Horford Is Best At Center!

[RedDawg#8]

Ive always agreed with the point the OP is making about Al. I mean, the league has changed yal. There arent really any dominate centers in the game since Shaq retired and Dwight became a diva. Andrew Bynum was supposed to be the next best thing and look at him, same story with Hibbert he has tools but is so inconsistent. You dont need a dominate 7'0 footer to win anymore. Statistically Al is right there with all of the top centers. The ones that score more than him dont have his rebounding numbers, the ones that out rebound him dont have his scoring numbers. If Dwight is the best the league has to offer we are in good shape as he will never make it out of the western playoff bracket.

The game is not about Power Forwards and Centers anymore its about Big Men who can space the floor, defend other bigs and/or rebound. I wish Millsap was a couple inches taller too so that we could switch he and Al more frequently based on defensive matchup, but skillwise they are a great fit together.

I think we overrate the center position sometimes. Al is a match up nightmare for most teams year in and year out and its no mistake that since he has donned a Hawks uni we have never missed the playoffs. He is synonymous with our current regimes success. We have only been a contender since we picked him #3 overall in 2007 and folks thats no mistake or coincidence

[NBASupes]

This thread is blasphemous and idiotic. Bosh used to kill Smoove, not Horford in Toronto. Horf has always been a better PF than C especially on defense where he doesn't take as much abuse in the paint. One star thread. 

[NBASupes]

Where is this miraculous center that would force us to move Horror to Power Forward. He would have to be great at defense like Josh to make up for Horfords average d which wouldn't make Greg Monroe a good fit but Andre Drummond Would be perfect (but not available). AL Jefferson doesn't play d neither does DeMarcus Cousins. Who is this center that would be good enough to take away Millsap's starting position and move Al Horford to power forward??

You are a damn idiot. Since when has Horford D been just average. He is one of the most versatile big defenders in the NBA. I will Dolfan had neg rep on. I would neg you to death. 

Edited July 29, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Carlos Boozer anchored the 1st, 2nd, 6th, and 2nd ranked defenses in the league with his 99 (7th in league), 95 (2nd in the league), 100 (19th in the league) and 98 (9th in league) defensive rating all better than anything Jefferson has managed while being one of the best defensive rebounders league-wide and a low post threat that could create his own shot.  I don't know how with over 4 years of evidence to the contrary that this woefully incorrect reputation and outright lie that he is not a good defender gets perpetuated so much so that his own coach would bench him during 4th quarters and it absolutely sickens me that he was an amnesty victim so that he can be replaced with some bench energy guy, some rookie Euro shooter and a rookie tweener and it further sickens me that with so many teams with cap space and the need for a defensive anchor and low post scorer that all it took was 3 million for the Lakers to win the auction.

 

 

Or maybe, and just maybe, we should not put so much reliance on the numbers, so much so that we perhaps make the rather misinformed argument that Boozer, despite his reputation as a poor defender, was indeed responsible for the Bulls defensive turnaround (after all, they were no better than 11th overall without him with the exact same core, right?) and instead recognize that systems are very effective in emphasizing and de-emphasizing the strengths and weaknesses of players without having to exist solely due to the talents and abilities of certain individuals.

 

But hey, I sure do love reading North wax poetic about how Jefferson was the missing link thanks to circular reasoning that an outlier year could have been so easily predicted and further loosely attributing team success solely on a single player's back in addition to dismissing a reputation earned and perpetuated over a 9 year career as nothing more than "lies".  

 

Wow . . . so now Carlos Boozer is the "anchor" of the Bulls . . and not the reigning Defensive Player of the Year - Joakim Noah?   Come on Mace.  You're slipping man.  

 

LOL . . and then you go on and on about Carlos Boozer, and how the numbers "fudge the truth", like you're making a valid point?   

The one thing that Al Jefferson has always been criticized for, was his defense on the pick and roll.  It has been terrible over the years.  But a huge part of that had to do with the absolutely terrible defensive guards that he's played with.   People got mad at Al because he couldn't cover up their defensive ineptness. 

 

So he goes to Charlotte, and a coach finally puts the responsibility on his guards to fight through the PnR, while also keeping Al closer to the basket to defend both the rolling big man and the penetrating guard.  And that same coach, along with Patrick Ewing, also challenged Jefferson to NOT be a defensive liability.  And look what happens.  

