Over grading the work of Ferry.

[Wretch]

Just for the record, I am neither a Ferry supporter nor a Ferry "hater".  He has stupidly shot himself in the foot with his remarks.  However, to his credit, he has not bogged us down with long term killer contracts either.  He needs to resign, but I doubt that he will do so, as that would eliminate his rights under his contract.  If he is fired, he would be entitled to continue to receive his income.  So, I would imagine he will not resign, (and probably none of us would either, given the financial considerations.)  It will be difficult for him to get another job in the future.   However, if for nothing other than to show spite for Gearon, he probably should be retained. 

 

ASG has got to go.  No more management by committee please.

 

I'm not a hater or a supporter either, but I lean more towards the negative end of the spectrum.  When Ferry came in, I was excited because he said things about changing the culture that were like music to my ears.  But the decision to remain competitive at all costs is where I can't support him.  I wouldn't say he's been bad, but certainly not good enough to act like he has the Midas touch.

 

People are riding the high of the JJ trade, but for me that was a stroke of luck...

 

That was like being upside down on a home valued at 115k with a $150k mortgage.  We needed to sell it, but even the best comps were going for around $130k tops.  This deal was basically like a good friend of ours hitting the lottery and, for whatever reason, wanting OUR specific house - and was willing to give us the full asking price.  

 

What do you say to that except THANK YOU!  lol  People are acting like Ferry was this awesome real estate agent that worked around the clock and sold a home when honestly, we lucked up on a buyer willing to erase our mistake. Is it a great move?  Hell yeah.  Does it make Ferry a brilliant GM?  Considering Brooklyn's situation, not in my opinion.  

 

That's being honest and not in the least bit negative.

[Wretch]

Name a Hawks GM in the past 25 years who's had this team better set up for current and future success without mortgaging the future. 

 

Future success...?  By what making the playoffs?  Clearing cap space that marquee free agents won't touch?  Making generalizations about Africa that may have nose-dived us?  Signing a pretty good PF to a two year deal?

 

I already listed Babcock and BK's merits...and I would say we were certainly set up for success prior to the 2005 draft.  We had a TON of young players with potential and were just about to land a coveted young free agent.  But looking at it through the lens of a revisionist, of course you forget how excited we were about our young talent back then...because obviously we knew how they would turn out.

 

I'll let Ferry win A PLAYOFF SERIES first before I say we're looking pretty good.  Until then, we look like a middle of the pack team...which isn't much better than what BK or Babs accomplished.  Not bad, but not way better.  In the case of Babcock, I would say that I think Ferry will do better with his drafts and keeping us financially flexible...then again, I've only said a BILLION times over that Ferry is a smarter Pete Babcock.

[Diesel]

babcock did some good things.  he struggled with the rebuild and made the worst trade in hawks history, but i liked him.  ferry probably isn't that bad, but he made a mistake he might not survive.

 

The question is... Is Ferry that good?

 

Babcock has a few great trades and acquisitions under his belt.  Ferry just has Sap and Korver.  That's nothing in comparison to Deke and Blaylock... or Theo, Kukoc, Big Dog, or even LaPhonso.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Millsap at $9.5 million vs. Smith at $15 million?  So Millsap is dismissed as "cap space" huh?  You talk about the Ferry supporters being blind to his faults, but the critics are equally blind to obvious improvements he made.  Millsap is a better player than Smith, and cost us 40% less.  BUT FERRY IS THE WORST GM IN HISTORY!!!!!!  Or so you tell us.

Ferry improved our flexibility by getting us under the salary cap. Problem is that he's only landed one significant free agent ( Millsap ) and hasn't made a single trade to bring in a significant player.

So what good is being "flexible" if you're not willing to spend money to upgrade the talent .. or trade some good pieces to get a better piece?

BK made a mid season trade to get Bibby. Even Sund made a trade to get Jamal. Ferry traded for Antwan Jamison ... then cut him for cash .. and did the same thing essentially with John Salmoms.

So when does "flexibility" actually turn into a player that can really help us?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Signing a pretty good PF to a two year deal?

And that's the other thing that will expose him. Not locking up Millsap to a longer term deal may have seemed like a smart move. In the long run though, it's going to cost him even more money, if he re-signs.

Millsap being signed to a 3 yr - 27 million or a 4 yr - 40 million deal, would look damn good right now. Instead, there's no telling what Sap's asking price will be next summer. He could easily demand 12 mill a year, if he has a similar season this year, like he had last year. He might even have to overpay Millsap ... ((( gasp )))

[Diesel]

I'm not defending Ferry.  The jury is still out.  When you consider how many lottery picks BK had, and what a poor job he did drafting with them, no one can say that BK "wasn't that bad."  When you throw away the farm to get JJ.  You waste lottery picks on Marvin and Shelden.  A 12 year old could have done better than that.

