He wouldn't just say this....

[Bankingitbig]

44 minutes ago, Diesel said:

He did so much that New Orleans went out and PAID Rondo to be their PG.    He did so much that he led a team with Anthony Davis to a 34 win record.   He did so much that with Davis and Boogie Cousins... they were 15-18 in the last 3 months of last season. 

Now... they may be a whole lot better this year but Philly needed a PG not a combo guard.  Maybe NO is finding out now what Philly knew then.

Keep reaching. We don't even know if Rondo will start. Either way, I usually think it is a positive to have a player versatile enough to play two positions. Also I like how you failed to mention Holiday getting the Pelicans into the playoffs the second year after he was traded. 34 wins is almost double what Noel achieved this year.... So like I said before, Holiday has achieved a lot more than those assets generated in the trade thus far. You do realize that NO just signed Holiday to a $126m/5year deal right? Noel is still hoping someone will give him a contract so he doesn't have to just sign that lousy qualifying offer. But yea damn win right there. So much so that the 76ers had to quickly cut bait with him for a bunch of nothing.

Philly actually does need a combo guard now since they have Simmons, but whatever.

37 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Oh.. .Bank.. one last thing on the trade.. before you go all willy neally. I forgot to also mention:

 

Jrue Holiday, Pierre Jackson  for  Noel, 1st round pick in 2014 draft (lottery)...

and

They drafted Michael Carter Williams (to replace Holiday) who won the rookie of the year award that year... in a landslide.

If we did that... I don't think that there would be a Hawks fan that hated the GM. 

 

Keep reaching. Not sure what MCW has to do with the trade, but I'll play along with you. What did they end up doing with MCW and why? If you think the Hawks are following the same path, then you should expect Collins to be traded next year right? Why hasn't Bembry or Prince been traded similar to how MCW was?

Lol some Hawks fans were mad that we traded Korver for a future 1st round pick. You were mad that we took on Crawford's measly contract for a first round pick. Could you imagine how upset Hawks fans would be if we traded a ROY (despite it being a weak rookie class) for a first round pick? I can only imagine how pissed you would be since you think taking on Crawford wasn't worth the 1st round pick. Nice contradictions.

[Bankingitbig]

43 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Oh.. .Bank.. one last thing on the trade.. before you go all willy neally. I forgot to also mention:

 

Jrue Holiday, Pierre Jackson  for  Noel, 1st round pick in 2014 draft (lottery)...

and

They drafted Michael Carter Williams (to replace Holiday) who won the rookie of the year award that year... in a landslide.

If we did that... I don't think that there would be a Hawks fan that hated the GM. 

 

Oh and another thing... Why do you think MCW won ROY that year? Probably because the 76ers had no one else on the roster to play and he averaged way more minutes than any of the other candidates. Fun fact for you: The oldest player on their roster that year was Eric Maynor at age 26 who played a whopping 8 games for them. They wanted them vets though. Not to mention they had a total of 23 players play at least one game for them that season. How close do you think Schlenk will ever get to that 23 figure?

[AHF]

D - A lot of the Philly moves look pretty sound based on where they are today but don't get confused and start trying to argue that Philly wanted vets in the first year of their rebuild.  They tore that place down to the ground.  We kept a significant part of the foundation for the future with Dennis, Bembry, and Prince.  Those guys would all be gone for future picks in a Philly repeat.  This isn't a Philly repeat.

It seems like you are arguing more that we should be trying to replicate Philly's model.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

D - A lot of the Philly moves look pretty sound based on where they are today but don't get confused and start trying to argue that Philly wanted vets in the first year of their rebuild.  They tore that place down to the ground.  We kept a significant part of the foundation for the future with Dennis, Bembry, and Prince.  Those guys would all be gone for future picks in a Philly repeat.  This isn't a Philly repeat.

It seems like you are arguing more that we should be trying to replicate Philly's model.

I think when you look at what Philly did and what we didn't do.. the only reason we didn't follow suite was we wasn't offered the same deals. 

If somebody offered us 2 first round lottery picks... Like DeArron and a first for Dennis.. You and I both know that Dennis would be gone.  Bembry has NO value.  and Prince.. he is worth holding on to, but again.. nobody is shooting us offers. 