 

The so-called defensive liability becomes a defensive strength . . . all because the coach put him in a position to succeed defensively . . and because Jefferson believed HIMSELF that he could become a defensive strength.

 

So here's what I don't get from you, and everyone else who continue to down guys like Jefferson, Stevenson, or any other good player the Hawks flat out missed out on.  

 

Why don't YOU believe that Coach Bud could get the most out of a guy like Jefferson?   Why don't YOU believe that Bud couldn't have found a way to turn a Jefferson - Horford lineup into the most formidable frontcourt duo in the league?

 

I mean, if you don't believe that Bud couldn't have gotten the most out of that duo, it means that Steve Clifford is the better coach.  Do you believe that?

 

The problem with this organization right now is NOT the coach . . . it's the GM and/or ownership.   He cannot continue to give Bud marginally talented players to work with, and not be called out on that.  He cannot continue to have 10+ million in cap space, and not make the right roster moves to dramatically improve this team.

 

It is unbelievable . . . un-freaking-believable . . . that the Charlotte Bobcats have made 2 major moves in 2 years that could set them up to make a legit run at a Southeast Division title, and a possible trip to the Eastern Conference Finals, by adding Jefferson and Stephenson . . while we're hoping that Thabo Sefolosha and Kent Bazemore will help get us to the same point.

 

All I ask of the GM is to build the team right.  BUILD THE DAMN THING RIGHT !!!  

 

After this season, you fans will be FORCED to hold the GMs feet to the fire . . . or I'll be forced to give him props for doing things right.   It won't be ANY in-between.   

 

I hope he's right, and I'm wrong . . because I'm tired of giving Little League claps for teams who work hard, but aren't talented enough to get out of the 1st round, let alone the 2nd round.

[LucastheThird]

You are a damn idiot. Since when has Horford D been just average. He is one of the most versatile big defenders in the NBA. I will Dolfan had neg rep on. I would neg you to death. 

I actually agreee with you Supes, but this is coming close to a personal attack don't you think?

[macdaddy]

This thread is blasphemous and idiotic. Bosh used to kill Smoove, not Horford in Toronto. Horf has always been a better PF than C especially on defense where he doesn't take as much abuse in the paint. One star thread. 

How can you back up this statement when Horford has played very little PF in the nba?   3 coaches and 3 gms so far disagree that Horford should be at PF.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

How can you back up this statement when Horford has played very little PF in the nba?   3 coaches and 3 gms so far disagree that Horford should be at PF.

 

Here have been our centers since 2007 . . . outside of Horford

 

- Zaza Pachulia

- Lorenzen Wright ( RIP )

- Solomon Jones

- Randolph Morris

- Jason Collins

- Hilton Armstrong

- Etan Thomas

- Erick Dampier

- Ivan Johnson ( when Horford was hurt )

- Johan Petro

- Gustavo Ayón

- Elton Brand

- Mike Muscala

- Pero Antić ( when Horford was hurt )

 

Look at that list of players.   Look at it.  

 

I mean, seriously?   The fact that Zaza is by far and away the best center on that list, should scare the hell out of everybody . . . and let everyone know just how little of a priority acquiring a decent big man has been for this team.   And if this trend continues, we're going to lose Horford in 2 seasons, unless he and Millsap can really become a special frontcourt tandem.

[macdaddy]

Here have been our centers since 2007 . . . outside of Horford

 

- Zaza Pachulia

- Lorenzen Wright ( RIP )

- Solomon Jones

- Randolph Morris

- Jason Collins

- Hilton Armstrong

- Etan Thomas

- Erick Dampier

- Ivan Johnson ( when Horford was hurt )

- Johan Petro

- Gustavo Ayón

- Elton Brand

- Mike Muscala

- Pero Antić ( when Horford was hurt )

 

Look at that list of players.   Look at it.  

 

I mean, seriously?   The fact that Zaza is by far and away the best center on that list, should scare the hell out of everybody . . . and let everyone know just how little of a priority acquiring a decent big man has been for this team.   And if this trend continues, we're going to lose Horford in 2 seasons, unless he and Millsap can really become a special frontcourt tandem.

 

Isn't that exactly the point.   Acquiring a center has only been a priority for a few posters on here and not an entire decade of Hawks coaches, gms and scouts.   Why is that?  They must be idiots.   

