Hate all you want.....Joe is still thinking about you!

[Diesel]

http://www2.journaln...rued-ar-113126/Like with questions, history gets revised also.Very interesting read that involves our Hawks also being involved in that deal.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-wetzel_game_changing_decision_032411

Bryant also had powerhouse representation, rising agent Arn Tellem and Adidas rep Sonny Vaccaro, who had staked millions on Bryant right out of Lower Merion High School. At first, Tellem wanted Cal to draft Bryant and kept sending Kobe to FDU to cause jaws to drop.Then the Lakers stepped in and requested a workout. L.A. was picking 24th, but Tellem was interested – better franchise, bigger market, more Adidas flying off the shelves. The Lakers set it up at the old Fabulous Forum in Inglewood, Kobe matching up with Dontae Jones, a big, physical, 6-foot-8 senior who had just led Mississippi State to the Final Four. It was no contest; Kobe destroyed Jones from the word “go.”“I remember [Lakers general manager] Jerry West coming down from the stands after just a little while and saying, ‘Shut down the workout,’ ” Vaccaro said. “He didn’t need to see any more. That was it. Game over.”There was no way to get Bryant to drop all the way to the Lakers, so West began working potential trades. If Kobe could get to Charlotte at 13, he said, the Lakers could trade Vlade Divac for the young phenom. Team Bryant wanted it to happen.

That also opened the door for the Lake show to get Shaq.They knew who they wanted.

[MaceCase]

So they knew who they wanted to draft with the lotto pick they traded Vlade for......that changes the fact they traded one of their top players from a playoff core for a lotto pick..... You never get tired of dancing do you?And the article further disproves your statement that Kobe "Franchised" his way out of Charlotte. He was never intended by them to be a Hornet.

Edited April 8, 2012 by MaceCase

[AtLaS]

Yeah... but it has not worked the other way around.That's my test.What teams have traded away good players for Lottery picks and have ended up in the finals... Not winning the finals, but in the finals?Now, let's do it the other way around...Detroit gave us the Josh Smith pick and they won the finals... over the Lakers.The Lakers gave up Kwame Brown and a first rounder for Gasol and they ended up... IN the finals.We already mentioned Boston.People scoffed at Dallas giving up Devin Harris and PIcks for Jason Kidd... and Dallas ended up.... In the finals.Even when you look at Miami.. they mortgaged their drafts for the next few years... Theyve been to one finals.As you seek to find a team that has done it the other way by acquiring picks...or getting a better shot at the lottery (we've dont it twice already)...I want you to think of the trend. Teams that give up and go after picks become feeder teams for those who look for championships.

Houston Rockets in the 80s. They broke down a solid team and ended up with the twin towers. They made it to the Finals in their 2nd season. The Lakers with Kobe are another example. But, you are getting away from the point and trying to switch the argument into something that is harder to prove. This is the bottom line, MOST championship teams are built through the draft, and superstars win championships. Unless you are a LAL, Boston, NYK etc that can recruit top talent to your team. It has nothing to do with how they ended up in the lottery. All that matters is they gained a superstar.

[Diesel]

So they knew who they wanted to draft with the lotto pick they traded Vlade for......that changes the fact they traded one of their top players from a playoff core for a lotto pick..... You never get tired of dancing do you?And the article further disproves your statement that Kobe "Franchised" his way out of Charlotte. He was never intended by them to be a Hornet.

Dancing?? You're the one that quoted "Vlade for a player to be named later".. "They didn't even know who they wanted to draft until 5 minutes before drafting"...Those are quotes you brought to the conversation... Check it out... go up a few post...Mace,You're the only one dancing. Like the end of Last American Virgin.. you're the only one in the car crying my friend.I made it clear...Kobe and his power team wanted to play for nobody else but the Lakers. That's why NJ got Kerry Kittles.Arm Tellem became a monster in this business because he had the power to change drafts and direct players. It didn't start with just Shelden.

[Sothron]

I have to agree with Diesel. I'm old enough to remember that draft and it was blatantly obvious that Kobe would only play for the Lakers.

[Diesel]

I have to agree with Diesel. I'm old enough to remember that draft and it was blatantly obvious that Kobe would only play for the Lakers.

