Peachtreehoops nails it on why Jeff Teague has struggled.

[Peoriabird]

Whoever stated "Teague is playing with a bunch of bums is the real reason" is right on the freaking money! Finally someone gets it. Thank you and I will buy you a beer next time you come trough TN.

And here is the funny thing about the this whole argument...Both sides agree that there was a drop off after Horford got hurt but Haters still refuse to acknowledge that it helps to have someone who can make a shot after the pass is thrown to them. I can't tell you how many passes were thrown to Ayón in perfect position to make a layup or dunk only to see him bang it off the backboard! And even with Ayón starting at center, Teague is still 7th amongst point guards in assist per game.

The next argument Teague is his shooting which has never been a problem in the past so it is safe to assume that this year is the exception and not the rule. In fact, Jeff Teague has a higher career shooting percentage than the great Joe Johnson who was widely considered a #1 option. But anyway, as I've stated before, losing has a negative affect on this fan base. And even though 2/3 of the fans on this MB are in favor of the Hawks being a lottery team, each and every loss results in more and more animosity toward the organization and its players.

So "Who you crapping?"

Edited February 28, 2014 by Peoriabird

[macdaddy]

Fair enough. I guess we can point to how he's among the worst of his PG contemporaries in FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, TS%, Turnover %, PER, and on and on. Look how he compares with other PGs between 20 and 29 years old who average 5 apg or more. Sort on any number of categories and you'll see how poor he is.

For single seasons; played in the NBA/BAA; in the regular season; in 2013-14; from age 20 to 29; played G; qualified for Minutes Per Game Leaderboard; requiring Assists Per Game >= 5; sorted by descending Win Shares Per 48 Minutes.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&per_minute_base=36&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2014&year_max=2014&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=20&age_max=29&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&pos_is_g=Y&qual=mp_per_g_req&c1stat=ast_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=5&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws_per_48

I will admit to total ignorance of win shares.

As far as FG% he's one percentage point or less below Lawson, Lillard, Law, Irving and Lowry. So yes he is in the bottom 60%. Frankly that's a decent % considering he's shooting 3s so horribly.

[Admin]

Not the fault of the OP but the thread makes no sense and is only here for certain people to post in bulk. He is definitely the current Josh Smith. Al Horford's rebounding was down even when playing this year and nobody acted like they saw it. Millsap has really been forcing it since Al went down and nobody sees it. Ferry's decision making put this team in a position where depth is lacking but everyone wants to give him more time even after he could not get it done with the best player in the league and first ballot HOF'er Lebron James.

I feel that a lot of people like posting more than basketball. Most people are not even discussing the article, just redundant stuff about what Teague isn't and never will be.

Certain posters? Oh gosh I guess that was your passive aggressive way of coming down on me and now you've ruined my day.

[Admin]

I will admit to total ignorance of win shares.

As far as FG% he's one percentage point or less below Lawson, Lillard, Law, Irving and Lowry. So yes he is in the bottom 60%. Frankly that's a decent % considering he's shooting 3s so horribly.

I'm no expert with Win Shares either but when the main stat geeks around here all get behind it, it says a lot to me. I don't care much for FG% since the vast majority of his makes are in the paint. TS% and eFG% are much more valuable as that shows everything and you realize that he's a major shooting liability in 2/3 of the areas of offense and defenses don't have to defend him in those areas.

[macdaddy]

I'm no expert with Win Shares either but when the main stat geeks around here all get behind it, it says a lot to me. I don't care much for FG% since the vast majority of his makes are in the paint. TS% and eFG% are much more valuable as that shows everything and you realize that he's a major shooting liability in 2/3 of the areas of offense and defenses don't have to defend him in those areas.

But isn't the sheer number of makes in the paint a positive? He knows his shooting has been terrible and unlike others he isn't jacking shots. The curious thing to me about win shares is that it seems if you are on a losing team your win shares stat sucks.

[Admin]

But isn't the sheer number of makes in the paint a positive? He knows his shooting has been terrible and unlike others he isn't jacking shots. The curious thing to me about win shares is that it seems if you are on a losing team your win shares stat sucks.

It's a positive that he's so good in there, absolutely. But it masks how awful he is from everywhere else. Check out this shot chart and tell me it's not alarming and you can see why he's a liability to the offense. He's got one spot beyond the FT line where he has to be guarded but beyond that you can leave him alone. He's pretty much showing unless he's directly in front of the rim he can't shoot.

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/1090-Jeff-Teague/season/2013-2014-REG

Then take a look at how he shot last year, when according to some people's claims he should show a lot better since he was playing with good players. Does this look impressive? He really only has that zone at the top of the key 3 and then just inside the arc where he's a weapon and he has to be guarded.

http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/1090-Jeff-Teague/season/2012-2013-REG

I thought the same as you about the win shares but @AHF cleared that up recently with numerous stats showing team record doesn't have any bearing over it. Before that I really didn't buy into being a legit stat and now I do.

