What (exactly) we got for Joe Johnson

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Your idea of better is 50 wins. Seriously, while most who rail against Ferry legitimately talk about whether his strategy will lead to a championship or contender status you are the lone sole person who pines for the 09-10 Hawks as the high water mark of judging a GM's success. Of course it escapes you that that 50 win Hawks team suffered a historically bad beat down at the hands of the Magic in the playoffs but oh well, at least they got to 50 wins.

50 wins is not ELITE in this league. 50 wins is a paper accomplishment. While others legitimately discuss how to acquire ELITE players, the guys that win championships, you sit around pouting on your tablet that the GM did not go out of his way to construct a high salaried team of Joe Johnsons, Al Jeffersons and Monta Ellises to go out snag that 50 win brass ring even if such a team has zero chance of ever legitimately contending.

Your problem seems to be that you don't believe that Ferry is enough of a treadmill enthusiast for your liking. Instead of these periodical roster reloads you require your GM go all in on mediocrity. Commit to that 5K instead of just warming up on the damn thing. You're not concerned with wins in May and June, you're not concerned with a star walking through that door, nope, you're concerned with enjoying an 8 game win streak in the middle of January. Ahhhhhhh, now that's an accomplishment worth applauding.

I consistently talk about the GM building the best team possible. In my eyes, he's not even coming close to doing that.

My idea of "better" is being able to consistently challenge and beat teams who are at or above our level. To do that, we need talent at multiple positions on the court. And not mediocre or one dimensional talent. We need very good talent. And we need to be able to play multiple ways. We just can't run and gun our way to playoff success. We need to be able to do a variety of things in order to be a very good team.

While you focus on fifty wins as simply as a number, I say that fifty wins is a clear indication that you may be one or two players away from being a legit contender. The 2010 Hawks was a team that relied on their best players to get it done. They didn't have much of a bench, outside of Jamal, but their starting unit was one of the top 10 in the league that year. What they didn't have, was a guy who could slow down a certain center, or at least make that center work defensively in the post.

Of course I'm talking about Dwight Howard, and the lack of a big man who could really make him work. As good as Horford was becoming, he was not the type of big that could really stop or make Dwight work. Playoffs are mainly about matchups. And we matched up horribly with 2010 Orlando because we couldn't guard or make Dwight work. And when we tried to double him, their shooters made us pay dearly. And on our offensive end, the Hawks were reduced to taking jumper after jumper, because no one on the team dared to challenge Howard in the paint.

Here's your problem Mace. You have bought hook, line, and sinker into this "culture" talk. That the Hawks can get close to the promised land by not only being fiscally responsible, but by also finding "diamonds in the rough" that Bud can mold into very good players. And the GM has convinced most of you that if we can't get that franchise changing talent, that it is best for the Hawks to be "flexible", until we get that talent. You know what that equals?

LOWER LEVEL MEDIOCRITY

Your disdain for a player like Al Jefferson really shows that you care more about the money that he makes, and not the balance that he may bring to a team to really help it. You've said that he's not overpaid at 13 million a year. And the reason for that is that you KNOW that he does things that most big men in this league can't do . . and that's score in the post at a high level, and rebound at a high level.

My entire reasoning behind bringing a talent like Jefferson here, was to give the Hawks a different type of scoring option to team with all of the jumpshooters we have on the team, which includes Mr. Horford. And that would truly balance the Hawks attack on offense. When you don't have an elite player, the only way to beat elite teams is to attack them at all areas of the court. Jacking up 30+ threes in the playoffs isn't going to get it done.

I want the GM to balance this team out with the best talent he can get . . period.

[Buzzard]

You say longterm view.

Allright, what has Ferry done except get money that has changed the Dynamic that I spoke of... Has he done anything to help us bring in free agents that will make a difference? Has he done anything to improve our draft position?

Without changing either of those two factors, we're back on the treadmill again.

It's just like when we had Lenny.

We had a championship coach, but we couldn't give him enough talent to win. So every year, we watched Lenny take a team out and make them overachieve but in all actuality, they did not have the talent to get any farther than they did.

You act like we have had money to spend all three seasons he has been here. In his first season with money to spend is a very short term view on your part. You want a miracle; and the only miracles out there to be had last season was CP3 and D12.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

$21 million per season for Johnson vs $19 million per year for Millsap, Korver and Carroll.

