Can the Hawks win a title with JJ as the #1 guy?

[AHF]

More than I do the same teams with Horf instead.

I really like the Bogut and the Lopez teams.

Think about what they bring.. not how much star power they have Think about our need. With Hinrich at the PG. That's big. Then there's our need for consistent points in the paint. Defense and Rebounding. With Bogut, we probably would have beaten Chicago and Miami.

None of those teams have a chance at a title. Whether they are better than a Horford team or not, they aren't contenders, IMO. I don't think the impact of subbing out Horford for Lopez (much worse on the boards) or Bogut (an upgrade when healthy, which is only a 50/50 proposition over the last 3 years) would make a material difference in the championship odds - basically they would go from 0.05% to 0.1%.

Edited June 10, 2011 by AHF

[99PROBL3MS]

Joe had and plays with two 2nd team All Defense players, a 3rd team All NBA player and 2 time All Star, 6th Man of The Year winner and secondary 20 points per game scorer yet woe is him. Get him a 20 and 10 lost post threat and a 10 assist a game PG and then he will really blossom into that 28 point a game superstar that he is!

Way to overexaggerate it......That really strengthens your argument.

Ex.

PG Kidd

SG Joe

SF Marion

PFSmoove

C Chandler

Terry

Barea

Haywood

Are you telling me that team couldn't contend?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I would bet a ton of money against any of these squads coming back to Atlanta with a ring:

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Kendrick Perkins/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Brook Lopez/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Andrew Bogut/Zaza/Jason Collins

Kirk/Teague

JJ/Crawford

Marvin/Damien Wilkins

Josh Smith/Josh Powell

Joakim Noah/Zaza/Jason Collins

You really like any of those teams as NBA champions this season?

(On the Pistons teams that didn't have an MVP, Isiah Thomas >> JJ and Chauncey Billups > JJ but at least that is a credible argument unlike the other 29 of the last 30 years).

At the very least, we would need Marvin to transform his game in the same way Trevor Ariza did for the Lakers during their title run. Right now, we would need more out of Marvin, in order to balance out the team more and be more competitive vs elite teams.

I personally would start Teague before Hinrich on all of those lineups, but the lineup with Smith and Noah on the frontline does give us very good shot blocking and rebounding, with Noah being the active body at all times around the rim.

The team this year was a lost cause, from JJ on down. But with the way Horford played this postseason, any of those centers would've given us a better chance to advance.

The 2000 Indiana Pacers squad that got to the NBA Finals and took the Lakers to 6 games, consisted of these players

- Jalen Rose ( leading scorer at 18.2 ppg . . also averaged 4.8 rebs and 4 assists - 47% FG - 39% 3FG )

- Reggie Miller ( averaged 18.1 ppg - 45% FG - 41% 3FG )

- Rik Smits ( center who averaged 12.9 ppg - 5.1 rebs )

- Dale Davis ( 10 pts - 9.9 rebs )

- Mark Jackson ( 8.1 pts - 8 asst )

- Austin Croshere ( 6th man . . 10.3 pts - 6.4 rebs )

- Travis Best ( 8.9 ppg - 48% FG - 38% 3FG )

- Sam Perkins ( 6.6 ppg - 41% 3FG )

That was their top 8 players. Not impressive by any stretch of the imagination. No All-NBA players on that squad. Only one All-Star selection ( Miller ., . and that was mainly due to his reputation ). That team had the #1 rated offense that year in the league.

Reggie ups his game big time during the playoffs ( 24 ppg ) , along with Rose ( 21 ppg ), providing that 1 - 2 punch needed in the playoffs. And the other guys were solid enough most nights to compliment what those two gave the Pacers. Too much Shaq though, and the Pacers lost in 6.

That Pacers team though got the most out of everybody, and had enough shot creators on that team to take that team very far. Jackson played his role as the floor general, while Davis did the dirty work on the inside. If Smits hadn't fallen off so much by that time, who knows if the Pacers could've challenged the Lakers a little bit more.

[MaceCase]

I have to wonder,

Now I've questioned the doozy of the argument that Joe doesn't need more talented players to drop him down the pecking order but rather he just needs "skillsets" around him. Never mind that his own personal performance is lackluster but the argument is that he will somehow blossom when the GM's finally get him the right "skillsets" players that will allow both him and, by extension, the team to actually contend. It hasn't been enough for him to have two good defensive bigs, one great on man the other great from the helpside, both rather efficient scoring the ball and amongst the best passers at their positions, defensive wings in Marvin/Mo/Damien, high percentage floor spacers in Bibby/Hinrich that can handle playcalling and a comparable scorer(s) to share the court with him at most times in Jamal/Flip.....No, he he has to have a passfirst PG and lowpost scorer also for him to finally earn his keep.