The Kobe draft makes you really question one thing in basketball...Should Agents and Shoe companies be allowed in negotiations?Honestly, Kobe was meant to be a Laker because Adidas and Arm Tellem conspired to get him to that Large Market to sell shoes.Roy got to PTL because Arm Tellem thought that it would be the best place for him to grow him and made Atlanta take Shelden as repayment for the Joe Johnson trade.Agents and Shoes was behind Melo going to NY.I think agents are in D-12's ear.At some point, the NBA both the owners and the unions will have to simplify everything so that there is no need for an agent.Shoe companies already rule college basketball, the pros need to be free of their chains.

[Sothron]

The Kobe draft makes you really question one thing in basketball...Should Agents and Shoe companies be allowed in negotiations?Honestly, Kobe was meant to be a Laker because Adidas and Arm Tellem conspired to get him to that Large Market to sell shoes.Roy got to PTL because Arm Tellem thought that it would be the best place for him to grow him and made Atlanta take Shelden as repayment for the Joe Johnson trade.Agents and Shoes was behind Melo going to NY.I think agents are in D-12's ear.At some point, the NBA both the owners and the unions will have to simplify everything so that there is no need for an agent.Shoe companies already rule college basketball, the pros need to be free of their chains.

Can't disagree with you. It is also why I believe Lebron is trying to monopolize the field with agents and marketing contracts with his company.

[KB21]

The Kobe draft makes you really question one thing in basketball...Should Agents and Shoe companies be allowed in negotiations?Honestly, Kobe was meant to be a Laker because Adidas and Arm Tellem conspired to get him to that Large Market to sell shoes.Roy got to PTL because Arm Tellem thought that it would be the best place for him to grow him and made Atlanta take Shelden as repayment for the Joe Johnson trade.Agents and Shoes was behind Melo going to NY.I think agents are in D-12's ear.At some point, the NBA both the owners and the unions will have to simplify everything so that there is no need for an agent.Shoe companies already rule college basketball, the pros need to be free of their chains.

William Wesley is the guy that is controlling everything now. It would not surprise me if he is in Dwight's ear right now. That Orlando job might be an attractive job for William Wesley's buddy, John Calapari.

[MaceCase]

Dancing?? You're the one that quoted "Vlade for a player to be named later".. "They didn't even know who they wanted to draft until 5 minutes before drafting"...Those are quotes you brought to the conversation... Check it out... go up a few post...Mace,You're the only one dancing. Like the end of Last American Virgin.. you're the only one in the car crying my friend.I made it clear...Kobe and his power team wanted to play for nobody else but the Lakers. That's why NJ got Kerry Kittles.Arm Tellem became a monster in this business because he had the power to change drafts and direct players. It didn't start with just Shelden.

Lets see the dance.First with the original question.

That's my test.What teams have traded away good players for Lottery picks and have ended up in the finals... Not winning the finals, but in the finals?

My answer:The Lakers traded Vlade for the lotto pick that became Kobe.Your first dance.

No... My question referenced a team going to the lottery.. not just getting a lottery pick.

*rereads first question*No it didn't.Second dance:

Kobe was drafted by Charlotte and he pulled a Steve Francis and said he would play for nobody but the Lakers. And they traded him to the Lakers.

Member of Charlotte front office at the time.

The deal was actually done a day ahead of time, and it was Vlade for a player to be named,"

Conclusion to anyone with a modicum of common sense:The Hornets never intended to pick Kobe seeing as they had already traded their pick to the Lakers for Vlade thus he never "forced" his way anywhere.In fact, read this major part of that article (because I know you loathe reading)

A look back into the archives shows that the notion that Kobe orchestrated the trade is bogus. Kobe, in an interview during the 2000 Finals when the Lakers beat Indiana for the NBA title, said emphatically that he would have gladly played in Charlotte.

Thing is, he was never going to be a Hornet though.And World Wide Wes is just another urban myth about the power of agents. They make bluffs and it's up to front offices to call them. If Wes and shoe companies had the power people claim they do then Lebron would be a Knick and Dwight never would have opted into his last season.

[Diesel]

Lets see the dance.

First with the original question.

My answer:

The Lakers traded Vlade for the lotto pick that became Kobe.

Your first dance.

*rereads first question*

No it didn't.

Second dance:

Member of Charlotte front office at the time.

Conclusion to anyone with a modicum of common sense:

The Hornets never intended to pick Kobe seeing as they had already traded their pick to the Lakers for Vlade thus he never "forced" his way anywhere.

In fact, read this major part of that article (because I know you loathe reading)

Thing is, he was never going to be a Hornet though.

