Kinda what I figured

[Wretch]

I figured this team would stumble in the first part of the season. New coach. New offense. I thought it would take until mid-late December for them to get it together. I also felt that by January/February time frame, we'd be much improved. I still believe that. I also still believe we can be a much better playoff team.

CAN be...

The biggest question I had coming into the season was whether or not Larry Drew could actually coach. Motion offense. Limited switching. Etc... That's all good, because everybody in the world knew what our problem was... But what about when the CACA hits the FAN!? Then what? Can he inspire these guys? Can he get egos under control? Can he keep them focused? Coaching is more than X's and O's and winning is more than strategy. In the NBA, winning is as much physical talent as it is mental fortitude. Which is also why I predicted the Heat would not win the title this year or next, but that is another story.

So what to do?

Well, first things first. Stop thinking that veteran journeyman is going to come in here and turn it around. There is no magical center (not named Dwight Howard) and there is no magical point guard (not named Chris Paul) that is going to magically transform us into a contender. I'm not as basketball savvy as some of you cats, so I'm going into PERs, +/-'s, and astrology. I try to keep things at a very basic level, because at it's heart...that's the truth of sport - men trying to conquer other men. lol

As a computer tech, I look at this thing as a problem...in which case, I have to make a reference to a known good first. In other words, what is a working model that I can reference to compare to...so I can see what's working. Orlando, Boston, Los Angeles, San Antonio, Utah, New Orleans, OKC...? What is so much different about these teams in the playoffs and during the regular season?

I'll tell you one thing: attitude. The Lakers don't step on the court looking to prove anything to anyone. They come to kick someone's *ss. Kobe comes to put that damn ball in the basket and take it away from someone on the other end - for 48 minutes. Same thing with Boston. They come to put their hands on you, frustrate you, and execute their offense. It doesn't matter if you're the Nets, the Clippers, the Spurs, or the Magic. Boston comes out to kick your *ss. These teams are chasing titles while we are still chasing respect. After all this time, we're still looking for people to say, "Hey...the Hawks are for real!" To hell with that.

Another part of their attitude is effort and hustle. These teams don't go out and give a half-*ss effort. They want it - every play. They want it and they get after it. We just...don't do that. NEVER. HAVE. We play like we want people to know we're serious. We play like "Hey! We can win this game against the Knicks." Other teams, they just basically...out work us. In the simplest terms...they come to WIN and we do not. That attitude has to change.

As far as players go...

Let's start with Marvin. Guy is a waste of space. Sorry. I have remained impartial long enough - you have too. Marvin is talented. He was a high draft pick. He may still have potential. We can't keep waiting on him. We need to wait until he gets hot and ship him as soon as possible to sweeten a deal. We need those 3's and hooks in the lane and those FT's. We need his rebounding and energy. But Marvin is just sitting in the passenger's seat waiting for someone to notice him. He doesn't have the heart of a champion. He has no fire.

Joe Johnson. Joe does not suck, but Joe is sucking. I can't sit here and debate what kind of player Joe Johnson is. Those with any sort of basketball intelligence understand what he is. You do or die with him. IDEALLY...you pair him with a guy like Kobe/LeBron/Durant and you create a problem on offense. As our "Star", Joe is simply not going to cut it. Trading him is not the answer. You need to build around/with him. I really have no opinion on JJ except, I'm going to wait on him to shake off the slump and I hope we can get a guy that can mesh with him and take us to another level.

Al Horford/Josh Smith - THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

You've lost your mind Wretch.

WTF are you talking about, these guys are the ONLY guys with heart on the team.

They're playing great right now.

Josh gives us [yadda/yadda/yadda]

Al gives us [whoopteedamndooo].

I love them both. And technically, neither is a "problem." The problem is both of them together...

Winning teams have 2 guys that can GET. IT. DONE. You can talk about coaching, defense, motion offense, cheerleaders, fans...bigs, smalls, Biggie Smalls. The bottom line is that the HISTORY of this game revolves around special players: Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Bird, Duncan...etc. et. al. They are called "Stars" and this is a game driven by them. Stars don't get drafted because "they're such PROFESSIONALS." They don't get drafted because, "OMG...he can rebound and block shots." They get drafted HIGH because someone thinks that they can put the damn ball in the basket. Sorry, but it's the bottom line man...

Right now? We have 1.5 guys that can "put the ball in the basket." One is named Joe Johnson, the .5 is named Jamal Crawford. Al and Josh give us many things, but neither can "put the ball in the basket." Horf is getting better, but he isn't a reliable 1st or 2nd option. I hope he can be. Maybe he can...but the problem is, these two [Horf & Smoove] comprise a chunk of our starting lineup and they do not give us the offensive potency we need to kick teams' teeth in. With Bibby and Marvin giving us [ho hum] baskets here and there, it leaves JJ as the only guy that can really score for us (or Crawford off the bench). It ain't gonna cut it.

