TheNorthCydeRises Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 2 hours ago, Alex said: Dennis: 21 PPG on terrible all around shooting. Under 40% from the field and under 30% from three. Bazemore: 14 PPG on terrible all around shooting. Comparable to Dennis shooting numbers. Prince: 12 PPG on decent shooting. 45% from the field and 40% from deep. I think he will get open looks from distance and hit them at a good clip, just not a ton of makes from out there. Just wanted to see if there was ever a PG in NBA history that averaged 21 ppg, but shot under 40% FG and under 30% from 3. My initial thought was Iverson, but I wasn't sure if he shot sub 40% in a season. ( doing search ) Interesting list. Bob Cousy ( 2x ): 1951 - 52 . . 1954 - 55 * 21.7 ppg - 36.9% FG - 6.7 asst . . ( 51 - 52 ) . . Team record: 43 - 23 * 21.2 ppg - 39.7% FG - 7.8 asst . . ( 54 - 55 ) . . Team record: 36 - 36 Allen Iverson ( 2x ): 2001 - 02 . . 2003 - 04 * 31.4 ppg - 39.8% FG - 29.1% 3FG - 5.5 asst . . . ( 01 - 02 ) . . Team Record: 43 - 39 * 26.4 ppg - 38.7% FG - 28.6% 3FG - 6.8 asst . . . ( 03 - 04 ) . . Team Record: 33 - 49 Michael Adams: 1990 - 91 * 26.5 ppg - 39.4% FG - 29.6% 3FG - 10.5 asst . . . Team Record: 20 - 62 . . . ( 1st in scoring - last in defense ) Richie Guerin: 1960 - 61 * 21.8 ppg - 39.6 FG% - 6.4 asst . . . Team Record: 21 - 58 Baron Davis: 2003 - 04 * 22.9 ppg - 39.5% FG - 32.1% 3FG - 7.5 asst . . . Team Record: 41 - 41 Other non-PGs who have done this are Jerry Stackhouse, Jamal Mashburn, Antoine Walker, and Kobe Bryant 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plainview1981 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 (edited) Dennis: 19.5 PPG. 7.5 APG Baze: 12.5 PPG 4.5 RPG 3 APG Prince 12 PPG 4.7 RPG 1.5 APG Ersan 13 PPG 6.5 RPG Dedmond: 8 PPG 9.5 RPG Marco Bellinelli: 11 PPG John Collins 9.5 PPG 7.5 RPG It's tough to see anyone else contributing too much. I wouldn't be shocked if Marco ends up starting. Edited July 29, 2017 by Hotlanta1981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Peoriabird said: There are plenty of point guards scoring over 20 ppg and its good for their respective teams so I'm not sure what is meant by your statement. The more Dennis is scoring, the more the defense is focusing him. He'll be forcing it. The purpose of his scoring and penetration is to open up opportunities for others. If Dennis' scoring really goes up another 3 points per game (considering he already led us in shot attempts last year), it will probably take another 3+ shot attempts to get there. This means less shot attempts for others and very stagnant defense. The true improvement from Dennis would be another 2 assists per game. I'd love to see him go to 10 but I don't think some people understand how absolutely impressive 8 assists would be in today's game. 8 Assists per game would have been good for 8th in the NBA last year. Harden led the league with 11.2, Wall at 10.7. In order for Dennis to take the next step, making his teammates better is the next logical move. And by the way, I am not the typical Atlanta fan and I'm not liking your snide comments on every reply. If you can't win with logic and facts revert to name calling. If you want me to take you seriously, up your game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 One thing you also need to realize, is every "scoring" pg right now in Dennis' league assists wise are much stronger than he is. The kid is talented but if he keeps throwing his body at centers 10 times a game he's going to have a very short career and eventually be drinking his dinner through a straw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted July 29, 2017 Premium Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 31 minutes ago, thecampster said: One thing you also need to realize, is every "scoring" pg right now in Dennis' league assists wise are much stronger than he is. The kid is talented but if he keeps throwing his body at centers 10 times a game he's going to have a very short career and eventually be drinking his dinner through a straw. And they have proven talent to pass it to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazer Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 8 hours ago, Peoriabird said: In fact one can make the argument that with Howard clogging the middle last year made Dennis ability to score in the paint a lot harder. Now getting into the paint should be easier the Menace. Yup, the spacing should be better this year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted July 29, 2017 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 7 hours ago, thecampster said: The more Dennis is scoring, the more the defense is focusing him. He'll be forcing it. The purpose of his scoring and penetration is to open up opportunities for others. If Dennis' scoring really goes up another 3 points per game (considering he already led us in shot attempts last year), it will probably take another 3+ shot attempts to get there. This means less shot attempts for others and very stagnant defense. Ok lets try to dissect your premise that scoring point guard hurts the rest of the team. Let's start with the teams that went the furthest in the playoff and in the case with Houston, James Hardin is the defacto point guard on that team. Golden state: point guard Stephen Curry Led the team in scoring @ 25.3 ppg and took the most shots on the team Cleveland: point guard Kyrie Irving second on the team in point per game @23.1 ppg but took the most shot on