Alright then, I've found the perfect match for JJ as an actual answer to the thread's question without having to resort to massive deflections and delusions......

Dallas.

Dallas has most of those skillsets that JJ needs in a team, Defensive Rebounding big in Chandler, Pass First PG in Kidd, Wing Defender in Stevenson, Secondary Scorer in Terry, an assortment of Shooters, Floor Spacers and Ball Handlers off the bench and I guess we'll just have to settle with Marion as that hybrid big that can also guard 4 positions and spends 70% of his time in the paint on offense which added to Chandler makes them more than formidable in that regard.

Now, replace Dirk with JJ.

Is that team still up 3-2 on the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals?

I've satisfied the criteria for JJ being both the best player on the team and him having the multitude of skillsets that some are saying he's lacking here but does that put a team like Mavericks in the same position they are in now? They've got the primetime coaching in Carlisle who was the original architect of the Detroit dynasty and even led very successful Pacer teams before the Malice At The Palace broke them up and it's a team of Vets all JJ's age or older with good IQ. So, replace Dirk with JJ. Same Results? Yay or nay?

[99PROBL3MS]

Yeah, JJ averages 18 ppg on 29% from three because he gets doubled. Poor, poor JJ. If all those other hall of famers had gotten doubled they would have all struggled to score 20 points on a consistant basis.

:boohoo:

I love how all of those Miami fans use that argument while making excuses for Wade.... oh wait, no they don't. That's because Wade put up a PER of 30 against us on a team with Joel Anthony as the second most productive player. People don't understand that the fact you have to EXPLAIN why JJ can't play well is THE reason he isn't a franchise superstar. "boohoo, JJ is playing with a bad hand/knee/finger... Boohoo, JJ gets doubled, Boohoo, JJ doesn't have a supporting cast (which isn't even close to true btw)" Meanwhile Nowitski is about to win a championship with Jason Terry as the second best player on his team and a TORN freaking tendon in his hand. The only thing JJ has in common even remotely with the upper echelon of players is his contract. Every other individual and team statistic that exists shows he is not even in the same galaxy as these guys. All these arguments are such BS it's pretty amazing you guys even believe it. JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him??? than how in the hell do you explain his best scoring season coming when we had a 28 win team? He can't be effective because he gets doubled... How do you explain EVERY OTHER superstar in the league who gets doubled, some considerably more aggressively than JJ, still put up superstar numbers. You can't. You won't even address these points you will just continue repeating the same things that are proven to make no sense whatsoever.

You guys keep arguing with yourselves......Who said JJ is on the same level as Lebron and Wade???? Show me one post where someone said that? Dirk doesn't have just Jason Terry either. Who said JJ isn't good because he doesn't have enough talent around him? Lebron is being doubled in this series. Is he putting up Superstar numbers? No his equal counterpart Wade is. Wade was doubled in the CHI series. Did he put up Superstar numbers? No his equal counterpart Lebron did. When ORL doubled Joe, did he put up Superstar numbers? No Crawford picked up the slack and made them pay for i. Although I won't say Crawford is JJs equal counterpart, he is still more than capable of filling it up and serves as he perfect example for what I am saying.

When Joe destroyed CHI in game one, they trapped him the rest of the series and Craw didn't have it going. Neither did Marvin. Neither did Horford. Teague picked up some slack but was allowing as many as he scored. Smoove picked up the slack and had a monsterous game 4 but reverted back to being the jump shooter in games 5 and 6. Horf and Marvin didn't give us what we needed from their spots. I agree that these arguments are such BS because no one has even made those arguments. You did.....

Edited June 10, 2011 by 99PROBL3MS

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Way to overexaggerate it......That really strengthens your argument.

Ex.

PG Kidd

SG Joe

SF Marion

PFSmoove

C Chandler

Terry

Barea

Haywood

Are you telling me that team couldn't contend?

That lineup looks a whole hell of a lot better on paper when you actually look at it.

JJ is still the best player on that team. But now, you have Kidd as his PG, Marion as a defensive SF, and Chandler as a defensive C who can block shots. Plus an upgrade in Terry off the bench as the 6th man, and a better upgrade in Haywood instead of Zaza.

Yeah . . . that team could contend for the title.

Even if you eliminated Smith from that squad, you still could insert Haywood at center and move Chandler to PF

PG - Kidd

G - Johnson

F - Marion

PF - Chandler

C - Haywood

JJ wouldn't be able to give you the lights out production of Dirk, but it would give other guys a chance to do a little more. Even without Smith on the roster, that's a formidable team.

