OK, it's time we have the conversation...

[KB21]

You keep Al Horford and trade Josh Smith. There really shouldn't be any question here. Al Horford is the better, smarter player. Josh Smith may be more talented, but his lack of BBIQ keeps a cap on his potential. Josh is uncoachable. He only listens to what he wants to hear. When Josh plays within his limitations, he can be a dominant player. However, those instances are few and far between at this point. There was a good article about Josh recently, and that article drew the conclusion that Josh is like a person with multiple personalities. There is Josh Smith, who is the good side of him and does the things he should be doing. Then there is JSmoove, Josh Smith's alter ego who keeps telling Josh that he's something he isn't. JSmoove is the aspect that defiantly refuses to abandon shooting long two point jump shots.

Al Horford is a better fit at this time with Jeff Teague. Those two will allow the Hawks to become a bit more reliant on the pick and roll. Jeff Teague is tremendous at getting into the lane off the pick, and Al is a very good pick and pop guy at 15-18 feet. Al is also the better positional defender.

[DJlaysitup]

I voted keep Horford on a coin flip :tongue: .

Of course this "poll" has all the validity of the old queastion: "Answer yes or no...have you stopped beating your wife"

[Joker]

You keep Al Horford and trade Josh Smith. There really shouldn't be any question here. Al Horford is the better, smarter player. Josh Smith may be more talented, but his lack of BBIQ keeps a cap on his potential. Josh is uncoachable. He only listens to what he wants to hear. When Josh plays within his limitations, he can be a dominant player. However, those instances are few and far between at this point. There was a good article about Josh recently, and that article drew the conclusion that Josh is like a person with multiple personalities. There is Josh Smith, who is the good side of him and does the things he should be doing. Then there is JSmoove, Josh Smith's alter ego who keeps telling Josh that he's something he isn't. JSmoove is the aspect that defiantly refuses to abandon shooting long two point jump shots.

Al Horford is a better fit at this time with Jeff Teague. Those two will allow the Hawks to become a bit more reliant on the pick and roll. Jeff Teague is tremendous at getting into the lane off the pick, and Al is a very good pick and pop guy at 15-18 feet. Al is also the better positional defender.

I agree with the first paragraph but the second one is questionable. Teague's PnR is poor at best right now. He's an uptempo player. I think he's a much better fit with Smith than Horford is. Horford would prefer Bibby over Teague for his personal success on offense and defense.

[HawksFan87]

You keep Al Horford and trade Josh Smith. There really shouldn't be any question here. Al Horford is the better, smarter player. Josh Smith may be more talented, but his lack of BBIQ keeps a cap on his potential. Josh is uncoachable. He only listens to what he wants to hear. When Josh plays within his limitations, he can be a dominant player. However, those instances are few and far between at this point. There was a good article about Josh recently, and that article drew the conclusion that Josh is like a person with multiple personalities. There is Josh Smith, who is the good side of him and does the things he should be doing. Then there is JSmoove, Josh Smith's alter ego who keeps telling Josh that he's something he isn't. JSmoove is the aspect that defiantly refuses to abandon shooting long two point jump shots.

Al Horford is a better fit at this time with Jeff Teague. Those two will allow the Hawks to become a bit more reliant on the pick and roll. Jeff Teague is tremendous at getting into the lane off the pick, and Al is a very good pick and pop guy at 15-18 feet. Al is also the better positional defender.

Al Horford is a better fit with Teague huh? the playoff series against Chicago proved that he is not, he played a little better with Hinrich though..

Edited May 14, 2011 by HawksFan87

[AHawks89]

Al can't even catch a ball properly. Anyways, Smoove & Teague are a way better fit than Horford. I rather keep both and get a legit center.

[bonethugz]

The "Smith vs. Horford" argument is such a red herring around here. While both players have their limitations, they're not the central problem. They're both versatile enough to play on the same team.

The real problems are these:

1.) Marvin Williams' bloated contract preventing the team from nabbing some decent frontcourt depth.

2.) Joe Johnson's spiraling contract preventing the team from having any significant financial flexibility for the next five seasons.