And World Wide Wes is just another urban myth about the power of agents. They make bluffs and it's up to front offices to call them. If Wes and shoe companies had the power people claim they do then Lebron would be a Knick and Dwight never would have opted into his last season.

Let's make this real easy for you....

I said my first question referenced going to the lottery... Let me remind you of where I entered... and what I said

Yeah. I bought a ticket in the megaMillions last week. Just one. However, that's the mentality of a lot of Hawks fans now. They have the mentality that if we were able to start from scratch, we could build a better team. What they fail to see is that we have tried this... twice.

The first time, we got rid of Smitty, Mookie, and Deke... and got back Terry, Big Dog, Theo, and Shareef.

After that, we got rid of them and got what we have now.

What we have learned is that no matter how much money you have, it's hard to entice players to come to Atlanta... UNLESS you overpay them.

What we have learned is that WE SUCK at drafting.

What we have learned is that... it's important to keep good coaching.

What we have learned is that... each time we change, we lose more identity.

But guess what.

We want another shot at the lottery.

The very next post by me... I said...

But what if there is no light?

What if we destroy and rebuild and we become the New Bobcats?

What if we destroy and rebuild and we become the New Cavs?

Haven't you learned anything from the elite teams?

Haven't the Lakers proved to you that when you have talent and a good name that you don't need a lucky lottery pick?

Let's talk about some of these teams that have won?

Dallas... Why didn't they get rid of Dirk after years of not winning?

Los Angeles... It's funny how they always get what they want and they don't have to go to the lottery. Gasol just dropped in their laps.. why? Because everybody wants to play for them.

A few post Later... I said

Blow it up is drastic. Especially when we have good trading pieces. The other thing is that there is no plan beyond blowing it up for people who insist on blowing it up. Does that make sense?

Every year, there are several teams that have fire sales and "blow it up". None of them ever sniff the title.

Like I said, I have referenced going to the lottery not just getting a lottery pick.

Again Mace... you're the only one dancing.

[MaceCase]

Funny, I don't see any of that written in this post here.

Yeah... but it has not worked the other way around.

That's my test.

What teams have traded away good players for Lottery picks and have ended up in the finals... Not winning the finals, but in the finals?

Now, let's do it the other way around...

Detroit gave us the Josh Smith pick and they won the finals... over the Lakers.

The Lakers gave up Kwame Brown and a first rounder for Gasol and they ended up... IN the finals.

We already mentioned Boston.

People scoffed at Dallas giving up Devin Harris and PIcks for Jason Kidd... and Dallas ended up.... In the finals.

Even when you look at Miami.. they mortgaged their drafts for the next few years... Theyve been to one finals.

As you seek to find a team that has done it the other way by acquiring picks...or getting a better shot at the lottery (we've dont it twice already)...

I want you to think of the trend. Teams that give up and go after picks become feeder teams for those who look for championships.

I don't even see a single question either in those set of post outside of rhetorical "what ifs" and this gem that you were so kind to bold

Haven't the Lakers proved to you that when you have talent and a good name that you don't need a lucky lottery pick?

I'm guessing that at the time they traded for the pick that would become Kobe before the draft that he was a reigning MVP and 5 time champion.......and not in fact a lottery pick

Bellissimo.

[Diesel]

Conclusion to anyone with a modicum of common sense:

The Hornets never intended to pick Kobe seeing as they had already traded their pick to the Lakers for Vlade thus he never "forced" his way anywhere.

Since you like to read, let's get the other perspective here. GM BOB BASS...

Let's share just a few quotes...

Armed with the knowledge that the Hornets were in the market for a post player, West made a pre-draft deal with Bass in which the Hornets would draft Bryant if he were still available and later swap his rights to Los Angeles for Divac.

That's not 5 minutes before the pick mind you...

Bryant canceled a workout with the Sacramento Kings, who had the No. 14 pick in the first round in 1996 and declined to work out for the Hornets. His agent, Arn Tellem, also told the Hornets, according to Bass, that Bryant did not want to play in a small market such as Charlotte.

Do I even need to go into why NJ selected Kerry Kittles when Calipari was so taken with Kobe Bryant?

Let me give you the Cliff notes...

The Nets had brought Bryant in for three workouts, and a year before that they had been hearing stories from the likes of Jerry Stackhouse, Rasheed Wallace, Doug Overton and Tim Legler about a 16-year kid from Lower Merion H.S., who was lighting up every NBA player he was matched against in workouts at the Philadelphia Sporting Club.

