Atlanta overpaid for Dwight at this stage and should have never paid Bazemore

[Gray Mule]

Sothron

I may be silly and think silly thoughts.  But hear me out.

Hawks are losing IN SPITE OF the play of D8.  We're getting blown away

every game.  Doesn't matter how good you think D8 is, Atlanta still is now

in the lottery and not the playoffs.  The Hawks could end up in last place

at the rate they are going.  They could end up in last place without D8.

D8 has done some great things as a Hawk.  Also, he has done some things

that have cost the team points.  He's lazy.

Is it all D8's fault that Hawks are being beaten badly?  Certainly not.  Is

he the reason Atlanta is being buried, game after game?  Nope.  There is

enough blame to go around so that many, many Hawks can have a generous

helping.  And, give Bud his share.

[Sothron]

4 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Sothron

I may be silly and think silly thoughts.  But hear me out.

Hawks are losing IN SPITE OF the play of D8.  We're getting blown away

every game.  Doesn't matter how good you think D8 is, Atlanta still is now

in the lottery and not the playoffs.  The Hawks could end up in last place

at the rate they are going.  They could end up in last place without D8.

D8 has done some great things as a Hawk.  Also, he has done some things

that have cost the team points.  He's lazy.

Is it all D8's fault that Hawks are being beaten badly?  Certainly not.  Is

he the reason Atlanta is being buried, game after game?  Nope.  There is

enough blame to go around so that many, many Hawks can have a generous

helping.  And, give Bud his share.

I did not say you were silly to be fair. :p

Dwight is not lazy. He's made a couple of dumb mistakes, absolutely, but those two plays did not cost us those games.

You are saying it doesn't matter how well D8 is doing because we are still losing. But imagine how much more we would be losing if Dwight wasn't there. We wouldn't be just under .500 we would be scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

 

 

[Thomas]

13 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

And, give Bud his share.

Agreed, Bud truly deserves an ample share. Have been a fan of his since his being here but his slow footedness with the starting lineup has cost us and now we're waiting for the obvious to happen to the second unit. And we're still waiting and waiting and it will cost us as well. We very well may be waiting in Jan. too.  

[thecampster]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Free agency was a wash. The draft was the only positive of the off-season.

Dwight is simply just a decent center at this point. He does somethings really really well and some most things bad. 

Bazemore wasn't good last year and he's even worse this year. Bud should be fired as a GM as I said in the offseason. This team makes too many bad GM decisions for the hardwood.

Please justify how 62.3% FG%, 13.8ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg in less than 29mpg is just a decent center. Also, please explain to me why the center shooting 62.3% is shooting 5.5 less shots per game than the point guard shooting 44%. Why is the point guard shooting more than the all-star, offensive power forward. Why when Dennis is driving to the basket is he thinking score first and pass only in an emergency. If I see him throw one more pass at Dwight's ankles after getting stuck driving in balls deep under the basket I'm gonna blow the roof off my house screaming.

Even more so, explain how 4th in the league in FG% and 4th in the league in rebounding is just "decent".  Your opinions are so hate-filled, lacking statistical back and unsubstantiated it's nauseating.

The current Hawks failures fall squarely on the shoulders of Coach Bud. The Hawks have serious defensive issues related to Korver's foot speed, Bazemore's size and a lack of adjustments. This all began with giving up Demarre and continued this season by dropping Edy in lieu of Ryan Kelly. The refusal to allow the rooks to play and to play to their strengths.  Great coaches adjust to what they have. Bud is coaching like a rookie this season and it shows. The team is giving up 4 more points per game over last season and 6.2 more points over the previous season. The team is showing significantly less dedication to defense in their style to play and minutes doled out. This is on Bud and your opinion that Dwight is a problem doesn't show up in the numbers.  When Dwight Howard is grabbing 4.5 ORB per game but only getting 8.8 shots per game (1/2 coming on put backs) it shows no commitment to playing inside out.  Jump shot misses lead to long rebounds and fast breaks for the opposing team. Bud needs to get control of this team and start running the offense through Paul and Dwight.