the team Boston: point guard Isaiah Thomas led the team in scoring@ 28.9 ppg and took the most shots on the team Houston: Point guard James Hardin led the team in scoring @ 29.1ppg and took the most shot on the team. Washington: Point Guard John Wall led the team in scoring @ 23.1 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Utah: Point guard George Hill second on the team in scoring @ 16.5 ppg and took the second most shots on the team Clippers: point guard Chris Paul second on the team in scoring @ 18.1 ppg and second on the team in shots per game Raptors: point guard Kyle Lowry second on the team in scoring @ 22.4 ppg and second on the team in shot attempts OKC: point guard Russel Westbrook led the team in scoring @ 31.6 ppg and took the most shots on the team Memphis: Point guard Mike Conley Led the team in scoring @ 20.5 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Anyway you get the point ( no pun intended ) Most of the successful team's point guard not only the lead their teams in scoring ( in some cases 2nd leading scorer) but also takes the majority of the shots. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthCydeRises Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 51 minutes ago, Peoriabird said: Ok lets try to dissect your premise that scoring point guard hurts the rest of the team. Let's start with the teams that went the furthest in the playoff and in the case with Houston, James Hardin is the defacto point guard on that team. Golden state: point guard Stephen Curry Led the team in scoring @ 25.3 ppg and took the most shots on the team Cleveland: point guard Kyrie Irving second on the team in point per game @23.1 ppg but took the most shot on the team Boston: point guard Isaiah Thomas led the team in scoring@ 28.9 ppg and took the most shots on the team Houston: Point guard James Hardin led the team in scoring @ 29.1ppg and took the most shot on the team. Washington: Point Guard John Wall led the team in scoring @ 23.1 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Utah: Point guard George Hill second on the team in scoring @ 16.5 ppg and took the second most shots on the team Clippers: point guard Chris Paul second on the team in scoring @ 18.1 ppg and second on the team in shots per game Raptors: point guard Kyle Lowry second on the team in scoring @ 22.4 ppg and second on the team in shot attempts OKC: point guard Russel Westbrook led the team in scoring @ 31.6 ppg and took the most shots on the team Memphis: Point guard Mike Conley Led the team in scoring @ 20.5 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Anyway you get the point ( no pun intended ) Most of the successful team's point guard not only the lead their teams in scoring ( in some cases 2nd leading scorer) but also takes the majority of the shots. What you say is true. The key for Dennis is if he can shoot a decent percentage from the field and from 3. It would also help if others can set Dennis up with decent shots. In this "new" NBA, it's almost better for the PG to be a high scorer that shoots a decent percentage, than a high assist man. Dennis has few proven scorers around him, so he'll have to be the one that scores the basketball. I say that the Hawks need to go ahead and start Bembry over Baze at the 2, although I think the plan may be to have Bembry be the backup PG. Starting Bembry would put an extra ball handler and playmaker on the floor with him, that could make it easier for Dennis to score the basketball. While I don't think the Hawks can win more than 35 games, I'm rooting for Dennis to take that next step up into the top 10 PG list. He's really our only hope of not going into the abyss. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted July 29, 2017 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 He has given us no indication that he can't take the next step which makes even more puzzling that he has so many Debbie doubters in Atlanta. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted July 29, 2017 Moderators Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 5 hours ago, Peoriabird said: He has given us no indication that he can't take the next step which makes even more puzzling that he has so many Debbie doubters in Atlanta. Not sure if you are including me in there but I nailed his stats in last year's prediction thread and was very happy with what he showed last season. I am optimistic he will continue to improve this year even with a falloff in shooting % related to the factors previously mentioned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted July 29, 2017 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 36 minutes ago, AHF said: Not sure if you are including me in there but I nailed his stats in last year's prediction thread and was very happy with what he showed last season. I am optimistic he will continue to improve this year even with a falloff in shooting % related to the factors previously mentioned. Not at all but you saw some of the predictions...under 40% shooting and 4.5 turnovers per game...I find it ridiculous to think that way about one of your own 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 You make a thread and cry at the results....geesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 10 hours ago, Peoriabird said: Ok lets try to dissect your premise that scoring point guard hurts the rest of the team. Let's start with the teams that went the furthest in the playoff and in the case with Houston, James Hardin is the defacto point