Over grading the work of Ferry.

[AHF]

That's kind of looking at it in a vacuum though as picking the right guy in any of those drafts would have altered where we were in future drafts. 

 

No question about it.  If you take Jefferson and Iggy, you probably still are in good position the next year to grab someone like Paul or Deron but if you made the best choices you would not end up with Horford, for example.  The point was less that we could have put all these guys on the same roster (we couldn't have) and more to point out how many shots we had at impact guys during that time.  

 

I can sit here today and be unhappy that we haven't drafted a clear starter yet since Ferry has been in charge of the draft but I can't sit there and say, "we could be a contender if Ferry had just drafted [insert Player] instead of" Jenkins, Bebe, etc.

[Admin]

No question about it.  If you take Jefferson and Iggy, you probably still are in good position the next year to grab someone like Paul or Deron but if you made the best choices you would not end up with Horford, for example.  The point was less that we could have put all these guys on the same roster (we couldn't have) and more to point out how many shots we had at impact guys during that time.  

 

I can sit here today and be unhappy that we haven't drafted a clear starter yet since Ferry has been in charge of the draft but I can't sit there and say, "we could be a contender if Ferry had just drafted [insert Player] instead of" Jenkins, Bebe, etc.

 

This is true, but it doesn't take any sort of special GM to have his team in the top of the lottery every year. Just put out a crappy team, hire a crappy coach, and pick the youngest rawest guys each year. Hell the Sixers are pretty much using the formula to perfection for what you guys would like to do and it will be interesting to see where that strategy gets them. 

[AHF]

This is true, but it doesn't take any sort of special GM to have his team in the top of the lottery every year. Just put out a crappy team, hire a crappy coach, and pick the youngest rawest guys each year. Hell the Sixers are pretty much using the formula to perfection for what you guys would like to do and it will be interesting to see where that strategy gets them. 

 

Obviously, it hitting the lottery worked out for some teams (Durant OKC, current Cleveland, Rockets post-Moses, Spurs' crash and burn for Duncan, etc.) and failed miserably for others (probably no better example than the old Clippers used this to get absolutely nowhere) but I still think there are a lot more champions who got their cornerstone to build around out of their own dip into the lottery than teams that build out of mediocrity into champions through savvy trades or free agent acquisitions.  

 

I don't want to derail this thread, it is just an overarching question I have about the strategy of hanging around in the middle with good contracts and waiting for that chip to surface that you can play to become a true contender.

[Admin]

Obviously, it hitting the lottery worked out for some teams (Durant OKC, current Cleveland, Rockets post-Moses, Spurs' crash and burn for Duncan, etc.) and failed miserably for others (probably no better example than the old Clippers used this to get absolutely nowhere) but I still think there are a lot more champions who got their cornerstone to build around out of their own dip into the lottery than teams that build out of mediocrity into champions through savvy trades or free agent acquisitions.  

 

I don't want to derail this thread, it is just an overarching question I have about the strategy of hanging around in the middle with good contracts and waiting for that chip to surface that you can play to become a true contender.

 

Well hopefully we'll find out in the next year or two, assuming this thing isn't blown up. 

[AHF]

I am just spending all my mental energy rooting for a complete housecleaning of the ownership right now.  Anything more is gravy!

[Sothron]

Man, Kasten for all his warts built the most successful teams we have had here in Atlanta.  Next was Babcock.  Ferry is 3rd at best right now.

I agree with this but I put Pete above him. Pete is the best GM we ever had. For all the complaints about his draft there's also people forgetting we didn't draft highly that often under him.

[Admin]

I agree with this but I put Pete above him. Pete is the best GM we ever had. For all the complaints about his draft there's also people forgetting we didn't draft highly that often under him.

 

Hell no, Babcock is arguably the worst GM ever. Super nice guy and all, but his drafts were horrendous. I mean at some point you gotta at least get lucky, right? That one year I think we had 4 1st round picks and we came away with squat, if I remember correctly.  He made some nice FA signings and trades but his drafting may have cost us a shot at a championship since we had horrible depth and no youth.

[Guest]

Arguing about who's the best of the worst GM's in Hawks history - sigh!

No trips out of the 2nd round says enough.

[MrMeltdown]

Ferry simply isn't worth the headache he brings and has not done anything so great for serious Hawks fans to continue to take up for him.

[Diesel]

Or Ferry, saw an investment get knee tendinitis in a league that plays once a week and sold high.

 

Sold High??  Remind me... What did we get?

[tbhawksfan]

Sold High?? Remind me... What did we get?[/quot

Very disappointed

[DrReality]

You wonder if the task DF has been given while on leave...........to get in touch with civic leaders, etc, is just a smooth way to usher him out the door.  IE well your efforts to connect with the leaders fell short......sorry. Seems like a set up.

