A Team Full of Others...

[Diesel]

"The Others" is a term that Shaq created to descirbe secondary guys on a basketball team.  Not the star or superstar but the others.   What must a guy do for the Hawks to not be considered one of the others?

Somebody said that we have not had a star since Nique?  Is that true?

Wasn't Deke a star?

Wasn't Shareef a Star?

Wasn't Mookie a Star?

Wasn't Kukoc a star?

Wasn't Joe Johnson a Star?

What about Al, Paul or Teague??

 

Or Are we a team full of others?

Lastly...  Is this just a Hawks fan depression of the Hawks?  It seems that we undervalue our players all the time.

 

[macdaddy]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

"The Others" is a term that Shaq created to descirbe secondary guys on a basketball team.  Not the star or superstar but the others.   What must a guy do for the Hawks to not be considered one of the others?

Somebody said that we have not had a star since Nique?  Is that true?

Wasn't Deke a star?

Wasn't Shareef a Star?

Wasn't Mookie a Star?

Wasn't Kukoc a star?

Wasn't Joe Johnson a Star?

What about Al, Paul or Teague??

 

Or Are we a team full of others?

Lastly...  Is this just a Hawks fan depression of the Hawks?  It seems that we undervalue our players all the time.

 

None of those guys were stars.   Joe was the closest (and you left out Smitty.  He was the one on that team that was our star).    Kukoc?  please.   But none of those guys were or are stars.  

[Lurker]

Al, Paul, and Teague are considered a team of "The Others" because none of them are considered to be actual stars nationally by the NBA. And those people nationally turn out to be 100% RIGHT at playoff time.

I know you have me blocked though, so idc.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Lurker

[Dejay]

Superstars are transcendent players who only come around but so often (Lebron, MJ, Kobe, Shaq) while star players are those who are nationally known for being able to change a game or a series (Wade, PG-13, Harden, CP3). Both of these type of players can get that 'Bruce Leroy/Shonuff-glow' and go on a 20+ point run by themselves in the 4th without a single person in the arena or watching on TV being shocked or surprised when it happens. In either case, the TV announcers won't have to do a five-minute monologue in terms of who the guy is when he goes off for a 20-point run by himself in the 4th.

The Hawks haven't had either guy since Nique was doing tomahawk dunks in the old Omni over 20 years ago. Smitty had his moments but not the glow. Deke won some defensive player of the year awards but didn't have it. Neither did Laettner, Osh, Shareef, or Kukoc. And while there are plenty of Horford, Teague, and Millsap highlights to point out, they never had that glow, either. That's the final piece missing to this jigsaw puzzle...

Edited June 1, 2016 by Dejay

[ViewsFromTheSquawk]

Schröder.... Or KD? 

[AUhawksfan]

5 minutes ago, Dejay said:

Superstars are transcendent players who only come around but so often (Lebron, MJ, Kobe, Shaq) while star players are those who are nationally known for being able to change a game or a series (Wade, PG-13, Harden, CP3). Both of these type of players can get that 'Bruce Leroy/Shonuff-glow' and go on a 20+ point run by themselves in the 4th without a single person in the arena or watching on TV being shocked or surprised when it happens. In either case, the TV announcers won't have to do a five-minute monologue in terms of who the guy is when he goes off for a 20-point run by himself in the 4th.

The Hawks haven't had either guy since Nique was doing tomahawk dunks in the old Omni over 20 years ago. Smitty had his moments but not the glow. Deke won some defensive player of the year awards but didn't have it. Neither did Laettner, Osh, Shareef, or Kukoc. And while there are plenty of Horford, Teague, and Millsap highlights to point out, they never had that glow, either. That's the final piece missing to this jigsaw puzzle...

Love the explanation, exactly how I feel.  Outside of Nique, I'd say Smitty and Joe were closest.  They have both taken over their share of big games but haven't consistently shouldered the burden and didn't have that "big" personality some stars do.  They also didn't put up the gaudy numbers as other big time shooting guards.