guard on that team. Golden state: point guard Stephen Curry Led the team in scoring @ 25.3 ppg and took the most shots on the team Cleveland: point guard Kyrie Irving second on the team in point per game @23.1 ppg but took the most shot on the team Boston: point guard Isaiah Thomas led the team in scoring@ 28.9 ppg and took the most shots on the team Houston: Point guard James Hardin led the team in scoring @ 29.1ppg and took the most shot on the team. Washington: Point Guard John Wall led the team in scoring @ 23.1 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Utah: Point guard George Hill second on the team in scoring @ 16.5 ppg and took the second most shots on the team Clippers: point guard Chris Paul second on the team in scoring @ 18.1 ppg and second on the team in shots per game Raptors: point guard Kyle Lowry second on the team in scoring @ 22.4 ppg and second on the team in shot attempts OKC: point guard Russel Westbrook led the team in scoring @ 31.6 ppg and took the most shots on the team Memphis: Point guard Mike Conley Led the team in scoring @ 20.5 ppg and took the most shots on the team. Anyway you get the point ( no pun intended ) Most of the successful team's point guard not only the lead their teams in scoring ( in some cases 2nd leading scorer) but also takes the majority of the shots. So on this list I see 2 NBA champs. 1 of them had Lebron, the other had Thompson, Green and most recently Durant. Additionally, in this list Dennis most favorably relates to whom??? Who has Dennis' skillset? Again, I'm just being realistic here. Last season Dennis was 18/6/3 (rounded). To expect him at 24 to take a huge leap forward while not sacrificing efficiency is crazy. Let's use Conley as your example. Conley at 23. 13.7/6.5/3. His next 5 seasons. 12.7/6.5/2.5 14.6/6.1/2.1 17.2/6.0/2.9 15.8/5.4/3.0 15.3/6.1/2.9 20.5/6.3/3.5 Disturbingly consistent and took his "next step" scoring at 29 not 23. Steph Curry 23 = 18.6/5/8/3.9 24 14.7/5.3/3.4 He's 25-27 and averaged around 23.5 ppg but takes his big leap at 28 to 30.1 ppg then down to 25.3. @23.8 and 25.3 he wins the NBA championship but at 30.1 the team is flawed and loses. Kyrie did nothing without Lebron. Boston felt so flawed they added Horford and flamed out when their still existent flaws showed. What I think disturbs me most about your list is you're comparing 23 year old, very immature Dennis to pretty much every great passer in the NBA. The kid is 23....throwing the franchise on his back at this age is a bit premature. At no point have I said "Dennis is terrible, throw the bum out". What I have said is he is still maturing and I refuse to judge him as a complete package until he is at least 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted July 29, 2017 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 1 hour ago, thecampster said: So on this list I see 2 NBA champs. 1 of them had Lebron, the other had Thompson, Green and most recently Durant. Additionally, in this list Dennis most favorably relates to whom??? Who has Dennis' skillset? Again, I'm just being realistic here. Last season Dennis was 18/6/3 (rounded). To expect him at 24 to take a huge leap forward while not sacrificing efficiency is crazy. Let's use Conley as your example. Conley at 23. 13.7/6.5/3. His next 5 seasons. 12.7/6.5/2.5 14.6/6.1/2.1 17.2/6.0/2.9 15.8/5.4/3.0 15.3/6.1/2.9 20.5/6.3/3.5 Disturbingly consistent and took his "next step" scoring at 29 not 23. Steph Curry 23 = 18.6/5/8/3.9 24 14.7/5.3/3.4 He's 25-27 and averaged around 23.5 ppg but takes his big leap at 28 to 30.1 ppg then down to 25.3. @23.8 and 25.3 he wins the NBA championship but at 30.1 the team is flawed and loses. Kyrie did nothing without Lebron. Boston felt so flawed they added Horford and flamed out when their still existent flaws showed. What I think disturbs me most about your list is you're comparing 23 year old, very immature Dennis to pretty much every great passer in the NBA. The kid is 23....throwing the franchise on his back at this age is a bit premature. At no point have I said "Dennis is terrible, throw the bum out". What I have said is he is still maturing and I refuse to judge him as a complete package until he is at least 25. I don't know what you are talking about but I was just responding to the assertion that if Dennis averaged over 20 ppg, it would automatically be bad for the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurupt Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 The retardation in this thread is unreal. Unbearable to read posts here. Schröder was the best Hawks player in the playoffs, scoring 24.7 ppg with 7.7 assists while shooting 45.5% overall and 42.5% from 3 - and doing it against a red hot John Wall. Do you really think that the Wizards did not try to stop him? Diesel and his boys talking about Hardayway Jr. as a real option on offense when he shot 33% (YES THRIRTY-THREE) overall and 26% from 3 in the playoffs. The Hawks were a 2-man show offensively in the playoffs. Yet somehow some people think that he will play WORSE in the regular season than last year...after a full additional summer working on his game again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurupt Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 vor 3 Stunden, thecampster sagte: So on this list I see 2 NBA champs. 