Secondly.  Philly wasn't coming off of a playoff run with their team that they had.   What was there worth keeping?? The best guy on a lottery team?  Hawes?  Evan Turner?  Those guys were OK but losing them for draft picks was a good gamble.  And in most of their trading, they made good trades.  It's not like it was haphazard.  I mean, the way you mention it is like Philly gave up good players for bubble gum and glowsticks.  No, they got  first rounders and lottery picks.  They still haven't been compensated by the Lakers yet but they are guaranteed the Lakers first round pick next year. 

Now.. i want you to see one thing.  Ainge does the exact same thing as Hinkie.  He traded talent for picks.  The only thing is that he had developing players because his team that he dismantled was a championship team.  While Ainge is in the stage now where he has managed to convert capspace into allstar Talent.. the fact that he's holding a cache of first round picks makes him look like a genius.   Hinke has had injured players in the person of Simmons and Embiid but when Healthy, his team may be more talented than Ainge's.   My thoughts on Schlenk is Schlenk if we're going to be a tank team then let us get the better of these deals like Boston and Philly did and let us not get so stuck on mediocrity because we drafted it. 

 

 

[AHF]

If you want to compare what Ainge did, he did he equivalent of trading Millsap and Horford for a crazy package of picks.   An Ainge style rebuild would have started under Budcox.  With Sap and Horford walking, it is like Bos starting their rebuild after PP and KG had already left the building.

On Philly, they would not have accepted keeping Dennis and Prince.  They would deal them for the best available deal and ensure their record was in the bottom 3.  They would not accept a pick like #7.

[Diesel]

37 minutes ago, AHF said:

If you want to compare what Ainge did, he did he equivalent of trading Millsap and Horford for a crazy package of picks.   An Ainge style rebuild would have started under Budcox.  With Sap and Horford walking, it is like Bos starting their rebuild after PP and KG had already left the building.

On Philly, they would not have accepted keeping Dennis and Prince.  They would deal them for the best available deal and ensure their record was in the bottom 3.  They would not accept a pick like #7.

About Boston...  I can agree... However, we did give up Sap and Dwight.  You may not have liked Dwight and he may not have been a good fit, but he's still an exceptional rebounder and can be a good defender given a scheme.

On Philly.  The main major difference is Dennis... So let's talk about why we kept Dennis and why they dealt Holiday.

They dealt Holiday because:

• 2 lottery picks. 
• Holiday's contract would be up through the rebuild
• They had the chance to draft Micheal Carter Williams. 

We held on to Dennis because:

• Nobody is offering 2 lottery picks. 
• Dennis is signed for the next 4 years. 
• We didn't have a lottery pick to replace Dennis with. 

It's not because Schlenk is so gong ho to keep Dennis as the captain of Hawks basketball.  It's just that nobody is banging down our door for Dennis yet. 

When Schlenk came in, he said in an interview that he didn't want to make too many changes all at once.  Maybe holding on to the guys we held on to is him trying to keep true to that.  Because as we look around, Dennis, Baze, Bembry, Moose, and Prince are all that's left from last year's team and Dennis/Baze be the only starters.

Let me float this question to you.

I see you mention... young guys like Dennis, Bembry, and Prince when you talk about how Schlenk is different than Hinkie.  Why do you never mention Baze?  Is it because you believe that Baze contract is untradable?  If that's the case, then you concede that trading and getting something back is on the top of a GM's list when he is conducting a firesale.  right.  Well, being that Philly made many great moves and few bad moves... why do you criticize their firesale as something other than what we're doing?

 

[AHF]

I don't mention Baze because I think his contract is toxic and he doesn't have the potential to be a core player for the future.  If we could give him away, I think we would but he fits what Bud wants to do (even if he isn't that effective) and so we won't attach future picks to him in order to unload him or take on a contract like Plumlee.

I didn't like the Dwight deal but he was never going to bring the kind of return that PP and KG did.  Sap was an UFA with no incentive to be traded so Schlenk never had any leverage with him.  The time to get real value for Sap was sometime over the last two seasons - not once he was unrestricted.