1st round of the playoffs? Sure.

2nd round? Eh...we can be competitive.

Beyond that... (Michael-Jackson-Thriller-laugh)

So what to do?

LOL, we have to trade one and ship him with Marvin's *ss. Sorry. It's the truth. It'd be great to move Marvin, keep these guys and get an All-Star SF/PG/Center in return...that ain't gonna happen. It is HIGH TIME for a Hawks blockbuster and it is the ONLY thing that is going to get this team over the hump. We will have to bring in another player that can PUT the ball IN the basket.

But Wretch...! Defense!

But Wretch...! PG play!

But Wretch...! Bigs! Rebounding! Coaching! Fans! Kitchen Sink!

Yeah. Well, you can't win if you can't score. BUT WRETCH...! We score lots of points! Yes, but we have a problem scoring when it counts. The kind of player we need does that...often. It's why they lead their teams to championships and franchises won't let go of them. We have a problem scoring when good teams are punching us in the face. Then we lay down, put our @sses in the air and say, "Whoop us!" We need to be able to build leads, keep leads, and demoralize teams.

WE NEED DEFENSE, YES. As much as I talk about offense and AllStar players. I'm first and foremost a fan of good defense. I also know though that part of a good defense is deflating a team. It takes a huge amount of effort to climb back into a game. It takes a chunk out of a team when you hit those late game "daggers." LOL, look at us in nearly every damn game fighting to get back in it or stay alive. It's a mental thing. We're never holding down a commanding lead. If we do build one, we get punched in the mouth and start playing like fairies.

Ok. Ok. Ok....

If we insist on keeping this team the way it is:

F#%KING MARVIN HAS TO HIT SHOTS and not stand around. Joe has to be the TOP TIER PLAYER that we pay him to be. Crawford has to come in the game and shoot lights out. Bibby has to make those open 3's. Smoove has to work more on the inside and he has to be ready to hit that outside shot. WE HAVE TO GO TO AL HORFORD MORE OFTEN. We need JJ away from the ball more. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. Jordan Crawford needs more minutes. Our bench has to come in WITH A PURPOSE. We have to move the ball. We have to execute. We have to stop making stupid passes. We have to stop playing selfish when we REALLY need a basket. We have to BUCKLE. DOWN. ON. DEFENSE. We have to play harder, scrap for lose balls, box out, keep the guards off the boards. We have to limit second chance points - and at the very least limit them during key possessions. We have to recognize guys that are hot and not allow them to keep burning us. We need better perimeter D (LORD we need better perimeter D). We need to control the tempo...push the ball...oh man...I can go on and on...

As far as coaching... I have no idea who Larry Drew is. Or who he is going to be. At some point, this team has got to stop nickel and diming and we need to put a legit squad on the floor with a LEGIT coach.

Honestly? I'm about ready to dump the core of this team (save for Horford + 1) and build around that - through a trade or two and the draft.

But...I'm just sucking down 100 proof vodka and ranting.

We'll see what the rest of the season brings.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-gabba-gabba!

Edited November 24, 2010 by Wretch

[CBAreject]

IHonestly? I'm about ready to dump the core of this team (save for Horford + 1) and build around that - through a trade or two and the draft.

I agree...but I felt the same way during the off-season. I'm so sick of hearing how versatile Josh Smith is. Versatile = liability.

[Diesel]

Yeah. I have to agree wretch.

I'm a Josh Smith fan but being a fan helps me to see how he and Horf doesn't make a good frontcourt C/PF tandem. It's just a PF/PF tandem and we've been calling it otherwise.

I have thought of guys who we could get for Smoove.

I'm sure you've seen My Smoove/Teague for Javale/Kirk/Al trade.

I was also looking at Smoove for Love/Flynn/ and Milicic (but no way Minny goes for that without some firsts).

I was even thinking about the possibility of getting Tyson (i play no offense) chandler... I just can't think of a good reason why Dallas would want Smoove.

I am at the point where I realize that getting back a talent like Melo won't help us.

With Chris Paul claiming happy winning, there goes that ship.

So here we are again. NO C, No PG. What else is new? I guess we have to try our best... Sund has his hands full. However, I want some of those players who you were talking about whoose only goal is to kick the other team's *ss and put the ball in the bucket.

[Joker]

Yeah. I have to agree wretch.

I'm a Josh Smith fan but being a fan helps me to see how he and Horf doesn't make a good frontcourt C/PF tandem. It's just a PF/PF tandem and we've been calling it otherwise.

I have thought of guys who we could get for Smoove.

I'm sure you've seen My Smoove/Teague for Javale/Kirk/Al trade.

I was also looking at Smoove for Love/Flynn/ and Milicic (but no way Minny goes for that without some firsts).

I was even thinking about the possibility of getting Tyson (i play no offense) chandler... I just can't think of a good reason why Dallas would want Smoove.