 

Or could it be that smoove/horford and now millsap/horford is a better 4/5 than any Horford/available center.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Isn't that exactly the point.   Acquiring a center has only been a priority for a few posters on here and not an entire decade of Hawks coaches, gms and scouts.   Why is that?  They must be idiots.   

 

Or could it be that smoove/horford and now millsap/horford is a better 4/5 than any Horford/available center.

 

Well . . . we haven't gotten to an Eastern Conference Finals since the franchise has been in Atlanta.   11 of the 15 teams in the East have gone to the Eastern Conference Finals since 1999.

 

So if you want to call the GM, coaches, and ownership idiots since 1999 . . . then so be it.

 

Going with essentially 2 good PFs has gotten us into the mediocre Twilight Zone that we're now in.   Why keep repeating the same mode of NBA insanity, when it obviously hasn't worked for us?

 

It's always been my assessment that Horford's true potential is being held back, because he's being forced to play against bigger guys, instead of against guys his size or smaller.

[macdaddy]

Well . . . we haven't gotten to an Eastern Conference Finals since the franchise has been in Atlanta.   11 of the 15 teams in the East have gone to the Eastern Conference Finals since 1999.

 

So if you want to call the GM, coaches, and ownership idiots since 1999 . . . then so be it.

 

Going with essentially 2 good PFs has gotten us into the mediocre Twilight Zone that we're now in.   Why keep repeating the same mode of NBA insanity, when it obviously hasn't worked for us?

 

It's always been my assessment that Horford's true potential is being held back, because he's being forced to play against bigger guys, instead of against guys his size or smaller.

 

Obviously this is an agree to disagree situation but hanging our lack of ECF on playing Horford at center when he was elected to all star games as a center seems like a stretch to me.   

[tbhawksfan]

Horf has been quoted wanting to play PF. I want the Hawks to have more inside game on O and D. Get a starting C

[MaceCase]

Wow . . . so now Carlos Boozer is the "anchor" of the Bulls . . and not the reigning Defensive Player of the Year - Joakim Noah?   Come on Mace.  You're slipping man.  

 

No, North, I just destroyed the exact arguments you used for Jefferson being a "defensive anchor" for the Bobcats.  You continuously cite and attribute Charlotte's defensive improvement to Jefferson......well Noah was a Bull for 3 seasons before Boozer got there yet they were never better than 11th.  Boozer arrives and BAM! #1 in the league therefore Boozer is actually the better defender and responsible for the Bulls being good defensively, right?  I'm only using Northcyde logic here, not logic logic but Northcyde logic.  As Boozer's defensive rating will also attest he must be responsible for the Bulls' defensive turnaround given that he has smoked even Jefferson's career best DRTG of which you are so quick to use as proof for why the Bobcats improved to 4th so by Northcyde logic it's irrefutable that Boozer's sub-100 DRTG is the reason why the Bulls are good defensively.

 

 You going on and on thinking that one little tweak to the team defense as in other players other than Jefferson as you stated are adjusting their games to help him somehow further proves that Jefferson is good defensively is actually the comical part.  This is the point that I made that you so clearly missed: Boozer and Jefferson are still poor defenders, them being on better team schemes that hide their deficiencies and make them less of a liability does not change the fact that they are still poor defenders.

 

4 years in Chicago hasn't changed this for Booz but one season in Charlotte has somehow eliminated all doubts about Jefferson for North.  I'd say you're slipping too but you never had solid footing to begin with.

[Plainview1981]

No offense to anybody wanting to put Al at the 4 but I've watched Al play at both positions and honestly he dominates more at the 5 than 4. He's been eating Roy Hibbert alive for years, plays good against Noah and holds his own against the rest of the centers of the league with one main exception being his cryptonite and that was "Dwight Howard"  who is the same freakin height give or take an inch as Horford.

 

On the other hand Bosh repeatedly abused Horford even in his Raptor days at the Poward Forward position, Josh Smith was better on David West than Horford and the same may be said for Paul. Amare Stat use to abuse Horford. Carlos Boozer even had his good showings against Horford. Lamarcus Aldridge, Kevin Love. Kevin Garnett, Dirk, Tim Duncan,Zach Randolph, Serge Ibaka and more have given Horford fits at times. Why would we want to put him in this position? Blake Griffin would abuse him but he actually does pretty decent on Deandre Jordan.