At the end of the day, there are plenty of teams that haven't had a superstar come around and lo and behold they haven't had much success because of that.  Superstars make a much bigger difference in winning or not than any other pro sport in my opinion.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, macdaddy said:

None of those guys were stars.   Joe was the closest (and you left out Smitty.  He was the one on that team that was our star).    Kukoc?  please.   But none of those guys were or are stars.  

Joe was closest?

7 time allstar Joe was close to being a star?

What's the measure then?

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, Lurker said:

Al, Paul, and Teague are considered a team of "The Others" because none of them are considered to be actual stars nationally by the NBA. And those people nationally turn out to be 100% RIGHT at playoff time.

I know you have me blocked though, so idc.

Knee Jerker.. I have never had to block anybody.   I'm the antiDeke on Hawksquawk.  Moreover, I have had disagreements with people who have much better points than you.  I know Walter.  You sir are no Walter.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, Dejay said:

Superstars are transcendent players who only come around but so often (Lebron, MJ, Kobe, Shaq) while star players are those who are nationally known for being able to change a game or a series (Wade, PG-13, Harden, CP3). Both of these type of players can get that 'Bruce Leroy/Shonuff-glow' and go on a 20+ point run by themselves in the 4th without a single person in the arena or watching on TV being shocked or surprised when it happens. In either case, the TV announcers won't have to do a five-minute monologue in terms of who the guy is when he goes off for a 20-point run by himself in the 4th.

The Hawks haven't had either guy since Nique was doing tomahawk dunks in the old Omni over 20 years ago. Smitty had his moments but not the glow. Deke won some defensive player of the year awards but didn't have it. Neither did Laettner, Osh, Shareef, or Kukoc. And while there are plenty of Horford, Teague, and Millsap highlights to point out, they never had that glow, either. That's the final piece missing to this jigsaw puzzle...

I would actually put Wade in the superstar category.  He's a first ballot hall of famer.

Moreover,   I think it's a disservice to Joe and Deke... .for sure to not be considered stars.   Moreover Deke is a hall of famer (Class of 2015).   This is what I mean when I say we drop the value on our own players.   We talk about a hall of famer (Deke) and say " he didn't have it"??  Deke could change the complexion of a game by himself.  He was a catalyst that helped Philly go to the finals.

[Dejay]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

I would actually put Wade in the superstar category.  He's a first ballot hall of famer.

Moreover,   I think it's a disservice to Joe and Deke... .for sure to not be considered stars.   Moreover Deke is a hall of famer (Class of 2015).   This is what I mean when I say we drop the value on our own players.   We talk about a hall of famer (Deke) and say " he didn't have it"??  Deke could change the complexion of a game by himself.  He was a catalyst that helped Philly go to the finals.

In Deke's case, I can see the error I made there since he had the ability the change a game defensively. He is a star player but not in the same category as Wilt, Kareem, Moses, or Shaq. I have no problem with that. In Wade's case though, while he's a first-ballot HOFer and a guy I wish that we had here during his prime years he's not Kobe, MJ, Pistol Pete, or the Logo (Jerry West). He's one of the top ten in the history of the sport in his position along with the Ice Man, Havlicek, Mitch Richmond, and a few others but he doesn't crack my top-4. Call me biased but we can just agree to disagree here. 

As for Joe Johnson, he's made a bunch of All-Star teams, granted. But if he is/was indeed a star, it wouldn't even be put forth for a debate; even here. I think he had the ability to be one but he was put in a very bad situation here by poor management (see BK and Sund) and shoddy coaching (see Woodson, Michael) to be alpha dog of the bunch when he shouldn't have been...

 

[benhillboy]

I don't have a problem with having a team full of "Others."  It can work with Bud's sound 2-Way System.  I see about 9 All-NBA players (I'm done with the term "superstar") who most likely will never make the Finals in their careers without fellow All-Star collusion to form "Big 3s."