Edited June 10, 2011 by northcyde

[MaceCase]

Way to overexaggerate it......That really strengthens your argument.

Ex.

PG Kidd

SG Joe

SF Marion

PFSmoove

C Chandler

Terry

Barea

Haywood

Are you telling me that team couldn't contend?

We thought of the same question at the same time. But I'm leaning towards another direction than you obviously.

Just as an FYI in case you're not sure what direction that is.

In the 9 games that Dirk missed during the season due to his knee sprain the Mavericks were 2-7

In the 9 games that Joe missed during the season due to elbow surgery the Hawks were 5-4.

You've gotten mad daring people to show once where JJ was compared to Lebron, Wade etc...Well you just said that JJ and a team of roleplayers would contend....just like Lebron, Wade etc would. See there's no need to be obtuse and think you have a point because something wasn't explicitly pointed out but it has surely been implied throughout this thread.

Edited June 10, 2011 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[99PROBL3MS]

I have to wonder,

Now I've questioned the doozy of the argument that Joe doesn't need more talented players to drop him down the pecking order but rather he just needs "skillsets" around him. Never mind that his own personal performance is lackluster but the argument is that he will somehow blossom when the GM's finally get him the right "skillsets" players that will allow both him and, by extension, the team to actually contend. It hasn't been enough for him to have two good defensive bigs, one great on man the other great from the helpside, both rather efficient scoring the ball and amongst the best passers at their positions, defensive wings in Marvin/Mo/Damien, high percentage floor spacers in Bibby/Hinrich that can handle playcalling and a comparable scorer(s) to share the court with him at most times in Jamal/Flip.....No, he he has to have a passfirst PG and lowpost scorer also for him to finally earn his keep.

Alright then, I've found the perfect match for JJ as an actual answer to the thread's question without having to resort to massive deflections and delusions......

Dallas.

Dallas has most of those skillsets that JJ needs in a team, Defensive Rebounding big in Chandler, Pass First PG in Kidd, Wing Defender in Stevenson, Secondary Scorer in Terry, an assortment of Shooters, Floor Spacers and Ball Handlers off the bench and I guess we'll just have to settle with Marion as that hybrid big that can also guard 4 positions and spends 70% of his time in the paint on offense which added to Chandler makes them more than formidable in that regard.

Now, replace Dirk with JJ.

Is that team still up 3-2 on the Miami Heat in the NBA Finals?

I've satisfied the criteria for JJ being both the best player on the team and him having the multitude of skillsets that some are saying he's lacking here but does that put a team like Mavericks in the same position they are in now? They've got the primetime coaching in Carlisle who was the original architect of the Detroit dynasty and even led very successful Pacer teams before the Malice At The Palace broke them up and it's a team of Vets all JJ's age or older with good IQ. So, replace Dirk with JJ. Same Results? Yay or nay?

Good question. I think That team would still give MIA hell for sure. JJ and Terry would give MIAs backcourt serious problems. Wade would have to defend Joe instead of cheating off Stevenson and closing on 3s when they kick out to him. JJ would be another distributor and playmaker. Dirk has been so clutch in this series that I don't think that could be duplicated. JJs first two years in ATL, he was tied for second in the League for unassisted game winning shots with 8. He isn't an elite closer but hit some pretty big shots in this post season. I think that team would still be a hell of an out for anyone.

[dlpin]

Not only was Rondo a real PG, and led the team in assists, all of the big three could pass.

The year they won the title he put up 10 and 5. Hardly a significant improvement over bibby/hinrich/teague. Right now? Yes. Back then? no.

If you replaced Rip Halmilton with JJ on that Detroit Piston Team.. don't they still win? Isn't JJ the best player on that team?

I've already said that the only way that JJ would be the best player on a title team is if it was a team like those pistons. Defensive player of the year, 3 on the all the defensive team, 4 all stars, etc.

Kendrick Perkins. Brook Lopez. Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, When do you want me to stop?

The truth is.. when you're talking about Horf the C, in a series... He's not that good. Horf is made of paper stats. He's good enough to get 19/10 because the league is weak and he can score against weak competition... especially when he's the kick out on Joe or Jamal or Bibby's play. However, when teams focus on Horf, what does he do?

Look at his playoffs. He went from being a 55.7% shooter to being a 42.3% shooter this year.

Yr 1 .499 to .472

Yr 2 .525 to .424

Yr 3 .551 to .523

Yr 4 ..557 to .423

These are Horfs regular season to Playoffs numbers. Every year, he dropped. Some years very significantly.