Unless the Hawks rid themselves of at least one of those two contracts, arguing over Smith and Horford is a waste of breath.

me too. i would trade joe and marvin first. i thought we should've let joe go and sign john salmon and/or tony allen last summer. i think/want al and josh can co-exist

[Diesel]

me too. i would trade joe and marvin first. i thought we should've let joe go and sign john salmon and/or tony allen last summer. i think/want al and josh can co-exist

Making our team better is not a contract issue.

Making our team better is a personnel issue first.

To say that carrying two PFs who play with the same weaknesses is not a problem is really underestimating the situation.

Marvin cannot be easily moved. Let's say this first.

Why anybody would want to move Joe (who still is the most feared and respected Hawk) is beyond me.

Horford may be 3rd team all NBA, but nobody respects him? Do you think Chicago or Orlando respected him in the playoffs?

Look at Joe.

He draws the best defender with a double team.

From the coaching POV, that's what you want. You want a player on your team that requires a double team. That creates a whole in the defense. Our problem is that we didn't have a second player who can take advantage of that hole (until Teague). We liked Crawford, but Crawford's strength was outside shooting. His daring inside game has long disappeared. In the future, Joe/Teague is going to be a force...especially if we can get Josh to be the slasher and find one guy who is almost automatic inside. While I would love Howard, Jefferson, or Lopez to be that Guy, I would work with Chandler or Kaman. We just need that guy who can go in and be physical but come out with 2 points inside. Even if it means keep what we have and adding Eddy Curry and getting him in shape... If the guy has post moves... we need that to help our balance.

However, to just look at contracts and say he's making too much, he got to go for us to get better is really a lack of understanding this team, our problems, and our history.

I will ask it again...

What player would want to play for a Johnsonless Atlanta team. We can have all the money in the world, but without a star here, we will not be able to attract didley. Look over our history. Even when we had great players like Deke, Mookie, and Smitty, we couldn't attract one legitimate Sf to play with them. Therefore, we have to hold on to our stars, appreciate what they bring and build.

[bonethugz]

Making our team better is not a contract issue.

Making our team better is a personnel issue first.

To say that carrying two PFs who play with the same weaknesses is not a problem is really underestimating the situation.

Marvin cannot be easily moved. Let's say this first.

Why anybody would want to move Joe (who still is the most feared and respected Hawk) is beyond me.

Horford may be 3rd team all NBA, but nobody respects him? Do you think Chicago or Orlando respected him in the playoffs?

Look at Joe.

He draws the best defender with a double team.

From the coaching POV, that's what you want. You want a player on your team that requires a double team. That creates a whole in the defense. Our problem is that we didn't have a second player who can take advantage of that hole (until Teague). We liked Crawford, but Crawford's strength was outside shooting. His daring inside game has long disappeared. In the future, Joe/Teague is going to be a force...especially if we can get Josh to be the slasher and find one guy who is almost automatic inside. While I would love Howard, Jefferson, or Lopez to be that Guy, I would work with Chandler or Kaman. We just need that guy who can go in and be physical but come out with 2 points inside. Even if it means keep what we have and adding Eddy Curry and getting him in shape... If the guy has post moves... we need that to help our balance.

However, to just look at contracts and say he's making too much, he got to go for us to get better is really a lack of understanding this team, our problems, and our history.

I will ask it again...

What player would want to play for a Johnsonless Atlanta team. We can have all the money in the world, but without a star here, we will not be able to attract didley. Look over our history. Even when we had great players like Deke, Mookie, and Smitty, we couldn't attract one legitimate Sf to play with them. Therefore, we have to hold on to our stars, appreciate what they bring and build.

it's true. making a/our team better is a personnel issue. that's why i said letting joe johnson would be wise. joe johnson is one of the best talent in the nba but when you're not playing hard. that's no use. i probably old school, or dumb, or both. is it really you can't win with playing team ball? the pistons did it in 2004. the spurs had/have superstar(s) but they played team basketball always. jerry sloan had the jazz played great team basketball before this year for over 20 years.

[Diesel]

it's true. making a/our team better is a personnel issue. that's why i said letting joe johnson would be wise. joe johnson is one of the best talent in the nba but when you're not playing hard. that's no use. i probably old school, or dumb, or both. is it really you can't win with playing team ball? the pistons did it in 2004. the spurs had/have superstar(s) but they played team basketball always. jerry sloan had the jazz played great team basketball before this year for over 20 years.