And yes I think we are approaching this rebuild differently from Philly for the reasons I've mentioned.  They would have done whatever it took to be among the 3 worst teams in the league every year for the next several years and brought back as much future value as possible.  We aren't taking that approach.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't mention Baze because I think his contract is toxic and he doesn't have the potential to be a core player for the future.  If we could give him away, I think we would but he fits what Bud wants to do (even if he isn't that effective) and so we won't attach future picks to him in order to unload him or take on a contract like Plumlee.

I didn't like the Dwight deal but he was never going to bring the kind of return that PP and KG did.  Sap was an UFA with no incentive to be traded so Schlenk never had any leverage with him.  The time to get real value for Sap was sometime over the last two seasons - not once he was unrestricted.

And yes I think we are approaching this rebuild differently from Philly for the reasons I've mentioned.  They would have done whatever it took to be among the 3 worst teams in the league every year for the next several years and brought back as much future value as possible.  We aren't taking that approach.

You make the last statement like we won't be one of the 3 worst teams in the league?

I agree on Baze... and because of that, I say... the way Schlenk moves is not so different from the way Hinkie did.  Schlenk just have some better contract situations and Hinkie had better deals to come his way.  Now.. if the news come out that we turned down 2 first rounders (one being a sure lottery pick) for Dennis... then I would agree with you.   However, what we see is the same thing... Cut the big contracts, make deals for picks.. .find value... Lose competitively. 

[AHF]

Agree to disagree.  Philly was burning the house down regardless of what it takes.  They would not be signing guys like Ilya and Dedmon and keeping the team's best player in the playoffs last season who all significantly raise the probability (particularly in combination with whatever players we draft this next year) that the team doesn't end up among the worst 3 teams in the league the next several seasons.  I don't think Schlenk is trying to be the worst team in the league for a minimum of the next 3 years like I think Hinkie was trying to do in Philly.

[Bankingitbig]

24 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

They dealt Holiday because:

• 2 lottery picks. 
• Holiday's contract would be up through the rebuild
• They had the chance to draft Micheal Carter Williams. 

We held on to Dennis because:

• Nobody is offering 2 lottery picks. 
• Dennis is signed for the next 4 years. 
• We didn't have a lottery pick to replace Dennis with. 

 

Inaccurate conclusions and more reaches from you... They had the option to extend Holiday and had him as RFA. They could have literally held on to him for another 4 or even 5 years if they wanted. Same amount of years that we have Schröder. Instead, Hinkie knew they weren't ready to compete yet and that Holiday would be a detriment to ensuring a top pick in future drafts. Thus why he is traded. Not sure how many times we have to rehash that with you ignoring the main premise....

Here you are stuck on the two lottery picks again in regards to Dennis while missing the complete strategy of what Hinkie did. Not sure how to spell it out even clearer for you. Hinkie literally traded all assets for future assets in order to ensure that he would have the best odds of a high draft pick the following years. This is also why he didn't want productive vets on his team (and yes AK47 doesn't count... lol). Thus, if Hinkie was in Schlenk's position, he would quickly realize that having Dennis on the team would be a detriment to ensuring the best possible odds of a high draft pick. Thus, he would trade Dennis for the best possible return - whatever that may be, whether it is 1 first round pick or 2 first round picks - doesn't matter he just didn't want his team winning in the near-term. Dennis being signed for next 4 years has nothing to do with this. See MCW who the 76ers had for another 3 years and just came off winning ROY, but instead what did Hinkie do? He traded him for a future pick because he didn't want to win in the near-term. I like how you avoid mentioning that though.

Probably my last post about all this because its obviously a waste of time discussing with you the way you pick and choose which "facts" you want to use. You clearly don't understand the way Hinkie tried building his team, so it's pretty fruitless to have a discussion about it. You still haven't even acknowledged the signings of Dedmon and Ilyasova and how that completely goes against anything Hinkie would have done when he first became GM. Also the fact that the 76ers nearly missed the salary floor in two years because Hinkie did not care about putting together a roster that could win in the near-term. Completely different from what Schlenk has done this offseason.

20 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Cut the big contracts, make deals for picks.. .find value... Lose competitively. 

Except if Schlenk did this, then Schröder would have been one of the first players traded for the best deal available regardless of how many first rounders it would be.... As Schröder is 1. a big contract and 2, doesn't fit the "lose competitively" part... I'll concede to you that Schröder won't be able to net the same return that a 22-year old all-star PG in Jrue Holiday did back when Hinkie traded him, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about in terms of Hinkie's strategy.