I am at the point where I realize that getting back a talent like Melo won't help us.

With Chris Paul claiming happy winning, there goes that ship.

So here we are again. NO C, No PG. What else is new? I guess we have to try our best... Sund has his hands full. However, I want some of those players who you were talking about whoose only goal is to kick the other team's *ss and put the ball in the bucket.

Your willing to trade a top 25-30 24 year old who protects the rim which is a ++ ability for

a. Another poor BBIQ type who is much worst and much less talented who is a center in McGee who can't post defend to save his life. Kirk isn't what he was in his first couple of years in Chicago any more and Al "meh" no defense Thornton. Horrible. Watching McGee this season reminded me that at least we don't have him. He will never get it and he is not any good at Basketball.

b. Of Love who is good but is a PF with no defense nor can he protect the basket like Smith, Flynn could be had for a mid 1st if Rubio in the NBA soon, and Darko who has the worst mental confidence in the NBA over the last 15 years and is just an average center. Another bad trade. This one has more talent but make just as little sense.

c. Wow, Smoove for Chandler. It's good that you post here and is as far from the corporation as possible.

Melo would help us but only if we get Nene or flip Craw for a Daly or another average center. But it will take a lot to get Smith. He has a lot of trade value and he has some ++ abilities, is a top 25-30 player and is 24 years old. This is too much of a reactionary post from you Diesel. I prefer you're crappy Marvin trades which usually make little sense as well.

Edited November 24, 2010 by nbasuperstar40

[Wretch]

I'm not going to give up on these guys...

But I have let go of Al and Josh as a frontcourt tandem. They may be good and later in the season, I may be eating a steaming pile of crow. Just like earlier in the season when we were playing GREAT basketball and I was high on LD. But I will not cry if either one gets traded. BK built a flawed team, it's time to undo the mad scientist experiment.

I'd love to have a guy like Chandler. He's a player I've been high on for YEARS. Doesn't solve the problem we have with offense though. People should not be disillusioned. We score -yes. But we score because, f#ck...somebody has to. We need real baskets...guys that can get shots. A BIG part of that is Joe Johnson. Moving Al to PF and going to him more would be great IMO and if it works out, I'm all for a guy like Chandler. I'd also love to have Nocioni. Right now, I'd do Nocioni for Marvin in a nanosecond. Pull it.

...as PG's go? I've liked Nate Robinson for a LONG TIME...but he's not a play 1maker and Boston has snatched him up and is not looking back. The only guy I really like is Devin Harris. Though he doesn't close the playmaking hoop, he's young, has offense, and can hit the 3. Man, if we could get him and not dump a core player...I'd ante my left leg.

If Denver was truly rebuilding, I'd do a deal for Melo/Billups for just about anything...

[Lascar78]

I agree...but I felt the same way during the off-season. I'm so sick of hearing how versatile Josh Smith is. Versatile = liability.

I've said it since before the 07 draft. If we were going to draft Horford, either he or Smith would have to be traded for long term success. Of course I also thought Conley would be good, so what do I know.

I think that right now Horford is the one untouchable piece, which is a bit awkward since he's a complementary type guy. We should have hired an established coach 2 and a half years ago and seen what the roster really could accomplish.

What this team is currently doing is not struggling in a way that will lead to success later in the season. They are showing no effort and bailing on the motion offense already. It's not over yet, but things look bad. We haven't played a lick of defense all season, including the 6-0 start.

[Plainview1981]

I figured this team would stumble in the first part of the season. New coach. New offense. I thought it would take until mid-late December for them to get it together. I also felt that by January/February time frame, we'd be much improved. I still believe that. I also still believe we can be a much better playoff team.

CAN be...

The biggest question I had coming into the season was whether or not Larry Drew could actually coach. Motion offense. Limited switching. Etc... That's all good, because everybody in the world knew what our problem was... But what about when the CACA hits the FAN!? Then what? Can he inspire these guys? Can he get egos under control? Can he keep them focused? Coaching is more than X's and O's and winning is more than strategy. In the NBA, winning is as much physical talent as it is mental fortitude. Which is also why I predicted the Heat would not win the title this year or next, but that is another story.

So what to do?

Well, first things first. Stop thinking that veteran journeyman is going to come in here and turn it around. There is no magical center (not named Dwight Howard) and there is no magical point guard (not named Chris Paul) that is going to magically transform us into a contender. I'm not as basketball savvy as some of you cats, so I'm going into PERs, +/-'s, and astrology. I try to keep things at a very basic level, because at it's heart...that's the truth of sport - men trying to conquer other men. lol

As a computer tech, I look at this thing as a problem...in which case, I have to make a reference to a known good first. In other words, what is a working model that I can reference to compare to...so I can see what's working. Orlando, Boston, Los Angeles, San Antonio, Utah, New Orleans, OKC...? What is so much different about these teams in the playoffs and during the regular season?