[Diesel]

I think as fans, we sometimes lose perspective of what good play really looks like.   Good play has to be seen under the microscope of expectation.   That's the problem with Supes.   He doesn't know Good play because Either he's not watching or he expects every C to play like Horford and stand on the 3 pt line and rebounds mean nothing. 

However, my expectation problem is that I expect us to pass the ball better than we have been doing.  I'm not in it for the isoball anymore.

 

Some of us see Dennis scoring 30points, with 4 assists and a bunch of isolations and say.. Wow.. that dude is playing good.  The problem is that it's a Marbury good and we need a Kidd good.   When we lost Horford and Teague we lost a ton of assists.  Half of the guys on the team live and die on getting the ball in their spots.   We're not getting that now.  So these guys who could get to their spots and wait on the pass that would allow them to make their move is not getting it.  So now they are forced to improvise and play more isolike.   That doesn't work with the personnel we have.  So as fans, immediately, we blame the player.  We blame the player for not scoring like he did last year or two years ago.  When the truth is that the offense has changed and they have to find a new way to get their points.   In short, it's going to take time and unfortunately patience.  This Renaissance in Toronto.  We've watched them.  They had to work their way to get to the play where everybody can get the ball in their spots.   That's why DD is looking so beastly lately.   I remember he struggled trying to shoot the three.  Now, he's the master of the midrange.  He doesn't even look at the 3 pt line. 

In that same way, either we have to find ways to get guys the ball in their spot or guys will have to change the way they play.  Either way, it's going to take some time and these are the growing pains.

Oh.. Smeddley asked why guys have to change?...  Well, part of that is Dwight's fault.  You don't bring one of the best PNR players in the history of the game and don't play PNR.  So some of this falls back on Bud.  If I were him, I'd be watching Utah Jazz tapes from 87-99.

 

 

 

 

[DS17Fanboy]

Dwight does two things very very well and sucks at most other things, although I've see some improvement in some of those areas and that says allot about his willingness.

[Lurker]

Except Howard has no offensive game and giving him more shots means more post shots. If the post was fed constantly going through Howard, it wouldn't help at all.

[macdaddy]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I'm giving it two more weeks, but two things are very obvious:

1. This is Howard's last chance. If yet another team continues to resemble a Howard cancer team and do so after just 11 games, that's it for him in the NBA.
2. Bazemore is nothing special but without space he will not survive. It's not going to get better for him.

So what were the Howard Cancer teams?   the Lakers?  They won like 45 games with him and then like 20 the next year.  the Rockets.  They won 50+ 2 years in a row and hit the WCF.   They were a .500 team last year because their coach sucked badly.   

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

I'm giving it two more weeks, but two things are very obvious:

1. This is Howard's last chance. If yet another team continues to resemble a Howard cancer team and do so after just 11 games, that's it for him in the NBA.
2. Bazemore is nothing special but without space he will not survive. It's not going to get better for him.

So what were the Howard Cancer teams?   the Lakers?  They won like 45 games with him and then like 20 the next year.  the Rockets.  They won 50+ 2 years in a row and hit the WCF.   They were a .500 team last year because their coach sucked badly.   

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I think as fans, we sometimes lose perspective of what good play really looks like.   Good play has to be seen under the microscope of expectation.   That's the problem with Supes.   He doesn't know Good play because Either he's not watching or he expects every C to play like Horford and stand on the 3 pt line and rebounds mean nothing. 

However, my expectation problem is that I expect us to pass the ball better than we have been doing.  I'm not in it for the isoball anymore.

 

Some of us see Dennis scoring 30points, with 4 assists and a bunch of isolations and say.. Wow.. that dude is playing good.  The problem is that it's a Marbury good and we need a Kidd good.   When we lost Horford and Teague we lost a ton of assists.  Half of the guys on the team live and die on getting the ball in their spots.   We're not getting that now.  So these guys who could get to their spots and wait on the pass that would allow them to make their move is not getting it.  So now they are forced to improvise and play more isolike.   That doesn't work with the personnel we have.  So as fans, immediately, we blame the player.  We blame the player for not scoring like he did last year or two years ago.  When the truth is that the offense has changed and they have to find a new way to get their points.   In short, it's going to take time and unfortunately patience.  This Renaissance in Toronto.  We've watched them.  They had to work their way to get to the play where everybody can get the ball in their spots.   That's why DD is looking so beastly lately.   I remember he struggled trying to shoot the three.  Now, he's the master of the midrange.  He doesn't even look at the 3 pt line. 