That's a terrible answer.

here's why...

You would still have the logjam of Josh and Al.

Moving Joe would be losing the only player that can create for themselves (consistently).

Did you see what happened to Crawford when he was doubled?

Did you see what happened to Al when he was Isolated?

There was not enough players to double Josh, but do you notice that when it gets hot on the inside for Josh, he goes outside?

This is our team's flaws.

We like to make Horf out to be some old school brute... but he's not. He's a finesse PF just like Josh.

The difference is Josh is athletic and Horf is not so much.

Joe is the real difference on this team.

Joe faces that double team each and every game and he plays through it.

You trade joe for cap flexibility and you might as well say, we want to be back in the lottery every year.

I'm not saying that Joe is Kobe or Wade, but you have to realize that Joe helps the other players by making it hard to put pressure on them.

IF nothing else, you should have learned that watching this series.

Joe and Jamal started off hot.

GM2, Chicago's response was to double them everytime they were in their spot or going there. While that effected those numbers we love so much, it opened the floor for Teague, Josh, and Zaza to work.

Watch this...

What you are seeing is one of Teague's highlight dunks.

Notice that Noah is out of position?

Why?

He was doubling Joe Johnson.

Aside the assist, Joe should also get the credit for pulling the whole Chicago defense opposite side of the floor.

This is what Joe does.

You trade him, unless we get somebody who can do the same thing for him, we're worse off than before.

What you are proposing is knee Jerk.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The Pistons were arguably the best defensive team of all time, made up of guys who did at least one thing very well. And when I say very well, I mean at an All-NBA level.

- Ben Wallace: Defensive Player of Year, dominant rebounder and shot blocker

- Chauncey Billups: top notch PG that could defend, run the team, and maybe most important make big shots

- Rip Hamilton: very good midrange sharpshooter, decent defender

- Tayshaun Prince: Elite perimeter defender

- Rasheed Wallace: Very good post defender, decent offensive threat on the inside and outside

To use the Detroit example is cool. Just understand what the Pistons were made up of. Then look at us. We're nowhere near the defensive team that the Pistons were. And that's the only team in the history of the NBA that won a title without an offensive superstar.

To win oe even compete for a title, you need:

- 2 LEGIT all-star players with at least one of those guys being a big time offensive player

- a 3rd guy, or a group of guys who can step up as that 3rd guy, who can occasionally get it done

- play at a very high level defensively as a team. Preferably be a top 10, even a top 5 defense

- be a very good rebounding team that can limit opponents to be "one and done", and can gobble up offensive rebounds.

When you look at us, how many of these attributes do we possess as a team?

- Do we have 2 LEGIT all-stars? . . . Maybe, but they don't always show up

- Do we have a 3rd guy that can step up to help the All-Stars? . . . If people question if we even have a #1 or a #2 guy, how can we have a #3 guy? The truth may be that our #2 guy is more equipped to be a #3 guy

- Are we a top 10 defensive team? . . . NO

- Are we a very good rebounding team? . . NO

So if the Hawks were a spades hand, we would bid 1 and a possible . . or even say that we had 2 possibles.

Honestly, I look at Memphis, and I get very jealous. They basically got rid of everybody 4 years ago, with the exception of a young Rudy Gay . . acquired a much maligned low post scorer for expiring contracts . . used a plethora of 1st round draft picks to build up their depth . . acquired free agents and made trades to strengthen them defensively . . and promoted an assistant coach that understood how to maximize the talents of the ENTIRE roster.

And they're doing all of this without arguably their best player.

They blew up their team at the same time we were becoming a playoff team. And I'll be damned if they haven't surpassed us in every way, shape, or form. The freakin Grizzlies. And they passed us all because they know how to construct a team and develop players.

Memphis literally have a 2 and a possible, out of the 4

- very good rebounding team

- very good defensive team

- possibly multiple people who can step up and be the 3rd guy, with OJ Mayo being that guy on most nights

- they don't have the 2 All-Star players, altough they do have the dominant offensive scorer, who looks better because he scores on the inside

So when you look at us, we either need a stronger roster with people doing things very well. Or we need to acquire a player who can be a superstar.

It's unbelievable that Memphis has surpassed us.