[DJlaysitup]

I'm no expert with Win Shares either but when the main stat geeks around here all get behind it, it says a lot to me...

Well you see Dolfan...you can't trust the main stat geeks. They just make sh!t up like me .

If you want real information...and maybe a way to earn money from home...pm me and I can fill you in on it.

I earned $12 by giving people sh!t for not paying their bills...(kidding of course)

Edited February 28, 2014 by DJlaysitup

[Admin]

Well you see Dolfan...you can't trust the main stat geeks. They just make sh!t up like me .

If you want real information...and maybe a way to earn money from home...pm me and I can fill you in on it.

After your Bynum thread you no longer carry any cache around here my drunk friend lol.

[Sothron]

Funny when I remember myself and supes mentioning that Dennis's assist numbers were out of whack back in SL, preseason and in regular minutes because he was playing with backups and scrubs the pro Teague posters said that should not matter, that a real point guard should make the rest of the players around them better. Interesting how that does not apply to Teague by the same very people.

[Admin]

Compare that with other guys I listed earlier as guys I'd rather have. If you can't see why Teague holds this team back with his shooting then you're either blind or incapable of looking at facts.

[YoungRondo22]

Once again Jeff Teague is the type of guy who can make an All-Star team if put in the right situation, nothing stands out about Teague as a PG besides his Speed,quickness and ballhandling.Ido think Teague could average 22&8 if he werent so mentally weak,but if you followed him during his Wake Forest days you wouldnt be suprised with his stretch of good play followed by a stretch of terrible play,he's been like that since college.

[macdaddy]

Compare that with other guys I listed earlier as guys I'd rather have. If you can't see why Teague holds this team back with his shooting then you're either blind or incapable of looking at facts.

Teague.png

Lawson.png

Thomas.png

Conley.png

Lowry.png

Dragic.png

Guys have a lot of bright green for areas that they rarely take shots from. It is alarming that Teague is so much worse AT the rim than everyone else but that kind of goes against your hypothesis that his shooting would look much worse if it wasn't for those shots.

In reality if you take away the other guy's shots at the rim their percentages are going to look like crap i would guess.

[Admin]

Guys have a lot of bright green for areas that they rarely take shots from. It is alarming that Teague is so much worse AT the rim than everyone else but that kind of goes against your hypothesis that his shooting would look much worse if it wasn't for those shots.

In reality if you take away the other guy's shots at the rim their percentages are going to look like crap i would guess.

Just because those guys are better at the rim than Teague doesn't mean that they aren't also better than him everywhere else. So I stand by my point that if it weren't for the shots in the paint Teague would just be awful.

Not sure what all you're looking at to arrive at this last point. Take a look at the combined 3pt %'s for Teague vs these other guys. These other guys are killing him from 3 and nearly the only green areas for Teague are straight in front of the basket in the paint and slightly beyond the foul line. I could go and look up all the data for shots that aren't considered close but I absolutely guarantee you that every one of these guys beats Teague just by looking at their shooting zones and I'm kinda tired of looking up the data. It's available on 82games.com though if you go to each player.

[YoungRondo22]

I still think he's a great PG and a good piece to have, maybe not "above average" as this is "the golden age of PG's" and so many teams have their star players in PG roles, so whats "average" these days? His facial expression though and body language sure seems lackluster, but I think thats just how he is as a dude. I dont think he actually is lackluster, but he's not an energizer either, which is a PG quality he doesnt have. Shame he didnt grow up in some Ghetto, learning to have toughness and a mean grim on your face. He looks a like a nice introverted intelligent dude, I wouldnt mind my daughter to show up with. But I think thats just how he is with all the pro's and cons.

Teague's from Indianapolis,Indiana I dont think that's the suburbs, He's from the ghetto, but just because your from the ghetto doesnt automatically make you tough, stereotyping at its finest,no offense taken tho.Because in all honesty the toughest not the best but the toughest basketball players Ive went against were white boys from the burbs, they NEVER back down in basketball.Its all about heart and mental toughness not where your from and Teague just seems to lack that. Edited February 28, 2014 by YoungRondo22

[Admin]

Once again Jeff Teague is the type of guy who can make an All-Star team if put in the right situation, nothing stands out about Teague as a PG besides his Speed,quickness and ballhandling.Ido think Teague could average 22&8 if he werent so mentally weak,but if you followed him during his Wake Forest days you wouldnt be suprised with his stretch of good play followed by a stretch of terrible play,he's been like that since college.

I agree he could put up some monster numbers if he weren't mentally weak. I don't think people realize how much his mind affects his play.