 

He has been able to make the Allstar team twice because he played the center position. He would not even have come close or been mentioned during those times playing power forward their were too many out there better than him.

 

All of this he needs to be a power forword crap is ludacris when you pay attention to how he actually matches up. Our Gm's have noticed this which is why none have been in a hurry to make Al Horford our "Power Forward" but most of us are so caught up on tradition we're blind to the fact that Al takes full advantage at the center position opposed to the power forward position. He's quicker than most of the opposing centers which allows him to dribble full court to make a play. He has a nice outside stroke which brings them away from their rim protecting area and out of their comfort zone. Most of the power forwards in the league don't have a problem sticking with him. Why would we want to put Horford at a disadvantage because it looks good on paper??? It sounds good until you actually pay attention to the facts that switching his position would diminish his status and productivity.

 

Horford is a top five center in this league behind Dwight, (Maybe Mark Gasol/Noah) but you put him at power forward he'd be lucky to make top 20. Josh's attitude and bbiq at times isn't the only reason he's never made the allstar team. It's easy not to make it when it's so much competition. Congrats to Paul Millsap for not being Josh but and making it but even his status continues to be underated after carrying a team because it's too much competition!!!

 

Sometimes it's good to just shut up and play ball because if it wasn't for him playing the center position we might've still been struggling to find an official allstar pass Joe...

 

Either way... It's not really us that you have to convince, is it?

 

Al is the one saying that he does not want to play center.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

No, North, I just destroyed the exact arguments you used for Jefferson being a "defensive anchor" for the Bobcats.  You continuously cite and attribute Charlotte's defensive improvement to Jefferson......well Noah was a Bull for 3 seasons before Boozer got there yet they were never better than 11th.  Boozer arrives and BAM! #1 in the league therefore Boozer is actually the better defender and responsible for the Bulls being good defensively, right?  I'm only using Northcyde logic here, not logic logic but Northcyde logic.  As Boozer's defensive rating will also attest he must be responsible for the Bulls' defensive turnaround given that he has smoked even Jefferson's career best DRTG of which you are so quick to use as proof for why the Bobcats improved to 4th so by Northcyde logic it's irrefutable that Boozer's sub-100 DRTG is the reason why the Bulls are good defensively.

 

 You going on and on thinking that one little tweak to the team defense as in other players other than Jefferson as you stated are adjusting their games to help him somehow further proves that Jefferson is good defensively is actually the comical part.  This is the point that I made that you so clearly missed: Boozer and Jefferson are still poor defenders, them being on better team schemes that hide their deficiencies and make them less of a liability does not change the fact that they are still poor defenders.

 

4 years in Chicago hasn't changed this for Booz but one season in Charlotte has somehow eliminated all doubts about Jefferson for North.  I'd say you're slipping too but you never had solid footing to begin with.

 

You couldn't destroy my arguments on this topic if you had all of HAMAS' rockets and all of Kim Jong Un's nukes.

 

You haven't proven one single thing to prove why Jefferson didn't have a PROFOUND effect on that team.   You simply went on one of your wild tangents ( using Carlos Boozer of all people ) to try to poke holes at Jefferson.   It's sad really.  Especially after YOU YOURSEF admitted that Jefferson was worth the 13.5 million that Charlotte paid for him last year.

 

I've gone line by line in past posts, using stats OTHER than Defensive Rating, to prove how he helped transformed that team on defense.   And I've given Clifford a ton of credit for implementing a system that turned him from a pick and roll liability, to a pick and roll strength.   But let you tell it, Charlotte would still be a top 10 defense if they had Byron Mullens starting at center.

 

You may can fool some of these high school and college kids on Hawksquawk with your tangents, but you can't fool people who actually WATCH basketball.  

 

So I'll ask the question again:

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league?   

 

It's a reason why you're avoiding answering that question.   

 

 

Edited July 30, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[nathan2331]

I have to agree with North here. The Bobcats showed that through scheme, Jefferson could have a positive impact on defense. You can't say Jefferson has another big to fall back on like Boozer has in Chicago. You have to give him some credit for anchoring Charlotte's defense.

I'd be lying if I said I wanted Jefferson least season but he would have been a good addition to the team. I'm not sweating it though since we signed Millsap.