 

He wasn't just bad, he was arrogantly bad.  It's one thing to be bad, if you are humble about it and learn from your mistakes.  It's another thing to be bad, but be under the delusion that you're great.

 

Here's what I say....

 

JJ, Horford, Zaza, Bibby, and Smoove....

 

Those are examples of where BK found a win.

 

 

Let's not talk about firesales because Firesales are meaningless... but if you like, I would compare Rasheed Wallace and what came after to anything that Ferry has gained in his firesale.

 

Here's what you don't see BK doing.  Giving away a first round pick for NOTHING.  Ferry missed out on Dieng... took Bebe.. then traded Bebe for abandoned player and then got NOTHING.

BK valued picks even if he didn't use them well.

 

Al Horford is a Hawk because of BK's Drafting.

Josh Smith was a Hawk because of BK Drafting.

Hell, even Boris Diaw was a Hawk because of BK's drafting.

 

So there we have it...  When you consider Josh Smith and Boris Diaw, BK trumps anything that Ferry has ever drafted with us.

  And I used those two because they were mid-late rounders.

 

Let's talk acquisitions:

 

JJ trumps Millsap.

Korver trumps Bibby.

Zaza trumps Antić.

Harrington trumps L. Williams

BK's firesale was better than Ferry's.

BK's plan was better than Ferry's.

 

I'm here all day...when you want to talk the facts.

[Admin]

Future success...? By what making the playoffs? Clearing cap space that marquee free agents won't touch? Making generalizations about Africa that may have nose-dived us? Signing a pretty good PF to a two year deal?

I already listed Babcock and BK's merits...and I would say we were certainly set up for success prior to the 2005 draft. We had a TON of young players with potential and were just about to land a coveted young free agent. But looking at it through the lens of a revisionist, of course you forget how excited we were about our young talent back then...because obviously we knew how they would turn out.

I'll let Ferry win A PLAYOFF SERIES first before I say we're looking pretty good. Until then, we look like a middle of the pack team...which isn't much better than what BK or Babs accomplished. Not bad, but not way better. In the case of Babcock, I would say that I think Ferry will do better with his drafts and keeping us financially flexible...then again, I've only said a BILLION times over that Ferry is a smarter Pete Babcock.

Well you're more than entitled to your opinion but I genuinely believe any non biased fan would be more excited about the team right now and for the future (front office nonsense aside) than we were in 2005. This team has plenty of young guys who can actually play smart team ball and we've got talented unselfish veterans, we're in great shape draft pick wise and financially for the future as well. Plus we have a head coach who's almost universally loved around here, which is a 1st for a VERY long time. We have a ton of player assets that can be used in trades as they're in terrific contracts. Finally, if we don't like where we are at in a year or two we can completely blow it up and start over if we want. This team has a lot of options and I know you'll gloss over that but it's true and that's exciting.

[Diesel]

I'm a Bud supporter, but he's definitely behind Lenny and Fratello right now. And Drew can always say that he never had a losing season as Hawks coach.

And a correction Diesel ... The Hawks went 40 - 26 the year Horford went down under Drew ... not 40 - 42. That was the strike year. What's even more impressive is that the Hawks went 33 - 22 after Horford went down that year.

The Hawks this season went 22 - 31 after we lost Horford. And people routinely forget that our beloved "on hiatus" GM did absolutely nothing to bring in a player to compensate for the loss of Horford.

 

I stand Corrected!!

[Diesel]

Name a Hawks GM in the past 25 years who's had this team better set up for current and future success without mortgaging the future. 

 

Billy Knight  going into the 2004 draft.

Billy Knight going into the 2005 draft.

 

To date, Ferry has simply followed BK's plan without tanking.

BK firesaled everybody... with the purpose of tanking.  Yes, he gave away Terry, Reef, Big Dog, and Theo and he picked up a bunch of rental players... and put them with a first year coach.

Bk's 2004 draft, he picked up Chillz and Smoove.  Although, he should've picked up Iguodala..or Jefferson... we were still OK.

BK's 2005 draft was the death kiss.

With all that though, we still had no long term contracts that was killing us and lots of tradable players.   And we were still in the lottery.

 

BK had us set up well..better than Ferry... but he just didn't have an eye for talent.

[Wretch]

And that's the other thing that will expose him. Not locking up Millsap to a longer term deal may have seemed like a smart move. In the long run though, it's going to cost him even more money, if he re-signs.