I'll tell you one thing: attitude. The Lakers don't step on the court looking to prove anything to anyone. They come to kick someone's *ss. Kobe comes to put that damn ball in the basket and take it away from someone on the other end - for 48 minutes. Same thing with Boston. They come to put their hands on you, frustrate you, and execute their offense. It doesn't matter if you're the Nets, the Clippers, the Spurs, or the Magic. Boston comes out to kick your *ss. These teams are chasing titles while we are still chasing respect. After all this time, we're still looking for people to say, "Hey...the Hawks are for real!" To hell with that.

Another part of their attitude is effort and hustle. These teams don't go out and give a half-*ss effort. They want it - every play. They want it and they get after it. We just...don't do that. NEVER. HAVE. We play like we want people to know we're serious. We play like "Hey! We can win this game against the Knicks." Other teams, they just basically...out work us. In the simplest terms...they come to WIN and we do not. That attitude has to change.

As far as players go...

Let's start with Marvin. Guy is a waste of space. Sorry. I have remained impartial long enough - you have too. Marvin is talented. He was a high draft pick. He may still have potential. We can't keep waiting on him. We need to wait until he gets hot and ship him as soon as possible to sweeten a deal. We need those 3's and hooks in the lane and those FT's. We need his rebounding and energy. But Marvin is just sitting in the passenger's seat waiting for someone to notice him. He doesn't have the heart of a champion. He has no fire.

Joe Johnson. Joe does not suck, but Joe is sucking. I can't sit here and debate what kind of player Joe Johnson is. Those with any sort of basketball intelligence understand what he is. You do or die with him. IDEALLY...you pair him with a guy like Kobe/LeBron/Durant and you create a problem on offense. As our "Star", Joe is simply not going to cut it. Trading him is not the answer. You need to build around/with him. I really have no opinion on JJ except, I'm going to wait on him to shake off the slump and I hope we can get a guy that can mesh with him and take us to another level.

Al Horford/Josh Smith - THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

You've lost your mind Wretch.

WTF are you talking about, these guys are the ONLY guys with heart on the team.

They're playing great right now.

Josh gives us [yadda/yadda/yadda]

Al gives us [whoopteedamndooo].

I love them both. And technically, neither is a "problem." The problem is both of them together...

Winning teams have 2 guys that can GET. IT. DONE. You can talk about coaching, defense, motion offense, cheerleaders, fans...bigs, smalls, Biggie Smalls. The bottom line is that the HISTORY of this game revolves around special players: Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Hakeem, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Bird, Duncan...etc. et. al. They are called "Stars" and this is a game driven by them. Stars don't get drafted because "they're such PROFESSIONALS." They don't get drafted because, "OMG...he can rebound and block shots." They get drafted HIGH because someone thinks that they can put the damn ball in the basket. Sorry, but it's the bottom line man...

Right now? We have 1.5 guys that can "put the ball in the basket." One is named Joe Johnson, the .5 is named Jamal Crawford. Al and Josh give us many things, but neither can "put the ball in the basket." Horf is getting better, but he isn't a reliable 1st or 2nd option. I hope he can be. Maybe he can...but the problem is, these two [Horf & Smoove] comprise a chunk of our starting lineup and they do not give us the offensive potency we need to kick teams' teeth in. With Bibby and Marvin giving us [ho hum] baskets here and there, it leaves JJ as the only guy that can really score for us (or Crawford off the bench). It ain't gonna cut it.

1st round of the playoffs? Sure.

2nd round? Eh...we can be competitive.

Beyond that... (Michael-Jackson-Thriller-laugh)

So what to do?

LOL, we have to trade one and ship him with Marvin's *ss. Sorry. It's the truth. It'd be great to move Marvin, keep these guys and get an All-Star SF/PG/Center in return...that ain't gonna happen. It is HIGH TIME for a Hawks blockbuster and it is the ONLY thing that is going to get this team over the hump. We will have to bring in another player that can PUT the ball IN the basket.

But Wretch...! Defense!

But Wretch...! PG play!

But Wretch...! Bigs! Rebounding! Coaching! Fans! Kitchen Sink!

Yeah. Well, you can't win if you can't score. BUT WRETCH...! We score lots of points! Yes, but we have a problem scoring when it counts. The kind of player we need does that...often. It's why they lead their teams to championships and franchises won't let go of them. We have a problem scoring when good teams are punching us in the face. Then we lay down, put our @sses in the air and say, "Whoop us!" We need to be able to build leads, keep leads, and demoralize teams.

WE NEED DEFENSE, YES. As much as I talk about offense and AllStar players. I'm first and foremost a fan of good defense. I also know though that part of a good defense is deflating a team. It takes a huge amount of effort to climb back into a game. It takes a chunk out of a team when you hit those late game "daggers." LOL, look at us in nearly every damn game fighting to get back in it or stay alive. It's a mental thing. We're never holding down a commanding lead. If we do build one, we get punched in the mouth and start playing like fairies.