Edited May 14, 2011 by northcyde

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What you are seeing is one of Teague's highlight dunks.

Notice that Noah is out of position?

Why?

He was doubling Joe Johnson.

Aside the assist, Joe should also get the credit for pulling the whole Chicago defense opposite side of the floor.

This is what Joe does.

You trade him, unless we get somebody who can do the same thing for him, we're worse off than before.

What you are proposing is knee Jerk.

Actually, when you look at that play, Noah wasn't doubling JJ . . but Derrick Rose had shaded all the way over to JJ, leaving Teague wide open in the corner. So it was essentially Rose and Bogans doubling JJ at the top of the key. JJ makes the correct pass to Teague, and Teague does the correct thing in attacking the rim. Also in that play, Collins ever so slightly screens out Boozer, allowing a clearer path to the rim for Teague. Noah, who was on the other side of the lane, simply couldn't rotate fast enough to stop Teague's dunk.

But your initial statement is right. That entire play was set up by JJ ( who was credited with the assist on that play ), and the attention the Bulls were paying to him. And you're also right when you say that if we can't get somebody who can draw the amount of defensive attention that JJ draws, then we're worse off than before, mainly because of the lack of shot creators on the team.

[bumpyphish1]

Anyone who voted for Josh Smith over Horford needs to get their head examined. Horford is the most valuable piece we have - even moreso than JJ.

You Squawkers amaze me sometimes.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

To win or even compete for a title, you need:

- 2 LEGIT all-star players with at least one of those guys being a big time offensive player

- a 3rd guy, or a group of guys who can step up as that 3rd guy, who can occasionally get it done

- play at a very high level defensively as a team. Preferably be a top 10, even a top 5 defense

- be a very good rebounding team that can limit opponents to be "one and done", and can gobble up offensive rebounds.

MIAMI ( 3 out of 4 )

- 2 legit offensive superstars in Wade and Lebron

- a legit 3rd guy in Chris Bosh

- very good defensive team

- questionable rebounding team

DALLAS ( 2 and 2 possibles )

- A legit offensive superstar in Dirk . . and 6 man of the year playing at an All-Star level in JT

- No real 3rd guy, although they have a collection of people that occasionally step up

- very good defensive team

- decent rebounding team

CHICAGO ( 2 and 2 possibles )

- One offensive superstar in Rose, but no real definitive #2 guy

- a collection of guys that could be the #3

- excellent defensive team

- excelllent rebounding team

MEMPHIS ( 2 and a possible )

- A legit offensive star, borderline offensive superstar in Zebo, but no real 2nd guy

- 3rd guy by committee, with OJ Mayo being that main guy

- very good defensive team

- very good rebounding team

OKLAHOMA CITY ( 1 and 2 possibles )

- A legit offensive superstar in Durant . . with a good, sometimes borderline superstar in guy in Westbrook

- a 3rd guy in James Hardin, but he is a questionable one

- questionable defensive team

- questionable rebounding team

[Diesel]

Anyone who voted for Josh Smith over Horford needs to get their head examined. Horford is the most valuable piece we have - even moreso than JJ.

You Squawkers amaze me sometimes.

For you, how is value measured?

Horford is fine as long as people bite on the pick and pop and he is not intimidated by the man he's playing.

Josh has more potential. At this point, Potential is an overused word and has no meaning except, there's room for Josh to grow better. Josh is the only player we have who can positively or negatively effect our team by how he plays. We play two series with Horf playing sorrily. We won one and showed up in the other. When Josh is not playing well, we will more often than not lose.

So again, how do you measure value?

Horf is liked better... Probably because he went to college and won some championships and is not a hot head and has a better BBIQ.

However, Horf is still mechanical. Doesn't create for himself. And is not a great passer.

Smoove can do the things that Horf doesn't. Horf is also not a low post player. Horf in the low post is like me at a vegetarian dinner. He looks out of place.

JJ on the other hand draws the defense night in and night out. Teams don't concentrate on stopping Horf. They realize if they play good defense, Horf will do what they want him to. JJ... is a problem!!

[gritsguy]

Josh, because he has the emotion and passion needed. Instead of being undermined by coaches, he needs to be given freedom to lead. Al is very solid, but why bother if he can't remain at that level when tougher competition rolls in?Josh is also a fan favorite when it comes to attendance. And finally, you can get more trading Al.