As @NBASupes would say, Fit is everything.  You can't have a limited skill set in Jeff (poor rebounding, no mid range, mediocre defense) playing alongside  Kyle (can't dribble) and Baze (bench-level skills) . If Al is gonna transform into a finesse 4, that's fine.  But why the hell is he playing alongside another 4  and without a bruiser beside him?  Not having a True C and SF hurts in many areas but none more than the dreadful rebounding disadvantage the Hawks face 4 out of 5 nights.

The Hawks have their work cut out, that's for sure.  Jeff and one of our PFs must be moved or allowed to walk to net a big vet PG, starting 2 way SG/SF hybrid, and a paint C.  Simple as that.  I'm no KD fan but we need him like oxygen and water.  I'm 100% sure it won't happen, just happy were rumored to be serious courtesans.

Edited June 2, 2016 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

55 minutes ago, Dejay said:

In Deke's case, I can see the error I made there since he had the ability the change a game defensively. He is a star player but not in the same category as Wilt, Kareem, Moses, or Shaq. I have no problem with that. In Wade's case though, while he's a first-ballot HOFer and a guy I wish that we had here during his prime years he's not Kobe, MJ, Pistol Pete, or the Logo (Jerry West). He's one of the top ten in the history of the sport in his position along with the Ice Man, Havlicek, Mitch Richmond, and a few others but he doesn't crack my top-4. Call me biased but we can just agree to disagree here. 

As for Joe Johnson, he's made a bunch of All-Star teams, granted. But if he is/was indeed a star, it wouldn't even be put forth for a debate; even here. I think he had the ability to be one but he was put in a very bad situation here by poor management (see BK and Sund) and shoddy coaching (see Woodson, Michael) to be alpha dog of the bunch when he shouldn't have been...

 

I think that's the problem... Cracking your top 4... ?  Does Nique do that?  You are blinded by your own argument.  

Wade is definitely a superstar... Does he transcend all of basketball like Jordan, Lebron, and Wilt?  Prolly not... But he's damn close.   3 rings that he earned.  Several time allstar.  I think he's more decorated than people like Barkley.  Furthermore..

Let's talk Shaq and Kobe for a minute.

What did Kobe do that was much better than Wade??  That put him on a much higher level than Wade?

I like Kobe's accomplishments too, but I don't see him being too far out of reach of Wade.

Here's the thing...
Lebron gets all this love because he's been to 6 straight finals.  However, he got there mostly because he engineered 2 super teams.   The point is that these guys who have gotten to championships and won them didn't get there because they were so great.. hell TMac was great.  However, it had to be a lot of things.. They had to be good, they had to be on the right team and they had to have the right coaching.

 

 

[Duff_Man]

On 6/1/2016 at 11:24 AM, Diesel said:

Wasn't Shareef a Star?

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!

Oh god no.

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

I don't have a problem with having a team full of "Others."  It can work with Bud's sound 2-Way System.  I see about 9 All-NBA players (I'm done with the term "superstar") who most likely will never make the Finals in their careers without fellow All-Star collusion to form "Big 3s."

As @NBASupes would say, Fit is everything.  You can't have a limited skill set in Jeff (poor rebounding, no mid range, mediocre defense) playing alongside  Kyle (can't dribble) and Baze (bench-level skills) . If Al is gonna transform into a finesse 4, that's fine.  But why the hell is he playing alongside another 4  and without a bruiser beside him?  Not having a True C and SF hurts in many areas but none more than the dreadful rebounding disadvantage the Hawks face 4 out of 5 nights.

The Hawks have their work cut out, that's for sure.  Jeff and one of our PFs must be moved or allowed to walk to net a big vet PG, starting 2 way SG/SF hybrid, and a paint C.  Simple as that.  I'm no KD fan but we need him like oxygen and water.  I'm 100% sure it won't happen, just happy were rumored to be serious courtesans.

I can't agree more about FIT.  There must be FIT.

I agree with a lot of what you say about our team's fit.