Ok. Ok. Ok....

If we insist on keeping this team the way it is:

F#%KING MARVIN HAS TO HIT SHOTS and not stand around. Joe has to be the TOP TIER PLAYER that we pay him to be. Crawford has to come in the game and shoot lights out. Bibby has to make those open 3's. Smoove has to work more on the inside and he has to be ready to hit that outside shot. WE HAVE TO GO TO AL HORFORD MORE OFTEN. We need JJ away from the ball more. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. WE NEED TO MAKE SHOTS. Jordan Crawford needs more minutes. Our bench has to come in WITH A PURPOSE. We have to move the ball. We have to execute. We have to stop making stupid passes. We have to stop playing selfish when we REALLY need a basket. We have to BUCKLE. DOWN. ON. DEFENSE. We have to play harder, scrap for lose balls, box out, keep the guards off the boards. We have to limit second chance points - and at the very least limit them during key possessions. We have to recognize guys that are hot and not allow them to keep burning us. We need better perimeter D (LORD we need better perimeter D). We need to control the tempo...push the ball...oh man...I can go on and on...

As far as coaching... I have no idea who Larry Drew is. Or who he is going to be. At some point, this team has got to stop nickel and diming and we need to put a legit squad on the floor with a LEGIT coach.

Honestly? I'm about ready to dump the core of this team (save for Horford + 1) and build around that - through a trade or two and the draft.

But...I'm just sucking down 100 proof vodka and ranting.

We'll see what the rest of the season brings.

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-gabba-gabba!

There was no "hot start".

They were not playing defense when they were 6-0, and honestly were not all that impressive during that start. This team is always going to quit. They've quit and now even though they might put together a streak or two before the season ends, they will quit again before the season is done. That is this teams identity and it's not going to change. They've had 7 years to weed out these types of efforts and they haven't done it.

[Diesel]

I'm not going to give up on these guys...

But I have let go of Al and Josh as a frontcourt tandem. They may be good and later in the season, I may be eating a steaming pile of crow. Just like earlier in the season when we were playing GREAT basketball and I was high on LD. But I will not cry if either one gets traded. BK built a flawed team, it's time to undo the mad scientist experiment.

I'd love to have a guy like Chandler. He's a player I've been high on for YEARS. Doesn't solve the problem we have with offense though. People should not be disillusioned. We score -yes. But we score because, f#ck...somebody has to. We need real baskets...guys that can get shots. A BIG part of that is Joe Johnson. Moving Al to PF and going to him more would be great IMO and if it works out, I'm all for a guy like Chandler. I'd also love to have Nocioni. Right now, I'd do Nocioni for Marvin in a nanosecond. Pull it.

...as PG's go? I've liked Nate Robinson for a LONG TIME...but he's not a play 1maker and Boston has snatched him up and is not looking back. The only guy I really like is Devin Harris. Though he doesn't close the playmaking hoop, he's young, has offense, and can hit the 3. Man, if we could get him and not dump a core player...I'd ante my left leg.

If Denver was truly rebuilding, I'd do a deal for Melo/Billups for just about anything...

I've been high on Chandler for some time too. It's his size and his athletic ability. Another guy like that is Georgetown Center Hibbert. Neither of those guys are going anywhere though. I know that recently signed Brenden Heywood is available but I would rather shoot them Marvin than Smoove for Heywood.

The point is that we need a real big and we need to explore moving Al to PF.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Dang . . . Wretch was all over the place with that post.

Wretch, the problem is overall talent.

Lakers win the title, yet they go out and add vets Steve Blake and Matt Barnes to make them stronger

Boston was the runner-up, and from the time in late January in which we swept them, to the start of the season, Boston added

- Nate Robinson

- Shaq

- Jermaine O'Neal

- Delonte West

- Marquis Daniels ( whom they already had, but is coming back from injury )

San Antonio drafts a guy in the 2nd round that actually had lottery pick talent, but teams were afraid of because of possible physical issues with his knee, and because he was "undersized". We passed over him to draft Teague. That player is Dejuan Blair.

Wretch, what people will NEVER admit around here, is maybe . . just maybe . . the former coach had this group AS A TEAM, playing about as well as they could play, considering the obvious roster issues.

Our front office had a chance to add over the summer:

- Avery Johnson

- Josh Childress

- an extra 1st round pick

- Shaquille O'Neal ( even if we had to trade Marvin to Cleveland AND overpay Shaq to get him )

Instead, this is what we did:

- hired Larry Drew, Woody's assistant, and the guy the players wanted

- traded Childress and got nothing but a trade exception

- sold the extra 1st round pick for cash

- signed Jason Collins, whose only skill is position defense

- signed Josh Powell, whose only skill is erratic midrange shooting

- signed Etan Thomas, whose only skill is looking like a bodybuilder

- bought out a contract of a French player who didn't even start on a French team

80% of this fan base, and the GM, and the owners were ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that the former coach was the ONLY issue, and the person holding the team back from its full potential, despite the fact that that the team had improved by +7 ( 30 to 37 wins ), +8 ( 37 to 45 wins ), and +8 wins ( 45 - 53 wins ) in 3 consecutive seasons.