Millsap being signed to a 3 yr - 27 million or a 4 yr - 40 million deal, would look damn good right now. Instead, there's no telling what Sap's asking price will be next summer. He could easily demand 12 mill a year, if he has a similar season this year, like he had last year. He might even have to overpay Millsap ... ((( gasp )))

 

And I have no doubt that is what Ferry intended to do.

 

 

Well you're more than entitled to your opinion but I genuinely believe any non biased fan would be more excited about the team right now and for the future (front office nonsense aside) than we were in 2005. This team has plenty of young guys who can actually play smart team ball and we've got talented unselfish veterans, we're in great shape draft pick wise and financially for the future as well. Plus we have a head coach who's almost universally loved around here, which is a 1st for a VERY long time. We have a ton of player assets that can be used in trades as they're in terrific contracts. Finally, if we don't like where we are at in a year or two we can completely blow it up and start over if we want. This team has a lot of options and I know you'll gloss over that but it's true and that's exciting.

I've no doubt that we're capable of a 50 win season, a strong 3rd seed, and a good 2nd round series.  Zero doubt.  Which, by all means is GOOD.  For me, having watched this team for 30 years, I'm not excited about that.  I've seen Babcock and BK do that.

 

As far as our assets...

Forgive me if I lean on the history of the draft here.  I've got nothing against the guys we're drafting.  It's just that the area we're picking these guys in is...well, the odds of finding impact players beyond 14 are bad.  Does that mean Payne or Dennis WILL BE washouts, scrubs, or role players?  Not at all.  But I don't expect perennial All Star or HoF type careers out of them.

 

...and what are we gonna get for these guys?  We're not going to pull a Big 3 renovation like Boston did or a Kevin Love swap like Cleveland.  

 

I'll give you cap space (which nobody wants to take from us) and I will certainly give you Budenholzer.  That's just an amazing pick up - not so much his coaching ability, but the fact that this guy was at the top of everyone's list.

[Watchman]

Here's what I say....

 

JJ, Horford, Zaza, Bibby, and Smoove....

 

Those are examples of where BK found a win.

 

 

Let's not talk about firesales because Firesales are meaningless... but if you like, I would compare Rasheed Wallace and what came after to anything that Ferry has gained in his firesale.

 

Here's what you don't see BK doing.  Giving away a first round pick for NOTHING.  Ferry missed out on Dieng... took Bebe.. then traded Bebe for abandoned player and then got NOTHING.

BK valued picks even if he didn't use them well.

 

Al Horford is a Hawk because of BK's Drafting.

Josh Smith was a Hawk because of BK Drafting.

Hell, even Boris Diaw was a Hawk because of BK's drafting.

 

So there we have it...  When you consider Josh Smith and Boris Diaw, BK trumps anything that Ferry has ever drafted with us.

  And I used those two because they were mid-late rounders.

 

Let's talk acquisitions:

 

JJ trumps Millsap.

Korver trumps Bibby.

Zaza trumps Antić.

Harrington trumps L. Williams

BK's firesale was better than Ferry's.

BK's plan was better than Ferry's.

 

I'm here all day...when you want to talk the facts.

 

Even Mickey Mouse would have drafted Horford at #3. 

 

I don't consider drafting Smith being much of an accomplishment.  All the athletic ability in the world, but clueless as to how to take advantage of it.  And we wasted all those seasons waiting for him to wake up.  And he never did.  Now he's Detroit's problem.

 

Millsap @$9.5 million trumps JJ @ $15 million every day, all day long.

[Admin]

Even Mickey Mouse would have drafted Horford at #3.

I don't consider drafting Smith being much of an accomplishment. All the athletic ability in the world, but clueless as to how to take advantage of it. And we wasted all those seasons waiting for him to wake up. And he never did. Now he's Detroit's problem.

Millsap @$9.5 million trumps JJ @ $15 million every day, all day long.

Horf was far from a slam dunk at 3 and many were still hungover from the Shelden disaster. It's easy to look back and say he was absolutely the guy but there was a ton of hype for the Chinese kid, who's name escapes me.

[Guest]

Horf was far from a slam dunk at 3 and many were still hungover from the Shelden disaster. It's easy to look back and say he was absolutely the guy but there was a ton of hype for the Chinese kid, who's name escapes me.

Yi.

Definitely didn't want him.

[Admin]

Yi.

Definitely didn't want him.

I was curious about him as were many here but we got lucky to get out of that.