First year = Boston

Second Year = Miami and Cleveland.

Third Year = Milwaukee (without Bogut) and Orlando

FourthYear = Orlando and Chicago

How many other Centers go from being over 50% sometimes 55% shooting on the year to under 45% shooting as easily as Horf?

Really? You think that Perkins as a center makes the hawks title favorites? Even though Perkins couldn't take the Thunder, with a much better cast, to the finals? Noah makes the hawks a contender?

All those players are worse than JJ. But none of them make the hawks a contender.

JJ and Gasol would be about equal if they played with each other. What did Gasol ever do when he was the main guy in Memphis? He didn't even win a playoff game. Both JJ and Pau could alternate being the #1.

1- No, they wouldn't. Gasol not only has more all nba selections, but if you want to compare gasol in memphis to jj you have to look them at the same period. The last full, healthy season Gasol had in Memphis, 05-06, he was the best player on a 49 win team that had Mike Miller as the second best player. Joe Johnson was leading the hawks to 26 wins. I don't know anyone anywhere that would rather have JJ over Gasol.

2- Gasol and Johnson wouldn't win the title. Gasol and Kobe needed 7 games and a major injury to a celtics starter to win the 2nd title.

The 2000 Indiana Pacers squad that got to the NBA Finals and took the Lakers to 6 games, consisted of these players

- Jalen Rose ( leading scorer at 18.2 ppg . . also averaged 4.8 rebs and 4 assists - 47% FG - 39% 3FG )

- Reggie Miller ( averaged 18.1 ppg - 45% FG - 41% 3FG )

- Rik Smits ( center who averaged 12.9 ppg - 5.1 rebs )

- Dale Davis ( 10 pts - 9.9 rebs )

- Mark Jackson ( 8.1 pts - 8 asst )

- Austin Croshere ( 6th man . . 10.3 pts - 6.4 rebs )

- Travis Best ( 8.9 ppg - 48% FG - 38% 3FG )

- Sam Perkins ( 6.6 ppg - 41% 3FG )

1- That was the weakest period in the east in a long time. The only reason they took the lakers to 6 was because Kobe was young and injured (missed almost 2 full games of the finals). If Kobe didn't miss game 3, that series would have been a sweep.

2- You are shortchanging those players with those numbers. 4 of those players had been all stars at one point in their careers, and Jalen Rose was the most improved player that year.

But the question remains: which team would be both a contender and have JJ as the best player? I guarantee you can't come up with one short of putting 4 all stars/all defensive players of almost similar skill alongside him.

[dlpin]

Good question. I think That team would still give MIA hell for sure. JJ and Terry would give MIAs backcourt serious problems. Wade would have to defend Joe instead of cheating off Stevenson and closing on 3s when they kick out to him. JJ would be another distributor and playmaker. Dirk has been so clutch in this series that I don't think that could be duplicated. JJs first two years in ATL, he was tied for second in the League for unassisted game winning shots with 8. He isn't an elite closer but hit some pretty big shots in this post season. I think that team would still be a hell of an out for anyone.

I don't think that team would even get out of the west. Dallas beat okc in 5 games. But the margins of victory were 9, 6, 7 (in ot), and 4. And to get those wins they needed Dirk scoring 32 per game and shooting over 50% from 3. Has JJ ever given any indication that he can average that for an entire series?

[Atlantaholic]

Gasole is a much better player than JJ. I mean it's not even close. And yeah, a team with Gasole and JJ and a bunch of role players isn't winning s***.

[Atlantaholic]

Zero MVPs makes zero titles not that surprising. I haven't done the research but I doubt those guys even finished as a runner-up in an MVP vote.

Not to mention those same players that were once considered superstars ended up being considered some of the greatest under achievers in the history of the NBA for various reasons. Any of those guys was light years ahead of JJ in their prime, btw, and couldn't win anything, so how does bringing them up support the argument that JJ is good enough to win us a championship?

[99PROBL3MS]

We thought of the same question at the same time. But I'm leaning towards another direction than you obviously.

Just as an FYI in case you're not sure what direction that is.

In the 9 games that Dirk missed during the season due to his knee sprain the Mavericks were 2-7

In the 9 games that Joe missed during the season due to elbow surgery the Hawks were 5-4.

You've gotten mad daring people to show once where JJ was compared to Lebron, Wade etc...Well you just said that JJ and a team of roleplayers would contend....just like Lebron, Wade etc would. See there's no need to be obtuse and think you have a point because something wasn't explicitly pointed out but it has surely been implied throughout this thread.