[Joker]

The Pistons were arguably the best defensive team of all time, made up of guys who did at least one thing very well. And when I say very well, I mean at an All-NBA level.

- Ben Wallace: Defensive Player of Year, dominant rebounder and shot blocker

- Chauncey Billups: top notch PG that could defend, run the team, and maybe most important make big shots

- Rip Hamilton: very good midrange sharpshooter, decent defender

- Tayshaun Prince: Elite perimeter defender

- Rasheed Wallace: Very good post defender, decent offensive threat on the inside and outside

To use the Detroit example is cool. Just understand what the Pistons were made up of. Then look at us. We're nowhere near the defensive team that the Pistons were. And that's the only team in the history of the NBA that won a title without an offensive superstar.

To win oe even compete for a title, you need:

- 2 LEGIT all-star players with at least one of those guys being a big time offensive player

- a 3rd guy, or a group of guys who can step up as that 3rd guy, who can occasionally get it done

- play at a very high level defensively as a team. Preferably be a top 10, even a top 5 defense

- be a very good rebounding team that can limit opponents to be "one and done", and can gobble up offensive rebounds.

When you look at us, how many of these attributes do we possess as a team?

- Do we have 2 LEGIT all-stars? . . . Maybe, but they don't always show up

- Do we have a 3rd guy that can step up to help the All-Stars? . . . If people question if we even have a #1 or a #2 guy, how can we have a #3 guy? The truth may be that our #2 guy is more equipped to be a #3 guy

- Are we a top 10 defensive team? . . . NO

- Are we a very good rebounding team? . . NO

So if the Hawks were a spades hand, we would bid 1 and a possible . . or even say that we had 2 possibles.

Honestly, I look at Memphis, and I get very jealous. They basically got rid of everybody 4 years ago, with the exception of a young Rudy Gay . . acquired a much maligned low post scorer for expiring contracts . . used a plethora of 1st round draft picks to build up their depth . . acquired free agents and made trades to strengthen them defensively . . and promoted an assistant coach that understood how to maximize the talents of the ENTIRE roster.

And they're doing all of this without arguably their best player.

They blew up their team at the same time we were becoming a playoff team. And I'll be damned if they haven't surpassed us in every way, shape, or form. The freakin Grizzlies. And they passed us all because they know how to construct a team and develop players.

Memphis literally have a 2 and a possible, out of the 4

- very good rebounding team

- very good defensive team

- possibly multiple people who can step up and be the 3rd guy, with OJ Mayo being that guy on most nights

- they don't have the 2 All-Star players, altough they do have the dominant offensive scorer, who looks better because he scores on the inside

So when you look at us, we either need a stronger roster with people doing things very well. Or we need to acquire a player who can be a superstar.

It's unbelievable that Memphis has surpassed us.

I watch a lot of Memphis games. They been more of a team than us but they just had issues finding an identity. They struggle to bring the hard hat every night till the minute they started Tony Allen. Allen changed EVERYTHING. The Battier trade was genius. Thabeet has potential but was much more raw than imagined but most of their drafting has been really good. Their trades have been nothing short of amazing with the exception of Marc for Pau. That one won LA two titles but it's starting to pay off for Memphis. It helps Conley is coming into his own. He has found a role his comfortable with and it shows. Their bench was really weak in years past but Battier and Mayo have been huge for them as well as Arthur becoming a solid PF. Development has help them the most. They just needed to find an identity and a fit. The Hawks are in a much worst position. They have three impact players and NONE fit. No matter what Atlanta does, that's an issue. Atlanta has topped out in that regard. Teague has the potential to be the 4th but money and fit is also an issue. The Hawks are a mess with a ton of talent.

[Joker]

For you, how is value measured?

Horford is fine as long as people bite on the pick and pop and he is not intimidated by the man he's playing.

Josh has more potential. At this point, Potential is an overused word and has no meaning except, there's room for Josh to grow better. Josh is the only player we have who can positively or negatively effect our team by how he plays. We play two series with Horf playing sorrily. We won one and showed up in the other. When Josh is not playing well, we will more often than not lose.