[AHF]

Coming into the 2004 draft and moving forward, you can look back and see a lot of possibilities that could have landed up in contender territory as a team if we pulled the right levers.  We already had Boris Diaw who we know was poorly used by Woody but had the talent to be a prominent member of the team.  Then we passed on:

 

2004 - 1 of Al Jefferson, Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala & 1 of Kevin Martin, Josh Smith, Anderson Varejao

2005 - 1 of Chris Paul, Deron Williams

2006 - 1 of Rajon Rondo, Brandon Roy, Kyle Lowry & 1 of Paul Millsap (no others close)

2007 - Nailed Horford. 1 of Marc Gasol, Thaddeus Young

 

It isn't hard to see the potential of that dry powder.  That is why we have lamented over and over the last few years about where we would be if BK had only....

 

I am not sure that we will be having the same discussion over the Ferry years.  I think in that one we are actually heading where we are intending to go - treading 1st and 2nd round playoff exits with cap space and hopes that a low % move can vault us up to actual contender status.

[Admin]

Coming into the 2004 draft and moving forward, you can look back and see a lot of possibilities that could have landed up in contender territory as a team if we pulled the right levers.  We already had Boris Diaw who we know was poorly used by Woody but had the talent to be a prominent member of the team.  Then we passed on:

 

2004 - 1 of Al Jefferson, Luol Deng, Andre Iguodala & 1 of Kevin Martin, Josh Smith, Anderson Varejao

2005 - 1 of Chris Paul, Deron Williams

2006 - 1 of Rajon Rondo, Brandon Roy, Kyle Lowry & 1 of Paul Millsap (no others close)

2007 - Nailed Horford. 1 of Marc Gasol, Thaddeus Young

 

It isn't hard to see the potential of that dry powder.  That is why we have lamented over and over the last few years about where we would be if BK had only....

 

I am not sure that we will be having the same discussion over the Ferry years.  I think in that one we are actually heading where we are intending to go - treading 1st and 2nd round playoff exits with cap space and hopes that a low % move can vault us up to actual contender status.

 

That's kind of looking at it in a vacuum though as picking the right guy in any of those drafts would have altered where we were in future drafts. 

[Admin]

Yi.

Definitely didn't want him.

I was curious about him as were many here but we got lucky to get out of that.

[Diesel]

I don't think Bebe is a completely wasted pick. Under the Ferry regime its clear that they wan't big men who can shoot and move the ball. If you limit the comparison criteria to that, you get rid of Gorgui Deing, Mason Plumlee and Rudy Gobert as they are all more traditional post centers or not the caliber of passers Ferry/Bud want. The next one with the skillset? We took him with Muscala.  I would have rather had a player who could have produced something, but we lacked roster spots at any other posistion (4 Cs, 4 PF, 3 SF, 3 SG, 4PG used last year.)

 

I absolutely believe that whatever Ferry saw when he was scouting both Muscala and Bebe when they played in ACB contributed to him being traded. Maybe it was durability, skill set, or desire to fight through adversity. We have to consider that Muscala beat out Bebe for a spot with his play. 

 

With ASG we also have to consider money. Would they balk at paying any of his buy out. Do they refuse to pay more than one first round pick? Mike Scott is the only 2nd round pick to play immediately and that was during our transition year. Muscala played abroad until the numbers became more favorable for the Hawks. Pittman and  Edy this year are playing overseas.

 

I guess it comes down to a few questions:

 

1. Do we draft BPA or need? Ferry seems to draft need.
2. Were there any players at any position that fit our system and were available after we picked? Ferry deemed the answer to be no
3. Were Muscala and Bebe in a competition for a roster spot?
4. Is the overseas development for actual development or to save money? I think its a combination of both.
5. What is the actual market for the player? ie Was this the best deal.

In the end Bebe cost us nothing and "made" us money by helping clear money for player who will play right now.

 

 

In Bebe, Ferry saw a guy who he could hold in Europe for as long as he wanted and not have to pay.  When Bebe Forced Ferry's hand by buying himself out... Ferry traded him.

[Diesel]

Even Mickey Mouse would have drafted Horford at #3. 

 

I don't consider drafting Smith being much of an accomplishment.  All the athletic ability in the world, but clueless as to how to take advantage of it.  And we wasted all those seasons waiting for him to wake up.  And he never did.  Now he's Detroit's problem.

 

Millsap @$9.5 million trumps JJ @ $15 million every day, all day long.

 

Still, we had to pull the trigger on those picks.  We could have Marvin'd Horf.

Also, Millsap at 9.5 for 2 years doesn't trump JJ at 15 for 5.  How much do you think an old Millsap will cost us?

[curtmcgirt]

In Bebe, Ferry saw a guy who he could hold in Europe for as long as he wanted and not have to pay.  When Bebe Forced Ferry's hand by buying himself out... Ferry traded him.

 

Or Ferry, saw an investment get knee tendinitis in a league that plays once a week and sold high.