Millsap &  Horf = duplication if Horf is becoming a stretch 4.   Moreover, Millsap is actually a better Stretch 4.

Jeff is not the defender that Schro is.; Schro is not the team player that Jeff is.

Which of those is easier to correct?

Kyle = without his shot and being 90/50/50.. then his value decreases rapidly because his defense is a bad mix to put out there with all of our other defenses.

 

Here's How I see the fix:

1.  Sign Horf.

2.  Sign Baze.

3.  Use Hinrich Money + Moose Money  to go after a Sf.   (Off the top, I suggest Jeff Green).

4.  Make a smart cheap pickup for help at C.   Maybe Tyler Zeller?

Our first for Alex Len?

During the season, we tweak.

Yes, it's the stay the course principle but right now, we don't have a lot of good moves unless the right player chooses us.

 

[benhillboy]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I can't agree more about FIT.  There must be FIT.

I agree with a lot of what you say about our team's fit.

Millsap &  Horf = duplication if Horf is becoming a stretch 4.   Moreover, Millsap is actually a better Stretch 4.

Jeff is not the defender that Schro is.; Schro is not the team player that Jeff is.

Which of those is easier to correct?

Kyle = without his shot and being 90/50/50.. then his value decreases rapidly because his defense is a bad mix to put out there with all of our other defenses.

 

Here's How I see the fix:

1.  Sign Horf.

2.  Sign Baze.

3.  Use Hinrich Money + Moose Money  to go after a Sf.   (Off the top, I suggest Jeff Green).

4.  Make a smart cheap pickup for help at C.   Maybe Tyler Zeller?

Our first for Alex Len?

During the season, we tweak.

Yes, it's the stay the course principle but right now, we don't have a lot of good moves unless the right player chooses us.

 

Len and Muhammad are players who intrigue me based off size, numbers, and what I've heard.  I can't say I've seen either play 25 minutes worth of action.  

Splitter is a huge decision as well.  If I could look into a crystal and be ensured he'd stay healthy, I'd keep him.  But I can't, so I prolly wouldn't.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, benhillboy said:

Len and Muhammad are players who intrigue me based off size, numbers, and what I've heard.  I can't say I've seen either play 25 minutes worth of action.  

Splitter is a huge decision as well.  If I could look into a crystal and be ensured he'd stay healthy, I'd keep him.  But I can't, so I prolly wouldn't.

I have the same thing going on.   I want to believe that Splitter can come back healthy and make us much better.   However, I don't know.

Len and Muhammad and Dieng are guys that I would look at and target with our first.   Let's be honest... Right now, we are not at a point where we need to be picking up project guys with first round picks.   We need those Meals Ready to Eat...  i.e. players who are on the cusp of doing something.. who have spent 1 or 2 years in the league and now are close to being good... they have outsourced their last 2 years of college for BU NBA experience.   It's a whole lot of guys that fit that bill.  Add in Leuer.  Add in Onlynk.  Add in Fournier and Henson.  Add in Bullock and Snell.  These guys won't move the meter for most fans because most fans wants us to go out and sign Lebron or Durant.   The impossibility of those signings elude them.   However, when you think about these guys, you start to look at their skillset and how it fits with our needs.  The worst thing that has happened to our franchise was losing DMC.  He was such a great fit for us... and I believe having him with Thabo and some help at the C position like Zaza or maybe even Splitter would have put us over.   Now, we have Horf trying to be Pero and all sorts of missing skillsets and instead of trying to fix our skillset problem, a lot of people just want to go back to superstar heroball wishes.   I believe like field of dreams... if you make it they will come.   In order for us to make it, we have to improve what we have.

 

 

[Dejay]

32 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think that's the problem... Cracking your top 4... ?  Does Nique do that?  You are blinded by your own argument.  

Wade is definitely a superstar... Does he transcend all of basketball like Jordan, Lebron, and Wilt?  Prolly not... But he's damn close.   3 rings that he earned.  Several time allstar.  I think he's more decorated than people like Barkley.  Furthermore..