So again, how do you measure value?

Horf is liked better... Probably because he went to college and won some championships and is not a hot head and has a better BBIQ.

However, Horf is still mechanical. Doesn't create for himself. And is not a great passer.

Smoove can do the things that Horf doesn't. Horf is also not a low post player. Horf in the low post is like me at a vegetarian dinner. He looks out of place.

JJ on the other hand draws the defense night in and night out. Teams don't concentrate on stopping Horf. They realize if they play good defense, Horf will do what they want him to. JJ... is a problem!!

Horford has far more potential than Smith. Smith has topped out in terms of the overall player he will become. Smith is the most talented, but Smith is more talented than almost all PF's not named Blake Griffin. Horford can become a superstar given the perfect fit. Given the perfect fit for Smith, he would put up bigger numbers but his overall impact will remain the same. That's not the case of Horford. He's only mechanical when the ball is in stand still. The fact that he can't create his own shot doesn't help. Horford is liked better because he's better and has A LOT more potential in an overall sense. JJ and Horford aren't the same players, that's a dumb comparison.

Edited May 15, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Diesel]

Horford has far more potential than Smith. Smith has topped out in terms of the overall player he will become. Smith is the most talented, but Smith is more talented than almost all PF's not named Blake Griffin. Horford can become a superstar given the perfect fit. Given the perfect fit for Smith, he would put up bigger numbers but his overall impact will remain the same. That's not the case of Horford. He's only mechanical when the ball is in stand still. The fact that he can't create his own shot doesn't help. Horford is liked better because he's better and has A LOT more potential in an overall sense. JJ and Horford aren't the same players, that's a dumb comparison.

No. It's the other way around. Horf is not going to be more atheletic. Horf is already telling you that he has to transition to PF because he can't continue to play physical. Horf is a finesse PF (in mentality) and the extent of his game is going to be pick and pop and average to above average defense. Horf is not a great passer and doesn't seem to be looking to improve that. Horf is not a great ball handler. Horf is a good rebounder but him shying away from physical play will limit that. In short, Horf will never be Taj Gibson. He will by just like Boozer without the inside play. Now, that could be good but just like Boozer, he will be somewhere seemingly overpaid because he's not the big brute inside.

Josh on the other hand is not topped out. IN the Chicago series, he started doing something that he hasn't done with consistency... post moves. I agree that there is a time when Josh's athletic ability will wane. However, he's 25-26... He has at least 4 more years before that hits. And if he stays in shape, it might not hit so hard.

[Swatguy]

While Al is so loved he should be moved for what's needed and a pick. He is good and it may never be "very" good. When you witness him shrink you realize he is not what you thought he was. He has regressed to an "Euro" type big, in love with the 18ft jumper.

With Josh we have extreme athletic talent and heart. It is what separates the two.

Josh is the keeper without a doubt.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Swatguy

[EazyRoc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

THIS

Horford was consistently bad throughout the playoffs.

Thats because most guys here have a short memory. They are so focused on the bad series Al had,

that they forget the whole regular season.

What this team needs more than ANYTHING is consistent effort. Al gives you that. Josh does not.

Josh will have one game that reminds you of how good he could be and then he follow it up with

5 bad games. He is the cancer that causes this team to play up and down all the time.

It's not ok that Al Horford had a bad postseason. He's supposed to be a leader of this team and turned in one of the most underwhelming postseason ive ever seen from an All NBA player. I used to be one of the guys in Al's corner, but I had to re-evaluate my position after his disappearing act. I'm really starting to think Al really is soft. He mishandled so many passes that would have led to contact and a potential score/foul. I don't want to hear anything about matchups, considering he had a career game against the Bulls without Smith. Ask yourselves this..If Smiths jumper starts falling..will he still be the black sheep around here ?

He needs that jumper to become a complete offensive player. He can't take a lot of forwards off the dribble when they play off of him. He's not an explosive post scorer but can do a little damage. The problem is everyone wants him to be the next Shawns Kemp, but he isn't big enough nor strong enough to be that kind of presence in the paint. So yea..he's not stupid for wanting to add that jumper in fact he absolutely needs to add that jumper to his game or else he will be a useless player in the later years of his career. Just imagine where McDyess would be without developing a jumper...