[Diesel]

Bank... I'll show you my facts and you show me yours... (Not your opinions).

Here's the write up on the trade at  draft night. 

Quote

By trading for Noel, the former Kentucky center, it would seem to indicate the 76ers don't have a lot of interest in re-signing Andrew Bynum. Trading Holiday, an All-Star, is a major price to pay, but the 2014 first-round pick could be incredibly valuable in the long term as next year's draft is viewed as one of the more talented and deep in recent memory. 

It's a risky move for the 76ers but one that could pay off in the long run. Holiday is a terrific player, but the Sixers are under new front-office management and are looking to build a new roster. 

With their No. 11 pick, the Sixers took guard Michael Carter-Williams from Syracuse to replace Holiday, so really, the overall deal works out pretty nicely for the Sixers. They're beginning a bit of youth rebuild around Noel and Carter-Williams, but that's two lottery picks and potentially another one next season. I'd say the Sixers are off to a great start. 

Here's a write up on the trade a year later.

Quote

After all of the hand wringing, here we are. For Holiday (and the 2nd rounder), the Sixers got Noel and the 10th pick in the 2014. Two top ten picks for their best player, and really, their only tradeable asset with value. Of course, trading Holiday also allowed the Sixers to pick Michael Carter-Williams, who, as you may have heard, won the Rookie of the Year Award in a landslide.

Hinkie was asked on multiple occasions if he was satisfied with the return on the trade of his star player, and continued to emphasize his process-over-result mentality. Tuesday night, he was asked, now that he knows the result, how he assessed the trade he had made a year before. He paused for a few seconds, to the point where you could see the wheels turning in his head, almost like he wanted to say "YEP, NAILED IT!" before strolling out the door Vince McMahon-style yelling "HINKIE OUT!" to a group of puzzled reporters. What he said instead was more meaningful.

"It's not about how it turns out." Hinkie said, and repeated it again for emphasis. "It's about what you knew at the time, and how that plays out for your particular team and their particular team."

He compared it to comments he had made about the Andrew Bynum trade upon his hiring, saying "It's a really tough way to live to judge it as good or bad for you or others based on how it turns out, because sometimes lots of things happen that you couldn't have known."

 After doing more research for YOU Bank... look what I discovered.

 

Quote

Yesterday, it was announced the NBA had ordered the Philadelphia Sixers to pay $3 million dollars to the New Orleans Pelicans for failing to disclose Jrue Holiday's medical history.

The sources said Holiday played with stress fractures in his lower right leg during his final season with the Sixers. However, the sources said, those injures weren't fully disclosed to the Pelicans.

Damn.  Henkie is looking more and more like trader Joe...

[AHF]

Not sure how that last post contradicts anything Bank said.  Agree with Bank's take on Philly's total strategy.

[MaceCase]

I think it's being overlooked that Hinkie selected 3 players with high picks that he knew wouldn't contribute to his team for at least a year due to injury or playing overseas.  That goes a long way towards ensuring your team doesn't win a lot of games in itself.  I'd see the comparison if Schlenk selected Harry Giles and sat him through SL or Anzejs Pasecniks and left him overseas.........along with trading Dennis and not signing Musky, Ersan, or Dedmon.

[AHF]

4 hours ago, MaceCase said:

I think it's being overlooked that Hinkie selected 3 players with high picks that he knew wouldn't contribute to his team for at least a year due to injury or playing overseas.  That goes a long way towards ensuring your team doesn't win a lot of games in itself.  I'd see the comparison if Schlenk selected Harry Giles and sat him through SL or Anzejs Pasecniks and left him overseas.........along with trading Dennis and not signing Musky, Ersan, or Dedmon.

I mentioned it previously and 100% agree.  It is the combination of selling impact players, taking players whose impact would be delayed, avoiding free agents that would be expected to contribute to a winning team, etc.  He absolutely wanted to be sure of finishing at the bottom of the league for several years.

