

One guy I would love to have is Biedrins from Golden State.I know he isn't a free agent but he can rebound,block shots and then you let the other players score.We have no interior defense vs better teams.

[Chaze]

good post man!........i asked the same question about what does JJ offer that cant be replaced to myself and here are some things that cant be replaced if JJ leaves:

-the fact that JJ weighs 240 and plays SG gives the hawks an advantage! JJ is the biggest SG in the NBA as far as weight and his height is average at his position at 6'7 so he should be able to back any SG down to the paint and score when one on one...............thats a huge advantage!

-JJ demands the double team which crawford and the crawford probably wont get and that will play in our advantage as well

-My last one is JJ has shown good solid defense even on switches that woody ran when he had to face good solid faster and quicker PG's and thats a plus that he can defend man on man at the perimeter and is willing and has shown he can defend guys quicker than him.............this is also huge because both crawfords who could take over the scoring load for JJ if he leaves are not known to be solid defensively or average at that

So though the crawfords could probably take over the scoring if JJ were to leave there are many other probs we will end up having!

AGREED

[Final_quest]

We can't replace JJ, and I don't agree with this nonsense that only Kobe, Wade, and Lebron are worth the max. All max means is that we would pay these guys more but we are not allowed to. You notice that Lebron and Kobe both have a lot of well compensated team mates. One guy getting the max doesn't mean you can't pay the other players. Notice there are currently two teams looking at possibly getting 3 max players. If one team can afford 3 contracts like that surely we can afford one of them.

My reason for wanting to trade JJ is that our ownership does not seem like they are willing to spend what it takes to surround him with other players to get us to contender level. Letting JJ go is punting and trying to regroup, but with our current situation I'm not sure if we can risk so much on JJ. If he was 27 I would say definitely resign him for the max. He is just too old for us, but not other teams.

[Diesel]

Especially at the price it will take to keep him? Finding a two guard that can go for 20 a game isn't the hardest thing in the world to find - heck, we have a guy on our bench who can get that done, and another who may eventually. We can replace the depth by bringing back Chillz. And leadership? I like the strong, silent type as much as anyone, but doesn't this team, with its lapses and sulking, need a little a passion and fire?

Having said that, I like Joe and would be happy to have him back. Just seems like we know our ceiling with this current bunch, and avoiding a potentially crippling contract, for someone who's more Robin than Batman, doesn't seem like a terrible scenario.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll head right back to lotto land or worse, middle-of-the-road oblivion.

Allstar status.

Losing Joe for nothing is problemsome. If we sign him.. regardless of the amount, we have a chance to trade him for pieces. Sund knows this. So, you through in 119 Million for Joe. By Feb, Joe could be playing somewhere else and we have something for 20 Million and probably 13 Million of that in ending contracts.

However, we lose Joe for nothing, You get Nothing!! Good day Sir!!

[Diesel]

I think the question is valid, but I also think in order to answer it intelligently, one has to take into account that the Joe has been in Woody's system all of this time. I genuinely believe that somewhat limited him offensively from being a more complete player, and simultaneously, believe that Woody's indiscriminate demands on Joe's minutes during the season wore him down from what he otherwise might have achieved. Remember that Joe actually came here under the thinking that we very possibly would play him at point guard for a good part of the time... though that didn't go well, the point is, that's the level of playmaking skill that he was considered to have previously.

So, actually, I'm quite bullish on Joe's future, given the different system, if he sticks with us.

One thing we never mention about Joe is that even in Woody's flawed offense, Joe led the team in assists for the last 5 years.