I fail to see the downside in this.

What about 19 Million for Lou Williams, Brand, Korver, and every draft pick since Joe?

It's easy to do when you pick and choose.

However, we can just as easily say... 20 Million for Josh and Marvin = Millsap, Korver, and Carroll.

[Diesel]

You act like we have had money to spend all three seasons he has been here. In his first season with money to spend is a very short term view on your part. You want a miracle; and the only miracles out there to be had last season was CP3 and D12.

Nobody said anything about a Miracle. Nobody said anything about CP3 AND D12. As a matter of fact, the failure to bring in CP3 or D12 shows where we are. We can throw the most money at a free agent and still not entice them to come.

My question is what have we done to change that dynamic?

Your answer obviously is we have more money to throw....

This offseason, we have a chance to make a difference. We can draft our future. Let's watch and see where we go with this.

[Duff_Man]

What about 19 Million for Lou Williams, Brand, Korver, and every draft pick since Joe?

It's easy to do when you pick and choose.

However, we can just as easily say... 20 Million for Josh and Marvin = Millsap, Korver, and Carroll.

He is being paid an irresponsible amount of money is my point.

[Admin]

What about 19 Million for Lou Williams, Brand, Korver, and every draft pick since Joe?

Lou - 5.2

Brand - 4

Korver - 6.7

Jenkins - 1.2

Schröder - 1.3

Scott & Muscala - ~1

Total - 19.4 million

You're making the point here @Diesel. We had 7 guys here for less than what it cost for Joe (or Smoove / Marvin)

[Guest]

Nobody said anything about a Miracle. Nobody said anything about CP3 AND D12. As a matter of fact, the failure to bring in CP3 or D12 shows where we are. We can throw the most money at a free agent and still not entice them to come.

My question is what have we done to change that dynamic?

Your answer obviously is we have more money to throw....

This offseason, we have a chance to make a difference. We can draft our future. Let's watch and see where we go with this.

It's not a failure when every other team had the same amount of money as we did. If the Hawks were offering D12 more than Houston but he took less that would be a concern. CP3 took the extra year and more money from LAC. The failure would have been not even being in position of offer the contracts in the first place had Joe been not traded.

We can only have a chance to make a difference if you are in a position to do so in the first place.

Edited June 9, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[Diesel]

Lou - 5.2

Brand - 4

Korver - 6.7

Jenkins - 1.2

Schröder - 1.3

Scott & Muscala - ~1

Total - 19.4 million

You're making the point here @Diesel. We had 7 guys here for less than what it cost for Joe (or Smoove / Marvin)

But those 7 amount to very little in comparison. I would say that 6 out of the 7 are meaningless.

Honestly, Muscala or Bebe will be the odd man out again this year if Horf comes back.

I could have take out Korver and added in the foriegn contingency too.

My point is we're quick to talk about the great players we had and really the best players we have could have been dealt for just by dropping Marvin and Smoove (as we did).

[Buzzard]

Nobody said anything about a Miracle. Nobody said anything about CP3 AND D12. As a matter of fact, the failure to bring in CP3 or D12 shows where we are. We can throw the most money at a free agent and still not entice them to come.

My question is what have we done to change that dynamic?

Your answer obviously is we have more money to throw....

This offseason, we have a chance to make a difference. We can draft our future. Let's watch and see where we go with this.

But you are already crying wolf before we even get to this draft and free agent period.

[Diesel]

It's not a failure when every other team had the same amount of money as we did. If the Hawks were offering D12 more than Houston but he took less that would be a concern. CP3 took the extra year and more money from LAC. The failure would have been not even being in position of offer the contracts in the first place had Joe been not traded.

We can only have a chance to make a difference if you are in a position to do so in the first place.

No... It's failure. We have neither player. It's the same as if we didn't have the money.

[Buzzard]

No... It's failure. We have neither player. It's the same as if we didn't have the money.

True 100% failure would have been not signing Milsap and not being able to keep Korver.

And despite being the two Gems of last seasons market, D12 got Houston a 1st round exit ( same as the season before ) and CP3 and Doc got the Clipps a 2nd round exit ( one round better than the season before ).

Edited June 9, 2014 by Buzzard

[Admin]

But those 7 amount to very little in comparison. I would say that 6 out of the 7 are meaningless.

Honestly, Muscala or Bebe will be the odd man out again this year if Horf comes back.