Let's talk Shaq and Kobe for a minute.

What did Kobe do that was much better than Wade??  That put him on a much higher level than Wade?

I like Kobe's accomplishments too, but I don't see him being too far out of reach of Wade.

Here's the thing...
Lebron gets all this love because he's been to 6 straight finals.  However, he got there mostly because he engineered 2 super teams.   The point is that these guys who have gotten to championships and won them didn't get there because they were so great.. hell TMac was great.  However, it had to be a lot of things.. They had to be good, they had to be on the right team and they had to have the right coaching.

 

 

With all that said, I'm still not lumping Wade in with Kobe, MJ, Maravich, or the Logo. In comparison to Kobe, while Wade did carry a fading Shaq (who still put up comparable numbers as Gasol did in LA), an old Alonzo Mourning, and an old Gary Peyton to a title, he's needed plenty of help for the Heat to sniff contention again (see Team Voltron, 2010-2014). Did Kobe need a 'Big 3' in the likes of Lebron, KG, Ray Allen, or Bosh after Shaq was traded away? Kobe got to the Finals and won world titles with the likes of Andrew Bynum and Jordan Farmar riding shotgun with him down the stretch. Both are great players and HOFers, no doubt about it. But that's the difference between the two.

And as an aside, I didn't drag Dominique into this debate either; you did. But for cracks and giggles, Nique isn't in my top-4 of All-time small forwards, either (that would be Bird, Dr. J., Elgin Baylor, and Lebron). Regardless, he's still my most favorite player of all time because, well, he played for my team. I'm selfish like that.

 

[benhillboy]

35 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I have the same thing going on.   I want to believe that Splitter can come back healthy and make us much better.   However, I don't know.

Len and Muhammad and Dieng are guys that I would look at and target with our first.   Let's be honest... Right now, we are not at a point where we need to be picking up project guys with first round picks.   We need those Meals Ready to Eat...  i.e. players who are on the cusp of doing something.. who have spent 1 or 2 years in the league and now are close to being good... they have outsourced their last 2 years of college for BU NBA experience.   It's a whole lot of guys that fit that bill.  Add in Leuer.  Add in Onlynk.  Add in Fournier and Henson.  Add in Bullock and Snell.  These guys won't move the meter for most fans because most fans wants us to go out and sign Lebron or Durant.   The impossibility of those signings elude them.   However, when you think about these guys, you start to look at their skillset and how it fits with our needs.  The worst thing that has happened to our franchise was losing DMC.  He was such a great fit for us... and I believe having him with Thabo and some help at the C position like Zaza or maybe even Splitter would have put us over.   Now, we have Horf trying to be Pero and all sorts of missing skillsets and instead of trying to fix our skillset problem, a lot of people just want to go back to superstar heroball wishes.   I believe like field of dreams... if you make it they will come.   In order for us to make it, we have to improve what we have.

 

 

I like most of those guys as well.  I've seen Bullock once, wouldn't know Leuer from a can of paint.  Fournier may be fool's gold.  I'd like to see Koufus more to make a judgement.

I look at the Warriors.  No one saw them coming.  All of their players have a glaring weakness, whether size (Green), physicality (Steph), handle and passing (Klay), post game (Bogut), mild temperament (Barnes), and so on.  Their fans were lamenting these just a few years ago.  But their perfect fit developed by their coaching staff, brass, and bench additions along the way almost totally masks their individual deficiencies.  One man's flaw is covered because it's the next man's strength.  That's all we need.  

OKC would be in the Finals with just a measly veteran PG .  Without one, they have two shooting guards taking 50 shots without assigning defensive tasks, so they're at home watching and rooting for LeBron.

I think Ferry understood fit much more than BudCox: an offense that featured Horf's mid range because Pero spaced.  DeMarre starting allowing Thabo to focus solely on defense.   Lou Will's isolation in response to Kyle's inability to create.