[MaceCase]

1)You may can fool some of these high school and college kids on Hawksquawk with your tangents, but you can't fool people who actually WATCH basketball.  

 

 

 

2)So I'll ask the question again:

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league?   

 

It's a reason why you're avoiding answering that question.   

 

 

So I'm the one being tangential discussing how most of the "line for line" you used to defend Jefferson is bunk (it has to be bunk because you seem to be completely taken aback that Boozer looks great by the same measures) yet you're not by wanting to use this as a referendum for why people weren't confident that a rookie coach could undo 9 years worth of evidence against a player instead.....

 

Perhaps you're the one dodging here by A) insulting the makeup of the Squawk by calling them not knowledgeable enough B) not knowing the difference between a tangent and a direct comparison.

 

By you boldly calling people "liars" for claiming that Jefferson is a poor defender and then avoiding comparisons with other players by the same metrics it would seem that you're the one trying to dance your way out from a position.

 

I claimed Jefferson was not overpaid.....for the career year that he put up but thing with career years is that they can often serve as outliers more than norms.  He managed to perform up to his contract (not a given) but I additionally and most importantly also made it very clear that the Hawks received ~98% of Jefferson's production for 4 million less.

 

So to boil it down, the crux of your argument is claiming that the Hawks made some sort of monumental mistake by not signing Jefferson by trying to attribute measures and factors to him that when attributed to other players of his ilk is..... "tangential" while entirely undermining the contributions of Millsap because to have you tell it, the Hawks passed up on Jefferson to sign Byron Mullens instead.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So I'm the one being tangential discussing how most of the "line for line" you used to defend Jefferson is bunk (it has to be bunk because you seem to be completely taken aback that Boozer looks great by the same measures) yet you're not by wanting to use this as a referendum for why people weren't confident that a rookie coach could undo 9 years worth of evidence against a player instead.....

 

Perhaps you're the one dodging here by A) insulting the makeup of the Squawk by calling them not knowledgeable enough B) not knowing the difference between a tangent and a direct comparison.

 

By you boldly calling people "liars" for claiming that Jefferson is a poor defender and then avoiding comparisons with other players by the same metrics it would seem that you're the one trying to dance your way out from a position.

 

I claimed Jefferson was not overpaid.....for the career year that he put up but thing with career years is that they can often serve as outliers more than norms.  He managed to perform up to his contract (not a given) but I additionally and most importantly also made it very clear that the Hawks received ~98% of Jefferson's production for 4 million less.

 

So to boil it down, the crux of your argument is claiming that the Hawks made some sort of monumental mistake by not signing Jefferson by trying to attribute measures and factors to him that when attributed to other players of his ilk is..... "tangential" while entirely undermining the contributions of Millsap because to have you tell it, the Hawks passed up on Jefferson to sign Byron Mullens instead.

 

Still can't ( or won't ) answer the question huh?

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league? 

[MaceCase]

Still can't ( or won't ) answer the question huh?

 

Why don't you believe that Bud couldn't turn a Jefferson - Horford duo into one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league? 

I answered your question, it's right there in the very first text block.  The real question here is why you believe that Horford and Sap aren't already one of the most potent and balanced frontlines in the league? 

 

See, you like to believe that your whole argument exists in a vacuum while continuing to ignore Paul Millsap.  It's your whole schtick, downplay contributions made by current Hawks, overplay contributions made by players you like.  See by creating a false narrative you believe that you can legitimately make the argument that Jefferson-Horf duo is vastly superior to Horf-Sap when you have no basis for this besides tired old hypotheticals.

[sillent]

This thread is blasphemous and idiotic. Bosh used to kill Smoove, not Horford in Toronto. Horf has always been a better PF than C especially on defense where he doesn't take as much abuse in the paint. One star thread.

Bosh killed Smooth in Toronto? Look up the highlights. Garnett couldn't even kill Smooth in his hayday

[sillent]

You are a damn idiot. Since when has Horford D been just average. He is one of the most versatile big defenders in the NBA. I will Dolfan had neg rep on. I would neg you to death.

I actually agreee with you Supes, but this is coming close to a personal attack don't you think?

It's funny what people say in a safe place.... And I'm not the only idiot. When has Horford ever made 2nd/3rd defensive team? Yall got me talking about our players as if I'm against them when I'm just stating facts. You obviously don't know or play the game like you think you do. Another commentator.