Horford Is Best At Center!

[sillent]

How can you back up this statement when Horford has played very little PF in the nba?   3 coaches and 3 gms so far disagree that Horford should be at PF.

Because we do/have made switches or tried different match ups & in most cases including Bosh hitting the game winner on Horford he has come up short with getting the stop on high profile power fowards

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I answered your question, it's right there in the very first text block.  The real question here is why you believe that Horford and Sap aren't already one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league? 

 

See, you like to believe that your whole argument exists in a vacuum while continuing to ignore Paul Millsap.  It's your whole schtick, downplay contributions made by current Hawks, overplay contributions made by players you like.  See by creating a false narrative you believe that you can legitimately make the argument that Jefferson-Horf duo is vastly superior to Horf-Sap when you have no basis for this besides tired old hypotheticals.

You didn't answer the question. Your statement still focuses on Jefferson, and not why the duo of Jefferson + Horford wouldn't work.

The funny thing is that the duo of Jefferson + Millsap DID work in Utah. They were the main reasons why Utah was mediocre, and not terrible. So why wouldnt a Jefferson + Horford duo work, with better fringe pieces around them in Atlanta, than what Millsap and Jefferson had around them in Utah? Plus FAR better coaching in Atlanta.

[sillent]

You didn't answer the question. Your statement still focuses on Jefferson, and not why the duo of Jefferson + Horford wouldn't work.

The funny thing is that the duo of Jefferson + Millsap DID work in Utah. They were the main reasons why Utah was mediocre, and not terrible. So why wouldnt a Jefferson + Horford duo work, with better fringe pieces around them in Atlanta, than what Millsap and Jefferson had around them in Utah? Plus FAR better coaching in Atlanta.

So being mediocre & not terrible works for you. I just think Horford & Millsap are more versatile and with our offense they'll both be shooting 3's in Bud's system along with Payne. AL Jefferson not so much. It's just a system thing no offense to Jefferson but it'll be hard to stop a team that can completely spread the floor and be dangerous from literally everywhere on the court

[tbhawksfan]

I hate the thought of our PF/C combo shooting threes. We've been terrible at rebounding for years

Get a center on the Hawks.

[GrimeyKidd]

BAM! KORVER HITS IT

[Diesel]

I answered your question, it's right there in the very first text block.  The real question here is why you believe that Horford and Sap aren't already one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league? 

 

See, you like to believe that your whole argument exists in a vacuum while continuing to ignore Paul Millsap.  It's your whole schtick, downplay contributions made by current Hawks, overplay contributions made by players you like.  See by creating a false narrative you believe that you can legitimately make the argument that Jefferson-Horf duo is vastly superior to Horf-Sap when you have no basis for this besides tired old hypotheticals.

 

This is really entertaining.   However, I had to go back and re-read this thread and search for this "very first text block" before we get to your begging the question...

 

So the thread necromancer that I am dug it up....So here's where Mace enters:

 

 

 

Carlos Boozer anchored the 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 2nd ranked defenses in the league with his 99 (7th in league), 95 (2nd in the league), 100 (19th in the league) and 98 (9th in league) defensive rating all better than anything Jefferson has managed while being one of the best defensive rebounders league-wide and a low post threat that could create his own shot.  I don't know how with over 4 years of evidence to the contrary that this woefully incorrect reputation and outright lie that he is not a good defender gets perpetuated so much so that his own coach would bench him during 4th quarters and it absolutely sickens me that he was an amnesty victim so that he can be replaced with some bench energy guy, some rookie Euro shooter and a rookie tweener and it further sickens me that with so many teams with cap space and the need for a defensive anchor and low post scorer that all it took was 3 million for the Lakers to win the auction.

 

Just to recap for the FNG that just enter the thread... the question that Northcyde asked was:

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league?

 

 

Needless to say that this question went unanswered by Mace... unless of course, Macecase = Silent?

 

Anyway... I am interested in Northcyde's question too becuase it stands to reason that if Horf is a face up High post man... and  Jefferson is a back to the basket low post man... they would be an awesome combination.  Especially with Korver outside dropping treys...

Defensively, we play a team defense that would be enhanced by Jeff's rebounding.

 

The reason that this is relevant is because I can see the same thing with an Al-Monroe frontcourt.  And Monroe has many of the strengths and supposed weaknesses as Jefferson  The thing is that you have to trust that your coach can coach you through these issues.

Neither Mace nor his alter ego Silent has attempted to attack Bud's credentials as a coach and I think that's where the argument ends.  The truth is that many of us believe that Bud could coach these guys to prominence.  Instead of making that admission, we got talk about Boozer and others who are not a part of this conversation.