Well here we go. There is a difference between saying two players are on the same level and comparing their respective situations. What does three Mavs record without Dirk have to do with what I said? How its that relevant. Are you implying that DAL has worse surrounding players for Dirk than ATL has for JJ? I wonder how Wade and Lebron feel about those measly role players right now.

Edited June 10, 2011 by 99PROBL3MS

[AHF]

JJ wouldn't be able to give you the lights out production of Dirk, but it would give other guys a chance to do a little more. Even without Smith on the roster, that's a formidable team.

I don't think that Mavericks team gets very far without the lights out production of Dirk. The others accomplish what they do less effectively than Dirk and would have even more trouble if they were relying, for example, on Marion or Kidd to take harder shots to cover for the gap between JJ and Dirk's production. I.e., I think it would give you diminished results all around.

[99PROBL3MS]

I don't think that Mavericks team gets very far without the lights out production of Dirk. The others accomplish what they do less effectively than Dirk and would have even more trouble if they were relying, for example, on Marion or Kidd to take harder shots to cover for the gap between JJ and Dirk's production. I.e., I think it would give you diminished results all around.

I think you may be right but that team would still be in the convo and better than our current makeup. We are seeing now how important having the right role players is in the Finals. One superstar and a team of to notch role players us beating a team with two top five players, an allstar and worse role players. Dirk its leading that team and prong together some 7-9pt runs. He isn't carrying them. It was those same role players posters on here are belittling that hit all those big 3ptrs.

[dlpin]

I think you may be right but that team would still be in the convo and better than our current makeup. We are seeing now how important having the right role players is in the Finals. One superstar and a team of to notch role players us beating a team with two top five players, an allstar and worse role players. Dirk its leading that team and prong together some 7-9pt runs. He isn't carrying them. It was those same role players posters on here are belittling that hit all those big 3ptrs.

He is most definitely carried them against the thunder.

[Atlantaholic]

I think you may be right but that team would still be in the convo and better than our current makeup. We are seeing now how important having the right role players is in the Finals. One superstar and a team of to notch role players us beating a team with two top five players, an allstar and worse role players. Dirk its leading that team and prong together some 7-9pt runs. He isn't carrying them. It was those same role players posters on here are belittling that hit all those big 3ptrs.

Dalllas supporting cast is not better than ours. Just no way. Horford and Josh are BOTH better than anyone on that team outside of Dirk. Crawford is Terry's equal. The only position where you could say they are better is at PG, and it's not like Jason Kidd is exactly stellar out there at 38. He shot like 36% on the season. If Dallas wins it will be with one of the worst supporting casts in NBA history. JJ most definitely would never be able to pull that off. If JJ was on that Dallas team it would take a TOP season from him for that team to crack 40 wins. If he played like he did this season that team wins around 30. If we build our team around Dirk and our Core - JJ we would be an elite Eastern Conference contender every season.

[Diesel]

The year they won the title he put up 10 and 5. Hardly a significant improvement over bibby/hinrich/teague. Right now? Yes. Back then? no.

When you look at his playoff performance, he raised his apg to 6.6.. He played lock down defense. Something that Bibby could never do.

[NineOhTheRino]

You guys talk about Joe as if he has done something special. FACT is the guys has never made it pass the second round as a Hawk. After all these years what has he accomplished? He's a mediocre player on a mediocre team. Any discussion that doesn't deem his tenure here as a failure is complete bs.

Edited June 11, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[99PROBL3MS]

Dalllas supporting cast is not better than ours. Just no way. Horford and Josh are BOTH better than anyone on that team outside of Dirk. Crawford is Terry's equal. The only position where you could say they are better is at PG, and it'Is not like Jason Kidd is exactly stellar out there at 38. He shot like 36% on the season. If Dallas wins it will be with one of the worst supporting casts in NBA history. JJ most definitely would never be able to pull that off. If JJ was on that Dallas team it would take a TOP season from him for that team to crack 40 wins. If he played like he did this season that team wins around 30. If we build our team around Dirk and our Core - JJ we would be an elite Eastern Conference contender every season.

Well LBJ, Wade, and Bosh are having serious trouble defending those role players yet you think ours who were out played by CHIs are better? Jason Kidd frustrated the heck out Westbrook and he shot terrible. Barea had his way with Westbrook also. Marion is going toe to toe with Lebron and playing well. (could Marvin do that?). Crawford is Terry's equal?

2011 Playoffs

Terry: 17ppg 46%FG 44%3pt 2reb 3asst 1.2stl

Craw: 15ppg 39%FG 35%3pt 1.3reb 2.5asst 0.8stl

Terry isn't capable of Craw's huge games but his consistency blows Craw out of the water.