In that same way, either we have to find ways to get guys the ball in their spot or guys will have to change the way they play.  Either way, it's going to take some time and these are the growing pains.

Oh.. Smeddley asked why guys have to change?...  Well, part of that is Dwight's fault.  You don't bring one of the best PNR players in the history of the game and don't play PNR.  So some of this falls back on Bud.  If I were him, I'd be watching Utah Jazz tapes from 87-99.

 

 

 

 

Except Howard does not want to play PNR. He wants to post up all game. He refuses to roll to the basket a lot.

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

So what were the Howard Cancer teams?   the Lakers?  They won like 45 games with him and then like 20 the next year.  the Rockets.  They won 50+ 2 years in a row and hit the WCF.   They were a .500 team last year because their coach sucked badly.

The Lakers, Rockets, and Magic in the late day. Every team gets completely sick of him eventually.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, DS17Fanboy said:

Dwight does two things very very well and sucks at most other things, although I've see some improvement in some of those areas and that says allot about his willingness.

Unfortunately most of the team right now does one or zero things very well so again i'd say Dwight is doing good.  

[Duff_Man]

3 hours ago, AUhawksfan said:

So...how many games have you actually watched?

All of them (except one or two because the NBA app/Chromecast combo is ass and barely works and I am pissed I paid $100 for it).  Can't pass, can't shoot, can't cover anything outside of five feet and doesn't run the floor well. And people look and say 'REBOUNDZZZ!!" Ignoring that Dwight completely changes the entire philosophy of the team that was working. They put an emphasis on getting back on defense rather than get rebounds and since Howard can't run the floor effectively it has changed. 

He's a stat stuffer. His "defense" has dragged the team into a black hole of despair. But everyone got their local hero and will stick with him. 

[macdaddy]

Just now, Duff_Man said:

All of them (except one or two because the NBA app/Chromecast combo is ass and barely works and I am pissed I paid $100 for it).  Can't pass, can't shoot, can't cover anything outside of five feet and doesn't run the floor well. And people look and say 'REBOUNDZZZ!!" Ignoring that Dwight completely changes the entire philosophy of the team that was working. They put an emphasis on getting back on defense rather than get rebounds and since Howard can't run the floor effectively it has changed. 

He's a stat stuffer. His "defense" has dragged the team into a black hole of despair. But everyone got their local hero and will stick with him. 

If Bud or anyone else thought Dwight was going to come in here and we were going to run the same type of offense then shame on us.   So are you pissed at Dwight because he didn't morph into Horford when he put on the uniform.   He's doing exactly what he's always done and what he is capable of.   He's 30 years old.   We know his game.  It's not going to change that much.   

And was the team working?   We were headed in the wrong direction.   The results don't lie.   Should we have trotted out the same team again and expected to return to the 60 win team?

[Lurker]

I've seen multiple times in a game where Howard catches a pass near the basket and starts being too fine, eventually is surrounded, and turns it over or goes to the free throw line and doesn't make free throws. Folks, running the offense through Howard would fail horrendously. It's not on the PG that some of y'all love to bodyslam online at every opportunity. The offense already runs through Millsap as he's the PNR decision maker.

The reason for the defense failing is not just because of the major wing issue but it's also because a center that defends the pick and roll well is needed a heck of a lot more than a rebounder and rim protector today.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Except Howard has no offensive game and giving him more shots means more post shots. If the post was fed constantly going through Howard, it wouldn't help at all.

Here's the problem and the solution.

The problem is that Howard doesn't pass out of the post very well. 

However, if you feed him in the post, other guys will get better opportunities.    What that means is that you need movement.  Feed him on the PNR.. let others move.  Sometimes, a PG is going to have to come and get the ball from Howard... maybe a handoff and initiate the passing that way.  Still, you can't not feed the post or the PNR. 

