The problem with Marvin

[DJlaysitup]

The problem with Marvin (now that Josh Smith has shown he can be our starting #3)...is that he isn't worth his current contract around the league. That's not Marvin's fault anymore than it was his fault that he got picked in front of CP3 or Deron. But it's reality.

So - can we afford to keep Marvin as a backup three at his cost? I think we have to. Marvin can play a 3-4 role as a backup and give us some D. We have to trade Craw for a big.

As far as the SERIOUS problem at backup PG - our ownership/management are simply going to have to pull a rabbit out of a hat and get an Anthony Johnson type PG for what little they can offer...:kickcan:

[DrReality]

Nice to hear a logical case made related to MW. (unlike D)

[Wurider05]

You lost me after you said Smoove can be our starting SF. Do you watch any of the games? SMoove can not play the SF spot. What's our record this season with him as the starting SF yeah that's right 0-2. His men are blowing right by him.

[DJlaysitup]

You lost me after you said Smoove can be our starting SF. Do you watch any of the games? SMoove can not play the SF spot. What's our record this season with him as the starting SF yeah that's right 0-2. His men are blowing right by him.

Oh I dunno Wur - what do you expect? Maybe like 13 points, 13 rebounds, a block, 6 assists and 3 turnovers? Add to that many shots changed just because he was on the court on defense.

0-2 is because it's the first two good teams we've played. Sure Smoove was 6-15 from the field against ORL...but he was missing inside (once twice on the same possession)...alot of that has to do with D12.

Here is the thing IMO. You can say all you want about whether we need Marvin or Smoove at the small forward position. Key is - Al Horford is much more of a threat at PF...so we would be ignorant not to put him there (even Cheryl Miller knows that). So if Smoove can shoot as good as Marvin and also be a much higher impact player at the position you only have two choices. Put Smoove at SF or put Smoove at Center.:snowballfight:

Edited November 10, 2010 by DJlaysitup

[Joker]

LOL, Josh proved to you he can play SF. I guess Bibby and Crawford proved their lockdown defenders, Joe proved he can play above of rim, and Zaza is the new Shaq.

[WakaFlocka]

This is all dreaming. Whenever Marvin comes back there is zero doubt that he'll be our starting SF, thus Josh will be at PF and Al at C. Josh can't guard quick 3s on the perimeter and that is a huge weakness for us as a team, perimeter D. You really think Drew would move Josh there so teams could exploit that even easier?

[Wurider05]

This is all dreaming. Whenever Marvin comes back there is zero doubt that he'll be our starting SF, thus Josh will be at PF and Al at C. Josh can't guard quick 3s on the perimeter and that is a huge weakness for us as a team, perimeter D. You really think Drew would move Josh there so teams could exploit that even easier?

Exactly. First play of the Phoenix game, Grant Hill went right at Josh Smith. First play of the game.

[foeteen14]

i have mixed feeling about josh at the 3 spot. i have no doubt that he can play the position, it's just he likes to float on defense to get blocks and alter shots. when he does this at the 3 spot, it usually leaves a good 3 point shooter open. so far this hasn't really hurt us, but i'm admitting that it could. the team has played pretty well with josh at SF, and horford has played exceptionally well at PF. we've lost the past 2 games because at the end of these games, the opponent identified our weakness, went after it, and exploited it. that's what good teams do. we need marvin for his length and decent defense, we don't need both bibby and crawford. one of them has to go. and somebody who can play some defense has to come in.

[Jody23]

I have to agree with D.J. on this. Even L.D. said Josh's defensive impact is just as good at the 3 as it is at the 4. Also, no one wants to mention the way he locked down Tayshaun Prince in the Detroit victory or how he held Rashard Lewis to 4 pts in the Orlando game. The truth is, offensive players have not been blowing right past him. He's been holding his own defensively at that spot. Will he get beat at times off the dribble? Sure, but Marvin gets beat a fair share of times as well. Even the best wing defenders in the league get beat off the dribble at times. That's the way it is. The Hawks real weakness defensively on the perimeter is and has been in the backcourt.

For the first time in a while, the Hawks played a more conventionally sized line-up against the Magic for extended minutes. The result? They were in the game and had a chance to win rather than getting blown out with the small lineup. They actually out rebounded the Magic. When is the last time that happened?

I'm not going to predict it will, but if the team continues to play well with Josh and Al at the 3 and 4, then that's what L.D. should stick with, even when Marvin comes back. Having Marvin as a sixth man would most likely make the Hawks bench stronger anyway. I know many won't like the idea, but what's best for the team should prevail over personal preference.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Jody23

[Jody23]

Also, this team is filled with players who can play multiple positions and do it well. I think the debate on Josh starting at the 3 should be less about who's a true 3 and who's not and all about who makes the most positive impact on the floor at that position and that question should be answered honestly.

[Sothron]

I thought these last two games would show everyone that Josh can't play the three for extended minutes. He simply gets killed on the perimeter trying to defend faster players. The number one reason we've lost the last two games is due to our lack of any small forwards healthy on the roster.

[jhay610]

Josh needs to around the basket on both ends of the floor, in my opinion. You are playing away from his strengths when you ask him to space the floor on offense or guard perimeter players on defense.

Where Josh is a game-changer is on the defensive end as a help-side shot-blocker. Put him on small forwards and you are asking to get punished with open threes, unless you don't want him to help at the rim on drives, which means teams can run a layup drill on us. He is a below average perimeter defender, but one of the league's best at blocking and changing shots and at playing the passing lanes.

Why not play to his strengths? Does Zaza/Collins at the five really make us better (and consequently Horford at the 4), considering what we are giving up by asking Josh to guard 3s?