[Admin]

Teague's from Indiana I dont think that's the suburbs, He's from the ghetto, but just because your from the ghetto doesnt automatically make you tough, stereotyping at its finest,no offense taken tho.Because in all honesty the toughest not the best but the toughest basketball players Ive went against were white boys from the burbs, they NEVER back down in basketball.Its all about heart and mental toughness not where your from and Teague just seems to lack that.

Heck that just goes to the Larry Bird - Magic Johnson history. Bird was as tough as they come and Magic, while not a softy, was a pretty boy and not hard at all.

[YoungRondo22]

I agree he could put up some monster numbers if he weren't mentally weak. I don't think people realize how much his mind affects his play.

Yea, dude has serious jets in the open floor and excellent agility/quickness in the halfcourt, he can handle the ball and knows how to utilize his speed,its just he's mentally weak.Look at guys who are just as quick and as fast if not faster:John WallTy LawsonTony ParkerEric BledsoeAll these guys keep coming at you no matter what, theyKNOW you cant check them even if you stopped them 6 times in a row.Hell look at Russell Westbrook dudes been out of action for a minute, but came right back instantly with that aggressive basketball that he plays.Teague doesnt have that in him all the time, we see aggressive unstoppable Teague once every 10 games, Im not saying he could be on the level of Westbrook, but no reason why Teague shouldnt be considered a Top 10-15 PG, with his talent and athleticism.But once again if you watched him at Wake you already knew what to expect.

[AHF]

Kudos to Dolfan for carrying the ball on this thread and doing it with prettier shot distribution images than I know how to post!

Maybe it would be useful to break the PGs into tiers for those who think Teague is significantly better than average?

Just for comparison purposes, here are the ranks of Teague against one very flawed PG and one clearly subpar PG. Not much bold even with this slim competition.

Bold = Best among the 3

Italicized = Middle

Underlined = Worst

Brandon Jennings

PER 16.8 (27th)

TS% .491 (91st)

PP36 17.2 (39th)

WS/48 .088 (51st)

Assist % 34.6 (12th)

Turnover % 14.2 (58th)

A/TO Ratio 2.8

Rebound % 4.9 (77th)

Steal % 2.1 (31st)

Jeff Teague

PER 16.1 (35th)

TS% .517 (68th)

PP36 17.9 (36th)

WS/48 .075 (65th)

Assist % 35.7 (10th)

Turnover % 16.7 (83rd)

A/TO Ratio 2.2

Rebound % 4.6 (90th)

Steal % 1.9 (46th)

Brandon Knight

PER 16.7 (28th)

TS% .522 (63rd)

PP36 19.3 (20th)

WS/48 .062 (80th)

Assist % 29.2 (30th)

Turnover % 13.8 (52nd)

A/TO Ratio 1.9

Rebound % 6.2 (39th)

Steal % 1.5 (68th)

Edited February 28, 2014 by AHF

[Admin]

Kudos to Dolfan for carrying the ball on this thread and doing it with prettier shot distribution images than I know how to post!

Easy stuff just take a screenshot from Vorped.com and then attach it. Chrome also has a great extension called "Awesome Screenshot" that makes it easy. Some people aren't going to like Vorped though, judging by it's description.

Vorped helps you learn more about the game of basketball

[DS17Fanboy]

Teague's from Indianapolis,Indiana I dont think that's the suburbs, He's from the ghetto, but just because your from the ghetto doesnt automatically make you tough, stereotyping at its finest,no offense taken tho.

Because in all honesty the toughest not the best but the toughest basketball players Ive went against were white boys from the burbs, they NEVER back down in basketball.

Its all about heart and mental toughness not where your from and Teague just seems to lack that.

I dunno what his whereabouts where exactly inside Indianopolis but his father played college ball and Jeff himself majored in Religion. He doesnt seem a streetcat. Lets just put it that way.

To me he seems a nice guy and seems introverted and not a natural leader. I never said hes not tough. Without a toughness you dont make the NBA. I said he doesnt carry himself as a tough guy and I think people soon get a false impression for looking so timid and introverted.

The whiteboy toughness is just another thing. In the ghettos they value other type of ball, more the skills, dunking etc, and each little hustle isnt that high on the list to impress your mates. People grow up differently valueing and emphazising different things. Its the same in euro football, where all they do in immigrant neigberhoods is doing Panna tricks on concrete, and in the farming village youth clubs its all Hotseknots sliding over the grass.

But Im again not talking actual toughness, but rather the impression Teague gives to many people, lacking a mean Ghetto grim.

Imma not really all that srs from the get-go, but I think I have a point. Comming from a single Gypsy mom raized that came from a Gypsy hood that makes Compton look like a nice place, and me myself just a workingclass dude staying out of trouble, but still able to have a mean grim whenever its clever.

Srsly