That Cavs team he constructed that went to the Finals looks more and more amazing.  Everyone on that team not named LeBron only had one strength, if that.  Yet and still they danced their way through the playoffs for years.

Edited June 2, 2016 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Dejay said:

With all that said, I'm still not lumping Wade in with Kobe, MJ, Maravich, or the Logo. In comparison to Kobe, while Wade did carry a fading Shaq (who still put up comparable numbers as Gasol did in LA), an old Alonzo Mourning, and an old Gary Peyton to a title, he's needed plenty of help for the Heat to sniff contention again (see Team Voltron, 2010-2014). Did Kobe need a 'Big 3' in the likes of Lebron, KG, Ray Allen, or Bosh after Shaq was traded away? Kobe got to the Finals and won world titles with the likes of Andrew Bynum and Jordan Farmar riding shotgun with him down the stretch. Both are great players and HOFers, no doubt about it. But that's the difference between the two.

And as an aside, I didn't drag Dominique into this debate either; you did. But for cracks and giggles, Nique isn't in my top-4 of All-time small forwards, either (that would be Bird, Dr. J., Elgin Baylor, and Lebron). Regardless, he's still my most favorite player of all time because, well, he played for my team. I'm selfish like that.

 

Maravich???  The Logo???

Wade would eat their lunch. 

My friend, it's a difference between  great play on the court and hype.  When you look at Dwayne Wade, you have probably the best 2 way SG ever.  Yes... that includes Jordan and Kobe.  Because neither Jordan or Kobe was as good on defense as Wade.   Wade has been marred by injury but still has 3 rings and averaged 23+ per year.  While it may seem small, you have to remember, that he has shared his spotlight with Lebron and Bosh.   When he finishes, he will be a 23, 6, and 5 guy. Not bad.  Your boy Maravich played less years as finished as a 24, 5, and 4 guy and was nowhere close on defense.

BTW.  Nique was part of the original premise... Hadn't had a superstar "since Nique".

 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

I like most of those guys as well.  I've seen Bullock once, wouldn't know Leuer from a can of paint.  Fournier may be fool's gold.  I'd like to see Koufus more to make a judgement.

I look at the Warriors.  No one saw them coming.  All of their players have a glaring weakness, whether size (Green), physicality (Steph), handle and passing (Klay), post game (Bogut), mild temperament (Barnes), and so on.  Their fans were lamenting these just a few years ago.  But their perfect fit developed by their coaching staff, brass, and bench additions along the way almost totally masks their individual deficiencies.  One man's flaw is covered because it's the next man's strength.  That's all we need.  

OKC would be in the Finals with just a measly veteran PG .  Without one, they have two shooting guards taking 50 shots without assigning defensive tasks, so they're at home watching and rooting for LeBron.

I think Ferry understood fit much more than BudCox: an offense that featured Horf's mid range because Pero spaced.  DeMarre starting allowing Thabo to focus solely on defense.   Lou Will's isolation in response to Kyle's inability to create.

That Cavs team he constructed that went to the Finals looks more and more amazing.  Everyone on that team not named LeBron only had one strength, if that.  Yet and still they danced their way through the playoffs for years.

I have to agree with all you say here.   Fit is grossly undervalued.   In OKC, I think if you replace Waiters with Afflalo, the Thunder are in the championship game.   It's that simple.   However, when it comes to us.. We have 2 unknowns.  Splitter's play and  THJr's development.

If we don't get Baze back, then we have about 20 million to use.

That being the case, we definitely need a scoring/defending SF.   Who is that guy??  I don't know. I would take a flyer on Green.  I would love to have a guy like Greek Freak.  However, we have to work in our own confines.  But that's the thing.

People talk about one PG must go...  I don't think that's smart.   Our two headed PGs really (for now) make one PG.  we shouldn't be swayed by contract, we have a really good rotation and it could be the rotation that leads us forward.

The only thing that remains is C.   What is Splitter?  Is he as good as we hope or is he fool's gold? I'm going to have to trust that Budcox (Bud) knows what they're doing.