[Diesel]

17 hours ago, MaceCase said:

I think it's being overlooked that Hinkie selected 3 players with high picks that he knew wouldn't contribute to his team for at least a year due to injury or playing overseas.  That goes a long way towards ensuring your team doesn't win a lot of games in itself.  I'd see the comparison if Schlenk selected Harry Giles and sat him through SL or Anzejs Pasecniks and left him overseas.........along with trading Dennis and not signing Musky, Ersan, or Dedmon.

BUT... The three players are generational talent types.  I mean.  Ben Simmons has been talked about as being the next great Forward.  Embiid was great in College.   Moreover, Simmons didn't get injured until after he was a sixer. 

IF he would have passed over those players... I don't think his fanbase would have been happy with him at all.   He's looking like a genius because his gambles are paying off. 

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, AHF said:

I mentioned it previously and 100% agree.  It is the combination of selling impact players, taking players whose impact would be delayed, avoiding free agents that would be expected to contribute to a winning team, etc.  He absolutely wanted to be sure of finishing at the bottom of the league for several years.

What?? Haven't we done the same?

Sap, D8, and THJr I would say are impact players. 

We didn't pick up any free agents that would make us much better.  

We did pick up Crawford and basically paid him to go away. 

In Fact having Crawford count against our cap is a great excuse for not bringing in an impact player that would contribute to winning. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

What?? Haven't we done the same?

No we haven't.  We kept our young promising players on good contracts.  Philly didn't.

We dealt our over 30 players and refused to enter into a patently over market match.   I think we would refuse Baze if we had the choice or could give him away.  Philly ditched vets too.  Both teams traded for vets that they didn't intend to keep.  Both of us wanted future pics and to be rid of bad contracts.  

We drafted the best player for immediate impact.  Phillly didn't.  (No one is talking about Simmons re non-availability in the draft - those picks are Noel, Embiid, and Sario).

We signed veteran productive role players.  Philly didn't.  

There is some overlap but not the same at all.

 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

No we haven't.  We kept our young promising players on good contracts.  Philly didn't.

 

But Philly got good deals for those contracts.   Moreover, those young promising players wasn't that good.  Evan Turner.  Hawes.  MCW.  The only one that was good was Holiday and they got 2 first rounders for him.. one lottery.. and they knew that Holiday had stress fractures. 

 

 

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

But Philly got good deals for those contracts.   Moreover, those young promising players wasn't that good.  Evan Turner.  Hawes.  MCW.  The only one that was good was Holiday and they got 2 first rounders for him.. one lottery.. and they knew that Holiday had stress fractures. 

 

 

Those young players would have won them more games which is what Philly was not willing to accept but we are.  I feel like I am seeing crazy whiplash where you are arguing that MCW was a great trade get for Philly as ROY and then that he is trash where we are talking about young talent.  They flipped all these guys (including MCW) for future picks, they refused to sign any productive vets, they drafted people who would not even see the floor in their early career, etc. all so they wouldn't win anything in the first 3 years.  We aren't doing that.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Those young players would have won them more games which is what Philly was not willing to accept but we are.  I feel like I am seeing crazy whiplash where you are arguing that MCW was a great trade get for Philly as ROY and then that he is trash where we are talking about young talent.  They flipped all these guys (including MCW) for future picks, they refused to sign any productive vets, they drafted people who would not even see the floor in their early career, etc. all so they wouldn't win anything in the first 3 years.  We aren't doing that.

He don't get @AHF....just leave it alone. Thats what Im doing.

 

He believes Schlenk is tanking on purpose...ok let him believe that while the rest of us see it as "hey if these young guys we have here happen to make the playoffs this season coming up great but we aren't spending money on players close to 30 years of age or are 30+ years of age just to make the playoffs to lose".

Somehow @Diesel sees that as tanking because we aren't signing old veterans to purposely get in the playoffs. ....I understand you want our hawks to make the playoffs but lets me real, say howard and millsap get us back to playoffs for the 11th straight year...you really think we are going to suddenly start beating Lebron, who has owned the EAST for 7 straight years soon to be 8?...I mean even boston has now improved getting gordon hayward another 2 way player who can actually help isaiah with the scoring load and they technically now have 3 all star players though none are superstars and they STILL will likely get swept in the ECF this upcoming season!....this is the NBA where shit is extremely PREDICTABLE!

Edited July 20, 2017 by JTB