 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I've seen multiple times in a game where Howard catches a pass near the basket and starts being too fine, eventually is surrounded, and turns it over or goes to the free throw line and doesn't make free throws. Folks, running the offense through Howard would fail horrendously. It's not on the PG that some of y'all love to bodyslam online at every opportunity. The offense already runs through Millsap as he's the PNR decision maker.

The reason for the defense failing is not just because of the major wing issue but it's also because a center that defends the pick and roll well is needed a heck of a lot more than a rebounder and rim protector today.

Pause.  What do you mean.. Being "too fine"?

Anyway.   You have to have ball movement when Howard has the ball.  He's not ShaqDiesel and he's not going to power his way to the bucket.   BUT.. he does have the ability to score out of the post..  IF we sit around and watch them converge on Howard, then that means shame on us. 

 

[Lurker]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Here's the problem and the solution.

The problem is that Howard doesn't pass out of the post very well. 

However, if you feed him in the post, other guys will get better opportunities.    What that means is that you need movement.  Feed him on the PNR.. let others move.  Sometimes, a PG is going to have to come and get the ball from Howard... maybe a handoff and initiate the passing that way.  Still, you can't not feed the post or the PNR. 

 

What if Howard just misses 10 post moves where he's not even close and turns it over 5 times? As that's his mantra. It's not going to get better.

Every time they try to go to Howard it fails horrendously until they give up and ignore him. He's been awful.

[Sothron]

16 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Please justify how 62.3% FG%, 13.8ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg in less than 29mpg is just a decent center. Also, please explain to me why the center shooting 62.3% is shooting 5.5 less shots per game than the point guard shooting 44%. Why is the point guard shooting more than the all-star, offensive power forward. Why when Dennis is driving to the basket is he thinking score first and pass only in an emergency. If I see him throw one more pass at Dwight's ankles after getting stuck driving in balls deep under the basket I'm gonna blow the roof off my house screaming.

Even more so, explain how 4th in the league in FG% and 4th in the league in rebounding is just "decent".  Your opinions are so hate-filled, lacking statistical back and unsubstantiated it's nauseating.

The current Hawks failures fall squarely on the shoulders of Coach Bud. The Hawks have serious defensive issues related to Korver's foot speed, Bazemore's size and a lack of adjustments. This all began with giving up Demarre and continued this season by dropping Edy in lieu of Ryan Kelly. The refusal to allow the rooks to play and to play to their strengths.  Great coaches adjust to what they have. Bud is coaching like a rookie this season and it shows. The team is giving up 4 more points per game over last season and 6.2 more points over the previous season. The team is showing significantly less dedication to defense in their style to play and minutes doled out. This is on Bud and your opinion that Dwight is a problem doesn't show up in the numbers.  When Dwight Howard is grabbing 4.5 ORB per game but only getting 8.8 shots per game (1/2 coming on put backs) it shows no commitment to playing inside out.  Jump shot misses lead to long rebounds and fast breaks for the opposing team. Bud needs to get control of this team and start running the offense through Paul and Dwight.

I think more people need to focus on that:

 62.3% FG%, 13.8ppg, 12.5 rpg, 1.6 bpg in less than 29mpg

Seriously. Stop and think about those numbers. Dwight has been amazing, quite frankly. He is putting up those numbers without even getting 30 minutes per game for crying out loud!

 

 

[Lurker]

Just now, Diesel said:

Pause.  What do you mean.. Being "too fine"?

Anyway.   You have to have ball movement when Howard has the ball.  He's not ShaqDiesel and he's not going to power his way to the bucket.   BUT.. he does have the ability to score out of the post..  IF we sit around and watch them converge on Howard, then that means shame on us. 

 

There is movement off the ball. He just doesn't pass. At all. And it's never going to change. This is going to fail horrendously.

[Lurker]

And no, unless Howard barely has to move, he can't score in the post. He's one of the worst post scorers in the game by miles and miles, Millsap the best.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Lurker