All of that without a bonafide superstar . . or a PG . . or a true C . . or a bench that was worth a damn, minus 1 player ( Chill one year, Flip one year, and Jamal one year )

But talent wise, we simply don't have championship talent . . and we never have.

Trading Josh Smith or Al Horford for some mediocre center does NOT solve the problem here. It'll only make us worse, because we'd still have no quality depth behind that center or Horford.

When we have a chance to add a huge center to the team who can still rebound at a high rate and score around the basket, we have to add that to the mix. But they were afraid with how he would fit in with these guys ( a direct quote from Drew, by the way, listed in the AJC article a few days ago. )

An old Shaq, as I and others illustrated all throughout the summer, is still better than 75% of the centers in the league. If Shaq was able to give us 24 minutes a night, and Horford and Smith could play minutes at PF alongside a big dude like that, we're not talking about the issues we're talking about right now.

People like to throw around the words "quit", like these players simply don't care. They care. But as a whole, the team is nowhere near as good as fans think they are.

- JJ isn't Kobe

- Smith isn't the "closest thing to Lebron in the league"

- Horford isn't the next Karl Malone

- Marvin isn't "James Worthy with a jumpshot"

- Teague isn't the next Rondo

- and Larry Drew isn't the next Phil Jackson

And outside of Jamal Crawford, there isn't a single player on our bench that could crack the rotation of the top 10 teams in the league.

It is what it is folks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So at the end of the day, the only thing we can hope for is for our starters ( mainly JJ ) to play at the level expected of them . . or one of the kids ( Teague or Jordan, or both ) to have the "light" come on, and them to start making major contributions to this team. Depending on guys like Marvin, Zaza, and Mo to do it, simply isn't much of an option right now.

In the end though, the front office will have to bring in quality players to add to the depth of this team. And hopefully they can/will play defense.

*Offense wins TICKETS

*Defense wins GAMES

*Rebounding wins CHAMPIONSHIPS

The Hawks are currently ranked in the 20s in both offensive and defensive rebounding.

( shrugging shoulders )

Oh . . . and Zaza isn't Rocky Balboa

[Wretch]

I agree with most of that North. I would have to add though that by NO MEANS am I for trading guys for mediocre talent:

So what to do?

Well, first things first. Stop thinking that veteran journeyman is going to come in here and turn it around.

Solves nothing. The kind of player we need can only be had by trading one of our front court guys. Marvin? I think trading him will be addition by subtraction. I'd pretty much welcome any deal for him. Get out of that salary and maybe get a guy in here that gives us something.

Good teams know how to build. They bring in vets like Kerr, Cassell, Artest..., etc. But they build the core first. I have to defer to my old CBA Reject signature: "You need hubcaps too, but you can't build a car with a bunch of hubcaps. You need an engine first." Overall talent is a problem. We need a new engine. Putting new hubcaps on this thing will help us, but we're going nowhere unless the core of this thing is upgraded. Right now, a guy like Josh Smith or Al Horford, combined with Marvin/Teague/an expiring Crawford MIGHT just get us the kind of upgrade we need. It's the best shot we have.

The better teams are fine tuning. It's easy to do when players WANT to come to a winning environment and they see that you have a core that is capable of and dedicated to winning games. We have a problem fine tuning this thing, because what we're tuning was limited from the jump and because nobody talks about coming to this team. We've got to do something to change the attitude surrounding this club on and off the court.

- hired Larry Drew, Woody's assistant, and the guy the players wanted

- traded Childress and got nothing but a trade exception

- sold the extra 1st round pick for cash

- signed Jason Collins, whose only skill is position defense

- signed Josh Powell, whose only skill is erratic midrange shooting

- signed Etan Thomas, whose only skill is looking like a bodybuilder

- bought out a contract of a French player who didn't even start on a French team

I was a fan of NONE of those moves this summer and it brought me to the conclusion that this ownership group cares nothing about getting out of the 2nd round.

As far as Woody goes...

I gave Woodson time. I don't jump on or off bandwagons. I don't form opinions too quickly and I don't waver. Woodson peaked with this team 2 years ago and we needed to bring in an UPGRADE. While I didn't believe Drew was a true upgrade (and voiced my displeasure many times), his approach to offense is the right approach. As is, a motion offense is the ONLY thing that can help this team do better than the beat down they suffered last year. I've seen enough good play early in the season to know that we can be a decent team if we buy into it.