 

[Guest]

Buds offense is not a 'dump it in the post offense' which is what Jefferson excels at. In the Greg Monroe thread the draft expre video that was posted said Monroe gets most of his offense from face up jumpers (unless I'm misremembering).

[MaceCase]

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league?   

 

 

 

 

So I'm the one being tangential discussing how most of the "line for line" you used to defend Jefferson is bunk (it has to be bunk because you seem to be completely taken aback that Boozer looks great by the same measures) yet you're not by wanting to use this as a referendum for why people weren't confident that a rookie coach could undo 9 years worth of evidence against a player instead.....

 

 

 

This is really entertaining.   However, I had to go back and re-read this thread and search for this "very first text block" before we get to your begging the question...

 

You're not very good at anything are you?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So being mediocre & not terrible works for you. I just think Horford & Millsap are more versatile and with our offense they'll both be shooting 3's in Bud's system along with Payne. AL Jefferson not so much. It's just a system thing no offense to Jefferson but it'll be hard to stop a team that can completely spread the floor and be dangerous from literally everywhere on the court

 

No sir.  Being mediocre doesn't work for me.  

 

I'm just saying that when Jefferson and Millsap were the leaders in Utah, it was NOT their fault that the team couldn't get out of the 36 to 44 win zone.   Those guys played their hearts out in Utah.  Keep in mind that in Jefferson's 1st year in Utah, the Deron Williams trade happened, along with Sloan quitting on the team.   When Sloan quit, the Jazz was 31 - 23.  But when you lose your All-Star PG, and a Hall of Fame coach and they never get replaced in the next two years, you get what you get in Utah.

 

So fast forward to Atlanta.  People keep talking about "Bud's system".   Bud actually changed his system a little, when Horford went down.  He and the GM felt that they needed to go to a "5-Out" offensive attack.   And the reason for that is because they really didn't have anyone on the team who could work in the paint and get them easy looks in the post.   That's when the Hawks got 3-ball happy.

 

I don't think Bud wanted to coach the team like that, but he felt that was the only way we could compete.   We lost a lot of games playing that way too.  I think people tend to forget that.

 

Being able to score from anywhere on the floor is a good thing.   Being able to give it to a guy who can score 60% of the time from 10 feet and in . . and take 60% of his shots from that area . . is a great thing.

 

Let the guards and wings gun away from the outside.   Let the big men actually play like big men.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Buds offense is not a 'dump it in the post offense' which is what Jefferson excels at. In the Greg Monroe thread the draft expre video that was posted said Monroe gets most of his offense from face up jumpers (unless I'm misremembering).

 

Miss JayBird . . . but the question remains again . . . do you think that Bud could get the most out of a Jefferson - Horford duo, if he had Jefferson?

 

The problem with the Hawks offense is that with all of the options that we do have offensively, the one thing we really can't do, is dump it in the post.   Horford is a very good post scorer, if he's not facing anyone with length.  But that's not his game.   He'll rather shoot a face up jumper.

 

So as Diesel said . .

 

- if the Hawks had a PG who could slash to the hole

- plus a PF/C who could literally kill a team with 18 foot jumpers

- plus a G/F who is the best spot up 3 point shooter in the game

- plus a C who is an elite post scorer

 

 . . . you don't think that Bud could develop an offensive system that could coach the hell out of that?

 

During this entire 7 year playoff run, we have NEVER been a balanced offensive team.   We can only play one way . . . shoot a lot of jumpers.   The reason why bigger frontlines have beaten us in the playoffs, is because we don't make them work on the defensive end.   We're too easy to guard.

[Guest]

Well of course he would get the most out of it. Seeing what he accomplished without Horford.

Is that the debate?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Well of course he would get the most out of it. Seeing what he accomplished without Horford.

Is that the debate?

No ma'am.

To me, the debate is for the Hawks to not be afraid to add a very good player to the team, even if he doesn't seem to fit "the system".

If they fill a need or multiple things that the team needs, you find a way to maximize what he does well, and mesh that within the framework of "the system".

Too many times, we may see how a player plays somewhere else, and refuse to believe that he can be an asset to us ... even if we know that he fills glaring needs that the team needs.

It's like the Carmelo Anthony debate some were having on here. If people believe that Bud is an excellent coach ( which most of us do ), then you have to believe that he could maximize the talent of a Carmelo Anthony.

And in my mind, the same thing goes for Jefferson ... or even a guy like Stephenson.

It is what it is though.

[Guest]

We added Millsap as the 'good' player. We had no idea how he would fit the system. They filled a need after letting Josh walk.

Millsap is an asset for us.