The afternoon of the draft, Nash received two phone calls - one from Bryant and one from his agent, Arn Tellem.

"They said Kobe had had a tremendous change of heart," Nash said. "Kobe suggested he wouldn't play in New Jersey."

Within a couple of hours, Nash learned that the Hornets and Lakers had worked out a deal to sent Vlade Divac to Charlotte for the rights to Bryant. Lakers president Jerry West had already offered Divac to the Nets for the eighth pick, but New Jersey turned it down.

As Nash recalls, he, then-coach John Calipari and then-owner Joseph Taub discussed what to do. Nash wanted to call Bryant's bluff and take him anyway; Calipari wanted to take Kerry Kittles (agent David Falk was pleading with the club to select Kittles, just as Tellem was begging them not to draft Bryant), while Taub wanted to take John Wallace to fill a need at small forward.

Calipari had final say, and the Nets decided to pick Kittles with the No. 8 pick.

"Arn Tellem had something to do with that. I don't know how much leverage a 17-year old kid can have," Bryant said. "At that point in time I was ready to play anywhere - Mars, Jupiter, New Jersey, Charlotte, didn't matter."

Kobe wanted to go to L.A., it was clear. As Vaccaro said, "First of all, it's Jerry West, and it's the guy on the [logo] and all that stuff. And it's the Lakers. There is something to it. It wasn't like Jerry West was with the Omaha Mushriders."

John Nash and John Calipari were every bit as accurate as Jerry West was, but they did not have the power of the Lakers franchise behind them. Yes, West was shrewd in his evaluation of Kobe Bryant, but without the Lakers, he never would have landed him.

[MaceCase]

Its clear you can't even read your own evidence....So Vlade was involved in a deal before the draft that would exchange him for a lotto pick? Oh gee, who was the first to mention that.

[AtLaS]

Not to mention he still hasn't acknowledged Houston in the 80s that led to a Finals appearance two seasons later and eventually won two titles.But, that wasn't my point. Championship teams have superstar players, it's just a fact. What is the best way to acquire a superstar if you are in a market like Atlanta? The draft. Yes, there is luck involved but we don't exactly have Shaq and LeBron lining up to play here. Most championship teams were built through the draft or had the foundation of their team built through the draft anyway. It doesn't matter where the team was previously.

[MaceCase]

Not to mention he still hasn't acknowledged Houston in the 80s that led to a Finals appearance two seasons later and eventually won two titles.But, that wasn't my point. Championship teams have superstar players, it's just a fact. What is the best way to acquire a superstar if you are in a market like Atlanta? The draft. Yes, there is luck involved but we don't exactly have Shaq and LeBron lining up to play here. Most championship teams were built through the draft or had the foundation of their team built through the draft anyway. It doesn't matter where the team was previously.

This is true and I've said it previously: Dating back to the merger no team has won an NBA championship without a player they acquired in the draft being worse than the 2nd best player on their teams with the exception of the 78 Bullets and 83 Sixers who had a player they drafted be the 3rd best player and the Pistons who had no player they drafted be a top player. No surprise that those exception teams also had the shortest contenders peak.

[Diesel]

Not to mention he still hasn't acknowledged Houston in the 80s that led to a Finals appearance two seasons later and eventually won two titles.But, that wasn't my point. Championship teams have superstar players, it's just a fact. What is the best way to acquire a superstar if you are in a market like Atlanta? The draft. Yes, there is luck involved but we don't exactly have Shaq and LeBron lining up to play here. Most championship teams were built through the draft or had the foundation of their team built through the draft anyway. It doesn't matter where the team was previously.

I will acknowledge Houston.They traded Moses Malone (why??) for a first rounder and they went into the lottery for three years after trading Malone.. and ended up getting Ralph Sampson and Rodney McCray...You know I could counter this point easily, but I will say this is 1 success out of ??? Many tries.. A lot of teams give up players for picks with the hopes of going to the lottery (firesale) and they have no true plan for how to rebuild and they end up nowhere.Our history is the point. This last time around, we had....6 lottery picks... And out of those 6, we got 2 players that may be allstar but NO championship quality players.

[Diesel]

This is true and I've said it previously: Dating back to the merger no team has won an NBA championship without a player they acquired in the draft being worse than the 2nd best player on their teams with the exception of the 78 Bullets and 83 Sixers who had a player they drafted be the 3rd best player and the Pistons who had no player they drafted be a top player. No surprise that those exception teams also had the shortest contenders peak.