We played well on the road against some scrub teams, yes. But we played well. We also fought a heroic battle with Orlando, in their house, with guys injured, and on a back-to-back. With a little more intensity and effort, we would have walked out of there with a win. It's easy to forget that when we're slumping. And I'm speaking of the players here, not the fans. This is where a coach has to come in and fire guys up to get after it. The mental aspect of the game once again... It's a long season.

Just like in game where guys have to keep taking shots when they are off, we have to keep playing games until we can get the team as a whole back on track. I'm sticking with my belief that we'll be a better team in a few months (much better) and we will have a better showing in the playoffs. BUT...these guys WILL have to pick their heads up off the floor and not look so defeated.

In the mean time, I expect Sund to be on the phone trying to bring a few sparks into this core.

[frosgrim]

The team does need a shake up. Drew isn't providing what is needed, unfortunately. He was the last guy on the list for me. I do hope he can find a way to motivate the club to play well and consistantly. Effort is what is needed at all times throughout the game. Which leads me to ask:

What gets this team fired up?

Maybe the problem is that the personalities just don't mesh. These guys don't have to like each other, but they do have to want to win. I think they LIKE to win, but it does seem they aren't consumed by winning. All it really takes is one of the starting 5 to be a guy that is consumed by winning and seems to become contagious. The really great players are consumed by wiinning, and until the Hawks find a guy that has that trait, they will be what they are today.

[Wretch]

The team does need a shake up. Drew isn't providing what is needed, unfortunately. He was the last guy on the list for me. I do hope he can find a way to motivate the club to play well and consistantly. Effort is what is needed at all times throughout the game. Which leads me to ask:

What gets this team fired up?

Maybe the problem is that the personalities just don't mesh. These guys don't have to like each other, but they do have to want to win. I think they LIKE to win, but it does seem they aren't consumed by winning. All it really takes is one of the starting 5 to be a guy that is consumed by winning and seems to become contagious. The really great players are consumed by wiinning, and until the Hawks find a guy that has that trait, they will be what they are today.

How true is that...

I hate to......but we have been THAT team ever since we traded Nique. It's a problem on so many levels. Fans need a face to get behind. Players need the energy of the fans. Owners need the fans to show up, pay money, and to make money...so they can spend money. We need winners so we can put a winner on the floor.

And it creates a mentality on both ends of the floor. The best teams, while obviously good at scoring...take pride in their defense. They realize they're good offensively, but the only way to win big is to commit to defense too. So they work on every play. They dive out of bounds for balls and they don't let the little bullsh#t creep up on them. It's an attitude man.

Every team has bad games against bad teams. But the better teams have fewer of them - and they don't have those games in the playoffs. It'll take our front office a couple of years to figure it out. By then we'll be throwing our hands up saying "WHY couldn't we have done that back in 2010?"

A major deal is in order here. A smart, major deal (or two) that will transform the face of this team and inject a new attitude. The only semi-untouchable guy that figures into that for me is Al Horford. For the sheer fact that you can tell he's the only guy on the floor that "gets" it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

There is no such thing as an untouchable player on the Hawks.

If we have a chance to package Horford in a deal for a box office draw like a Carmelo Anthony, then you do that in a heartbeat.

If a team isn't in position to win a championship, the ownership will opt to make money. Even JJ for Melo is a move you'd make.

There's no one "untouchable" on the Hawks.

Sund is an idiot. He proved that over the summer. But if I were the GM, the player I'm trying to deal is Jamal Crawford, because he has the talent + the desirable expiring contract teams may covet.

And there are a few guys who I would target:

If I want a big, I'm targeting Samuel Dalembert, because he's an expiring contract as well.

If I want a rebounder, I'm targeting Troy Murphy, even though he's sorry defensively

If I want a SG/SF, I'm targeting Andre Iguodala . . which defensively and as a slasher, would be ideal for this team

If I want a PG, I don't know who to target, seeing that we need a defensive PG here that can also run a team and provide timely offense.

So if I had to rank them in order, it would be Jamal Crawford for ..

1) Iguodala

2) Dalembert

3) Murphy

4) defensive or playmaking PG

To me, adding Iggy's defensive and athletic abilities to this team, would get us back on track . . . plus it moves Marvin to the bench.

But Drew is an offensive coach and Sund is an offense loving GM, so a move like that would never happen.

[Joker]

There is no such thing as an untouchable player on the Hawks.

If we have a chance to package Horford in a deal for a box office draw like a Carmelo Anthony, then you do that in a heartbeat.

If a team isn't in position to win a championship, the ownership will opt to make money. Even JJ for Melo is a move you'd make.

There's no one "untouchable" on the Hawks.

Sund is an idiot. He proved that over the summer. But if I were the GM, the player I'm trying to deal is Jamal Crawford, because he has the talent + the desirable expiring contract teams may covet.