[Diesel]

Obviously, it hitting the lottery worked out for some teams (Durant OKC, current Cleveland, Rockets post-Moses, Spurs' crash and burn for Duncan, etc.) and failed miserably for others (probably no better example than the old Clippers used this to get absolutely nowhere) but I still think there are a lot more champions who got their cornerstone to build around out of their own dip into the lottery than teams that build out of mediocrity into champions through savvy trades or free agent acquisitions.  

 

I don't want to derail this thread, it is just an overarching question I have about the strategy of hanging around in the middle with good contracts and waiting for that chip to surface that you can play to become a true contender.

 

I think that's really a hard sticking point though.  IN the NBA, how many championship teams have been built without a lottery pick of it's own being in a prominent position on the team.

 

Spurs - Duncan.

Heat - Wade

Celtics - Pierce.

Lakers - Kobe (psuedo)

Bulls = Jordan

Detroit = Isiah

Houston = Hakeem

Lakers = Magic

Celtics = Bird

 

Only one team has hacked it's way up to the top and that's the Pistons.

But to go from Midround pickers to championship is not happening in the NBA.

[AHF]

I think that's really a hard sticking point though.  IN the NBA, how many championship teams have been built without a lottery pick of it's own being in a prominent position on the team.

 

Spurs - Duncan.

Heat - Wade

Celtics - Pierce.

Lakers - Kobe (psuedo)

Bulls = Jordan

Detroit = Isiah

Houston = Hakeem

Lakers = Magic

Celtics = Bird

 

Only one team has hacked it's way up to the top and that's the Pistons.

But to go from Midround pickers to championship is not happening in the NBA.

 

Yeah, we have gone over this is much more depth on other threads and don't want to derail this one.  I don't want this thread to digress into a repeat of that debate.  I will note that everyone you mentioned was a Finals MVP, and I agree it isn't a coincidence.

[Plainview1981]

I was a HUGE BK supporter, but Marvin over Paul is what landed us in the past decades quagmire. BK was experimenting with something that I think was worth experimenting with (6'5" or taller players at every position) but failed at recognizing transcendent talent when it was right in front of him.

 

Sund was a tool of Gearon who just worked as a place holder.

 

 Babcock, Deke and LaPhonso Ellis are his two biggest signings. but he was great at trades. I want him in the organization for that purpose ALONE. I want him nowhere near a draft. Also HE TRADED NIQUE. -1,000,000,000,000 points for that alone.

 

Ferry has a plan that works with what his coach wants, which is different from the other three. We have flexibility and all of our picks. I know people are upset about BeBe, but Tavares could be better. We can only look at what's actually been on the floor. John Jenkins and Dennis need to show something this year.

 

What???

 

Ellis was a flop.

[Plainview1981]

I'm a Bud supporter, but he's definitely behind Lenny and Fratello right now. And Drew can always say that he never had a losing season as Hawks coach.

And a correction Diesel ... The Hawks went 40 - 26 the year Horford went down under Drew ... not 40 - 42. That was the strike year. What's even more impressive is that the Hawks went 33 - 22 after Horford went down that year.

The Hawks this season went 22 - 31 after we lost Horford. And people routinely forget that our beloved "on hiatus" GM did absolutely nothing to bring in a player to compensate for the loss of Horford.

 

 

 

ZaZa was a pretty important player when Horf went down the first time. 

[Guest]

Like I've pointed our before - it wasn't JUST Horford going down with injury.

Take a look back at that 14 game losing streak and see how many players we had missing due to injuries. DMC playing PF, Scott starting, EB playing 40+ minutes - I don't care how good of a GM one is having 8 players available some night which includes maybe 2 starters - that's hard to overcome for ANY team to overcome.

It was the cummalative effect of the compiling injuries that had a lot to do with the record and not just ONLY missing Al.

[curtmcgirt]

What???

 

Ellis was a flop.

 

Never said he was good, just that he was one the two "big" signings he made.

[DJlaysitup]

"DMC playing PF"

 

Well we lost ONE major player to injury...the reason DMC was playing PF was because he was the best the coach had to stick in there.

[Diesel]

Exactly tone.  We finally get a good thing going and these fools can't even realize it. 

 

I love how Diesel conveniently leaves out the fact that Ferry brought in a coach who is a franchise changer.  The hiring of Bud, by Ferry, is better than any other move listed next to any of the 4.

 

And Babcock brought in Lenny. And Kasten..Fratello.... Anyway....

 

 

I don't mention coaches because I don't know what GMs have to work with.  I mean, BK couldn't fire Woodson.. and Sund Fired Woodson and hired LD?  Were we running the team on the cheap?  I think so.  We were still paying out way out of debt during the BK/Sund years.