How soon did you forget those Lakers... You just made a case that Kobe was traded to the Lakers. That means that they didn't draft him but Charlotte did. Shaq was drafted by Orlando.

Let's look at the last 10 years with this...

Over the last 10 years, you have: Lakers, Spurs, Heat, Mavericks, Pistons, and Celtics.

The engines for those teams.

Lakers: Shaq, Kobe... Kobe, Gasol.. - None of those players were drafted by the Lakers.

Spurs: Duncan, Ginobili.

Heat: Wade, Shaq

Celtics: Pierce, KG, and Allen.

Mavericks: Dirk, Kidd

Piston: Billups, Rip

Now, when we look at all the players who were drafted by these teams:

Duncan, Dirk, Wade, Pierce... One thing come out.. Only Duncan is the only guy on this list that could have got it done without significant help from elsewhere.

Pierce was in Boston when they sucked.

We were just beating the hell out of Wade in Miami without Shaq or Bron.

Dirk was a running Joke and people still don't know how they won so easily (Lebron effect).

These guys teams did the best thing they could, they went out and found HELP. They traded for the players that ultimately made the difference.

This is important because we are in that same place. We don't have a superstar that can carry us to the finals, but we have a player who given help... would be great and could help us win a final.

[MaceCase]

Oh my Jesus.......How is it that after evidence that both you and I have compiled that you still believe that Charlotte picked Kobe despite the fact that they had already traded their pick to the Lakers before the draft. Mind boggling.

[Diesel]

Oh my Jesus.......How is it that after evidence that both you and I have compiled that you still believe that Charlotte picked Kobe despite the fact that they had already traded their pick to the Lakers before the draft. Mind boggling.

Because Charlotte did Pick Kobe.In the record books, Kobe was drafted by Charlotte.A funny thing happened.Charlotte picked Kobe... and Vlade didn't agree to the trade.Kobe was not traded on draft night.Kobe was traded 5 days after draft night.Vlade had to be coerced to accepting the deal and not retiring or going to Europe.So What is your message? Are you saying that Charlotte had no choice in the matter, they were bound to pick Kobe. Did you believe that LAL traded Vlade of a draft pick?? No Charlotte traded Kobe for Vlade.If you read what Bass said, he said that they went with the trade because they needed a big and it would get Shaq out of the East. But nothing was set in stone, they could have changed their mind at any time.Moreover, his agents forced that deal to take place.Now I don't know what world you're trying to create here Mace... but there's enough of the truth here for a child to see how this went down. I don't know why you keep dancing but dance on.

[MaceCase]

Charlotte picked Kobe FOR the Lakers......how is this still being debated.

Charlotte's top scout

"The deal was actually done a day ahead of time, and it was Vlade for a player to be named,"

http://www2.journaln...rued-ar-113126/

Charlotte's GM

"We had the deal, " Bass said, "but who in the world thought (Bryant) would be there at No. 13? And the Lakers, regardless of what they said after they had (Bryant), but they wanted space on the cap to sign Shaquille O'Neal. And devious as I am, I thought it would be a good way to get Shaquille out of the Eastern Conference. If we'd have gotten Michael and some others out, that would have been something."

http://blog.nola.com...b_bass_liv.html

Vlade was already going to the Hornets before the draft. Sure the Lakers and Kobe's agent were targetting for him to go to LA but the deal was set to already trade Vlade so that the Lakers could pursue their main prize, Shaq.

Kobe himself

"Arn Tellem had something to do with that. I don't know how much leverage a 17-year old kid can have," Bryant said. "At that point in time I was ready to play anywhere - Mars, Jupiter, New Jersey, Charlotte, didn't matter."

He admits he would have played anywhere, Tellem was blowing smoke and GMs bit even though it didn't take much biting considering how rare it was to draft a High School Guard that high but if any team picked Kobe before 13 he would have gladly played there and Vlade would have still been traded to Charlotte as per the deal that was done before the draft.

About Vlade threatening to retire and go back to Europe.......really at 27 he would retire?

Divac initially did not want to play for the Hornets, preferring to stay in L.A. where his wife was pursuing an acting career.

Yea, there are pleeeeeeeeeeenty of acting opportunities in Yugoslavia!

You seem to be forgetting that the league also has to officially approve deals after the fact regardless of whether or not teams have already agreed to them and are shaping their roster around it. Saddest dance ever.