And there are a few guys who I would target:

If I want a big, I'm targeting Samuel Dalembert, because he's an expiring contract as well.

If I want a rebounder, I'm targeting Troy Murphy, even though he's sorry defensively

If I want a SG/SF, I'm targeting Andre Iguodala . . which defensively and as a slasher, would be ideal for this team

If I want a PG, I don't know who to target, seeing that we need a defensive PG here that can also run a team and provide timely offense.

So if I had to rank them in order, it would be Jamal Crawford for ..

1) Iguodala

2) Dalembert

3) Murphy

4) defensive or playmaking PG

To me, adding Iggy's defensive and athletic abilities to this team, would get us back on track . . . plus it moves Marvin to the bench.

But Drew is an offensive coach and Sund is an offense loving GM, so a move like that would never happen.

You don't trade championship pieces, Boston and Chicago proved that as well as LAL. Guys like Horford don't go in trades, no matter what. Horford is untouchable because he's an All Star talent who understands winning and leadership plus he's a championship piece. He might not be the centerpiece but you need a player like Al to win a title in this league. Joe is valuable as well plus no one wants to take on Joe contract so he's here for the long haul. There are a lot of expirings in the league as we speak plus Atlanta doesn't want to go over the tax, it's that simple. You hold on to Jamal if you can't get a young cheap stud or a package deal for a star. I would love Daly right now but he might not be available till Jan or Feb like most valuable pieces. Iggy is worth more than Marvin and Craw but less than Smith. He is not a type that would fit for us to move forward. We really are going to have to sit on this roster till at least Jan or Feb then make moves. I don't think Sund an idiot as I don't think Shaq is the difference like you do. This team still has too many holes and going over the tax just doesn't make sense when your losing money like the Hawks. This team isn't a small piece away. This team is a major piece away, small moves won't do anything for us overall except provide temporary relief.

[Wretch]

There is no such thing as an untouchable player on the Hawks.

If we have a chance to package Horford in a deal for a box office draw like a Carmelo Anthony, then you do that in a heartbeat.

If a team isn't in position to win a championship, the ownership will opt to make money. Even JJ for Melo is a move you'd make.

There's no one "untouchable" on the Hawks.

Sund is an idiot. He proved that over the summer. But if I were the GM, the player I'm trying to deal is Jamal Crawford, because he has the talent + the desirable expiring contract teams may covet.

And there are a few guys who I would target:

If I want a big, I'm targeting Samuel Dalembert, because he's an expiring contract as well.

If I want a rebounder, I'm targeting Troy Murphy, even though he's sorry defensively

If I want a SG/SF, I'm targeting Andre Iguodala . . which defensively and as a slasher, would be ideal for this team

If I want a PG, I don't know who to target, seeing that we need a defensive PG here that can also run a team and provide timely offense.

So if I had to rank them in order, it would be Jamal Crawford for ..

1) Iguodala

2) Dalembert

3) Murphy

4) defensive or playmaking PG

To me, adding Iggy's defensive and athletic abilities to this team, would get us back on track . . . plus it moves Marvin to the bench.

But Drew is an offensive coach and Sund is an offense loving GM, so a move like that would never happen.

Agreed. But I didn't say that Al was untouchable. I said...:

The only semi-untouchable guy that figures into that for me is Al Horford. For the sheer fact that you can tell he's the only guy on the floor that "gets" it.

IOW, the O*N*L*Y way I trade him is...

If we have a chance to package Horford in a deal for a box office draw like a Carmelo Anthony,

We're in complete agreement. I'd be hesitant to trade him for a better fit, but equal value because the guy has that championship mentality. JJ's a legit 2nd option, and it'd be great if we could get a player at or above his level. With Al Horford, that's a championship core you can put "hubcaps" on. I agree though that I'd trade anyone on this team for the right deal. The only reason I'd be hesitant to trade JJ is because with him, we've got 2 of 3 pieces we need. We don't have a legit 1st option to be a contender. With JJ being the only true scorer on this team (and saying nothing of our attitude/defensive issues), we're going nowhere.

if I had to rank them in order, it would be Jamal Crawford for ..

1) Iguodala

2) Dalembert

3) Murphy

4) defensive or playmaking PG

I'd do any of those deals for Crawford. Though, I'm still intrigued by Teague and Jordan Crawford, so unless I got something REALLY solid for him, I'd pass on looking for that PG. I'm not ready to throw Jeff Teague under the bus. Just like I wouldn't give up on Jason Terry before he became an integral part of that very good Mavericks team. To me Teague looks like he's just got rookie jitters. I'm evaluating him based upon losing that. If he develops the confidence of some of the better PGs in the league, then he has the talent to be better than average on either end of the floor. I'm going to stand by that until someone serves me a plate of crow and I say don't throw him on the tail end of a deal (unless we get a 'can't refuse' type offer and the exclusion of JT is a dealbreaker).