I could have take out Korver and added in the foriegn contingency too.

My point is we're quick to talk about the great players we had and really the best players we have could have been dealt for just by dropping Marvin and Smoove (as we did).

False. You're missing the key here Diesel. Those guys comprise very tradeable contracts and young assets that can be used to get players or picks. 21 million to JJ sure wasn't gonna do that. Neither was 13 to Smoove or 8 to Marvin.

[Diesel]

False. You're missing the key here Diesel. Those guys comprise very tradeable contracts and young assets that can be used to get players or picks. 21 million to JJ sure wasn't gonna do that. Neither was 13 to Smoove or 8 to Marvin.

Like I said, 1 has value.

Brand, Lou, Jenkins = no value.

Bebe, Muscala and Dennis = Unknown value.

Korover = value to the right team.

However, what if we had kept Joe... traded Smoove and Marvin for Sap, Korver, and DMC. Wouldn't we have been even better off?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Lou - 5.2

Brand - 4

Korver - 6.7

Jenkins - 1.2

Schröder - 1.3

Scott & Muscala - ~1

Total - 19.4 million

You're making the point here @Diesel. We had 7 guys here for less than what it cost for Joe (or Smoove / Marvin)

Honestly Dol, I'd trade that entire lot of players for JJ. Of that group, only Korver is giving us positive results.

Give me JJ .. Select Tim Hardaway Jr instead of Bebe .. and keep Ivan .. to add with Horford, Millsap, Teague, and Carroll.. and we'd be better off with that squad than the one we have now.

[Admin]

Like I said, 1 has value.

Brand, Lou, Jenkins = no value.

Bebe, Muscala and Dennis = Unknown value.

Korover = value to the right team.

However, what if we had kept Joe... traded Smoove and Marvin for Sap, Korver, and DMC. Wouldn't we have been even better off?

No, we wouldn't have been better off in the grand scheme. We have multiple very tradeable assets that we can use now to acquire a young talent.

[Admin]

Honestly Dol, I'd trade that entire lot of players for JJ. Of that group, only Korver is giving us positive results.

Give me JJ .. Select Tim Hardaway Jr instead of Bebe .. and keep Ivan .. to add with Horford, Millsap, Teague, and Carroll.. and we'd be better off with that squad than the one we have now.

For JJ the player sure, but not JJ the 120 million dollar albatross. I have zero desire to be locked into that long term contract as he ages. We may not get anyone of his level over the next 4 years but I sure like having the opportunity to.

[Guest]

However, what if we had kept Joe... traded Smoove and Marvin for Sap, Korver, and DMC. Wouldn't we have been even better off?

How do you propose that would have happened?

We traded Marvin for Devin straight up. Sure we could have worked a trade for Marvin for Millsap and DMC which would also include us including something/someone else to make salaries work but UTAH also had to be interested in trading Sap and DMC.

That leaves Josh, Chi didn't want him - how do we get Korver from Chicago. Chicago was looking to dump salary to get under the luxury tax hence we got KK from the JJ trade exception.

Edited June 9, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[Guest]

We are trying to get off the proverbial treadmill but it's ok to keep JJ and his $21/$23/$24 million as he gets older and expected to be the Batman when clearly he isn't.

[Admin]

How do you propose that would have happened?

We traded Marvin for Devin straight up. Sure we could have worked a trade for Marvin for Millsap and DMC which would also include us including something/someone else to make salaries work but UTAH also had to be interested in trading Sap and DMC.

That leaves Josh, Chi didn't want him - how do we get Korver from Chicago. Chicago was looking to dump salary to get under the luxury tax hence we got KK from the JJ trade exception.

I assume he meant hypothetically and in a fantasy salary swap type of way.

[Diesel]

How do you propose that would have happened?

We traded Marvin for Devin straight up. Sure we could have worked a trade for Marvin for Millsap and DMC which would also include us including something/someone else to make salaries work but UTAH also had to be interested in trading Sap and DMC.

That leaves Josh, Chi didn't want him - how do we get Korver from Chicago. Chicago was looking to dump salary to get under the luxury tax hence we got KK from the JJ trade exception.

Looking at the whole matter, Utah would have taken Hinrich for Korver.. Marvin for Devin... and Smoove for Sap/DMC if you want to separate the assets. The bottom line is that we could have had those guys.