Not even a close call, in my mind.

[Gray Mule]

:thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Posters say - - "We don't need---" or "He can't play--."

The truth is, the Hawks need everyone - Everyone healthy and playing up to their potential.

Then, the Hawks are a dangerous team.

We all tend to get carried away with individual preformance and have a tendency to forget

that basketball is a team sport and to be really successful, all the parts that make up the

team must function properly.

Yes, but - - - ! No. No buts about it. That's just the way it works. That's why they are called

a basketball team. Team being the key work.

:conversation:

Edited November 10, 2010 by Gray Mule

[IHeartAtlanta]

You lost me after you said Smoove can be our starting SF. Do you watch any of the games? SMoove can not play the SF spot. What's our record this season with him as the starting SF yeah that's right 0-2. His men are blowing right by him.

Actually were 1-2 he started at the 3 against Minnesota

[exodus]

Smith has blocked 2 shots total in the last two games. Going into the Suns game he was averaging 4 blocks a game.

[JackB1]

Here's my take:

When Al moves to PF, he will avg at least +5 pts more than when playing C.

As long as Smith can equal Marvin's production at the 3, they we gain 5 pts per game.

You know Smith will do better at the 3 than Marvin. You can't judge by these past 2

games against 2 of the better teams in the league. Plus, Smoove insists on playing like

a 3 anyway (dribbling and shooting 3's) so why not put him there for real?

[AHF]

Here's my take:

When Al moves to PF, he will avg at least +5 pts more than when playing C.

As long as Smith can equal Marvin's production at the 3, they we gain 5 pts per game.

You realize that is only true if the new center equals Josh Smith's production at the PF position, right?

Marvin's Production at SF (MSF) + Josh's at PF (JPF) + Al's at C (AC)

Your statement:

If Josh's production at SF (JSF) = MSF then Al's at PF (APF) = AC + 5

MSF + AC + 5 PPG + New Center = MSF + JPF + ACF + 5 ppg -- only if JPF = NC

Edited November 10, 2010 by AHF

[Diesel]

I have to agree with D.J. on this. Even L.D. said Josh's defensive impact is just as good at the 3 as it is at the 4. Also, no one wants to mention the way he locked down Tayshaun Prince in the Detroit victory or how he held Rashard Lewis to 4 pts in the Orlando game. The truth is, offensive players have not been blowing right past him. He's been holding his own defensively at that spot. Will he get beat at times off the dribble? Sure, but Marvin gets beat a fair share of times as well. Even the best wing defenders in the league get beat off the dribble at times. That's the way it is. The Hawks real weakness defensively on the perimeter is and has been in the backcourt.

For the first time in a while, the Hawks played a more conventionally sized line-up against the Magic for extended minutes. The result? They were in the game and had a chance to win rather than getting blown out with the small lineup. They actually out rebounded the Magic. When is the last time that happened?

I'm not going to predict it will, but if the team continues to play well with Josh and Al at the 3 and 4, then that's what L.D. should stick with, even when Marvin comes back. Having Marvin as a sixth man would most likely make the Hawks bench stronger anyway. I know many won't like the idea, but what's best for the team should prevail over personal preference.

Ahmen.

People want to talk this and that about Marvin's defense, but Marvin gets Scorched on defense. I guess if you have nothing but rain, you talk about how pretty the rain is. When we played Philly, AI put up his season High with Marvin in tow. Not to mention Al Thornton's season high and Rudy Gay... And we have the nerve to insist that Marvin is a defensive stopper, a great perimeter defender???

I'll say it again:

Marvin for Corey Brewer.

Brewer is a good perimeter defender.

I thought these last two games would show everyone that Josh can't play the three for extended minutes. He simply gets killed on the perimeter trying to defend faster players. The number one reason we've lost the last two games is due to our lack of any small forwards healthy on the roster.

Nah...

The reason we lost these last two games is because we can't defend the high post pick and roll. That has less to do with personnel and more to do with System.

[exodus]

Ahmen.

People want to talk this and that about Marvin's defense, but Marvin gets Scorched on defense. I guess if you have nothing but rain, you talk about how pretty the rain is. When we played Philly, AI put up his season High with Marvin in tow. Not to mention Al Thornton's season high and Rudy Gay... And we have the nerve to insist that Marvin is a defensive stopper, a great perimeter defender???

I'll say it again:

Marvin for Corey Brewer.

Brewer is a good perimeter defender.

Nah...

The reason we lost these last two games is because we can't defend the high post pick and roll. That has less to do with personnel and more to do with System.

-First of all Iggy plays the 2, not the 3. Not to mention that 12 of Iggy's points were scored when Marvin was on the bench.

-Thornton played 42 minutes, Marvin 21. Was Marvin supposed to guard him from the sidelines?

-Gay is averaging 26 ppg shooting 52% on the season. He was 7-16 from the field against us.

Edited November 10, 2010 by exodus

[tremor]

-First of all Iggy plays the 2, not the 3. Not to mention that 12 of Iggy's points were scored when Marvin was on the bench.

-Thornton played 42 minutes, Marvin 21. Was Marvin supposed to guard him from the sidelines?

-Gay is averaging 26 ppg shooting 52% on the season. He was 7-16 from the field against us.

Good points except for Wizards game. Thornton was torching Marvin early in the game and he was replaced with Crawford and JJ was moved to 3.

I think we should adjust line-ups according to match ups. Collins will start against Orlando, maybe Houston if Yao plays, Nets, Lakers with Bynum. He doesn't have anything else to offter but decent D against 7footers, in other cases he's pretty much useless.