[Vol4ever]

The problem was/is that DF and the ASG will not pay 14 mil for anybody.  

[Diesel]

Buds offense is not a 'dump it in the post offense' which is what Jefferson excels at. In the Greg Monroe thread the draft expre video that was posted said Monroe gets most of his offense from face up jumpers (unless I'm misremembering).

 

I really don't think we know what Bud's offense is.  I would venture to say that Bud's offense is based on what players he has... and that's what makes him a good coach.  When we started off, we were a solid PNR team.  As we continued we became a guard dominant team with three point shooters everywhere.  I really don't think what we saw against Indy was representative of what Bud intended for this team.

[Guest]

I really don't think we know what Bud's offense is. I would venture to say that Bud's offense is based on what players he has... and that's what makes him a good coach. When we started off, we were a solid PNR team. As we continued we became a guard dominant team with three point shooters everywhere. I really don't think what we saw against Indy was representative of what Bud intended for this team.

That I can agree with.

[Guest]

The problem was/is that DF and the ASG will not pay 14 mil for anybody.

They will not pay $14 million for 'Just Anybody'

Who was on the market to give $14 million to that was worth it and they declined to do so?

Edited July 31, 2014 by JayBirdHawk

[ag82]

Horf has been quoted wanting to play PF. I want the Hawks to have more inside game on O and D. Get a starting C

When was the most recent time? Bud has clearly stated that pf and c are basically interchangeable in this offense. Maybe that's why Al hasn't mentioned wanting to play PF for a while.

And I don't see any reason Al/Millsap can't be one of the most formidable front courts in the NBA.

What teams with legit old school style centers are we afraid of??

[sillent]

This is really entertaining.   However, I had to go back and re-read this thread and search for this "very first text block" before we get to your begging the question...

 

So the thread necromancer that I am dug it up....So here's where Mace enters:

 

 

Just to recap for the FNG that just enter the thread... the question that Northcyde asked was:

 

 

Needless to say that this question went unanswered by Mace... unless of course, Macecase = Silent?

 

Anyway... I am interested in Northcyde's question too becuase it stands to reason that if Horf is a face up High post man... and  Jefferson is a back to the basket low post man... they would be an awesome combination.  Especially with Korver outside dropping treys...

Defensively, we play a team defense that would be enhanced by Jeff's rebounding.

 

The reason that this is relevant is because I can see the same thing with an Al-Monroe frontcourt.  And Monroe has many of the strengths and supposed weaknesses as Jefferson  The thing is that you have to trust that your coach can coach you through these issues.

Neither Mace nor his alter ego Silent has attempted to attack Bud's credentials as a coach and I think that's where the argument ends.  The truth is that many of us believe that Bud could coach these guys to prominence.  Instead of making that admission, we got talk about Boozer and others who are not a part of this conversation.

 

Hilarious that two people have to be the same to have ideas that aren't those of the average... And it's Sillent!! You'll see it later down the road so remember it so you can tell your friends I knew him he was a Hawks Squawker!!!

[sillent]

No sir.  Being mediocre doesn't work for me.  

 

I'm just saying that when Jefferson and Millsap were the leaders in Utah, it was NOT their fault that the team couldn't get out of the 36 to 44 win zone.   Those guys played their hearts out in Utah.  Keep in mind that in Jefferson's 1st year in Utah, the Deron Williams trade happened, along with Sloan quitting on the team.   When Sloan quit, the Jazz was 31 - 23.  But when you lose your All-Star PG, and a Hall of Fame coach and they never get replaced in the next two years, you get what you get in Utah.

 

So fast forward to Atlanta.  People keep talking about "Bud's system".   Bud actually changed his system a little, when Horford went down.  He and the GM felt that they needed to go to a "5-Out" offensive attack.   And the reason for that is because they really didn't have anyone on the team who could work in the paint and get them easy looks in the post.   That's when the Hawks got 3-ball happy.

 

I don't think Bud wanted to coach the team like that, but he felt that was the only way we could compete.   We lost a lot of games playing that way too.  I think people tend to forget that.

 

Being able to score from anywhere on the floor is a good thing.   Being able to give it to a guy who can score 60% of the time from 10 feet and in . . and take 60% of his shots from that area . . is a great thing.

 

Let the guards and wings gun away from the outside.   Let the big men actually play like big men.

I agree but I also believe Horford and Millsap are a better Defensive combo because they can guard as far as the wing than Horford and Jefferson or Monroe. You said let the big men be big men and the one thing big men should do is defend. In this NBA defending no longer just considers protecting the paint just ask Hibbert or try guarding Love by just staying in the paint. Plenty big men in the league have or come with expanded game now of days.