1 of them had Lebron, the other had Thompson, Green and most recently Durant. Additionally, in this list Dennis most favorably relates to whom??? Who has Dennis' skillset? Again, I'm just being realistic here. Last season Dennis was 18/6/3 (rounded). To expect him at 24 to take a huge leap forward while not sacrificing efficiency is crazy. Let's use Conley as your example. Conley at 23. 13.7/6.5/3. His next 5 seasons. 12.7/6.5/2.5 14.6/6.1/2.1 17.2/6.0/2.9 15.8/5.4/3.0 15.3/6.1/2.9 20.5/6.3/3.5 Disturbingly consistent and took his "next step" scoring at 29 not 23. Steph Curry 23 = 18.6/5/8/3.9 24 14.7/5.3/3.4 He's 25-27 and averaged around 23.5 ppg but takes his big leap at 28 to 30.1 ppg then down to 25.3. @23.8 and 25.3 he wins the NBA championship but at 30.1 the team is flawed and loses. Kyrie did nothing without Lebron. Boston felt so flawed they added Horford and flamed out when their still existent flaws showed. What I think disturbs me most about your list is you're comparing 23 year old, very immature Dennis to pretty much every great passer in the NBA. The kid is 23....throwing the franchise on his back at this age is a bit premature. At no point have I said "Dennis is terrible, throw the bum out". What I have said is he is still maturing and I refuse to judge him as a complete package until he is at least 25. Your point is what? Dennis cannot be compared to these players because what? Because he was better at 23 years old than most of them?! Like, you argued against your own point, buddy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 No I didn't. I earlier stated in the thread that I would consider an improvement from Dennis if he just averaged 2 more assists per game and stated that if he was focusing on scoring it would be detrimental to overall team development and play. It was insinuated I was a negative Hawks fan and hated Dennis. The retardation is in the inability to see that when I clearly stated "What I think disturbs me most about your list is you're comparing a 23 year old, very immature Dennis to pretty much every great passer in the NBA. The kid is 23....throwing the franchise on his back at this age is a bit premature. At no point have I said "Dennis is terrible, throw the bum out". What I have said is he is still maturing and I refuse to judge him as a complete package until he is at least 25." Instead of giving him tools to succeed like the other listed players have, we took away everything he has and replaced it with rookies and role players. This is a tall task, even for Bud-U. Just be prepared. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazer Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 15 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said: What you say is true. The key for Dennis is if he can shoot a decent percentage from the field and from 3. It would also help if others can set Dennis up with decent shots. In this "new" NBA, it's almost better for the PG to be a high scorer that shoots a decent percentage, than a high assist man. Dennis has few proven scorers around him, so he'll have to be the one that scores the basketball. I say that the Hawks need to go ahead and start Bembry over Baze at the 2, although I think the plan may be to have Bembry be the backup PG. Starting Bembry would put an extra ball handler and playmaker on the floor with him, that could make it easier for Dennis to score the basketball. While I don't think the Hawks can win more than 35 games, I'm rooting for Dennis to take that next step up into the top 10 PG list. He's really our only hope of not going into the abyss. Holy $hit, did I write this post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted July 30, 2017 Premium Member Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 2 hours ago, kurupt said: The retardation in this thread is unreal. Unbearable to read posts here. Schröder was the best Hawks player in the playoffs, scoring 24.7 ppg with 7.7 assists while shooting 45.5% overall and 42.5% from 3 - and doing it against a red hot John Wall. AND... We lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted July 30, 2017 Report Share Posted July 30, 2017 Just wanted to point out that Dennis had the 5th highest AST% among players who posted a USG% of >/= 27. Dennis is going to be the most interesting to player to watch this year. I do agree that there will be more of a emphasis placed on him by the opposition's defense, but there will also be continued development in his game. He's gotten better as a three point shooter in every season, and he's already a very good mid range shooter, particularly off the dribble. He's very much below average at finishing at the rim though, and this is where his lack of efficiency comes from. With that said, Dennis finished the regular season with a eFG% at the rim of 0.564. That actually improved in the playoffs to 0.588, but that's not really a marked difference. Dennis may never have the physical strength to be a strong finisher at the rim and will have to make hay with his floaters. The key to his development this year is going to be his three point shot and turnovers.. In the playoffs, he shot 42% and around 36% of his shot attempts were three point shots. The other interesting thing about him is that despite becoming a starter for the first time and going from a little used reserve to what he was a year ago, his USG% has hovered around 27-28. I would have thought his USG% would have gone up with him being a starter. It's possible that Bud's system isn't going to really give him the opportunity to be a high USG guy similar to Westbrook. Tony Parker was always around a 28-29 USG guy in SA, but he was also much stronger at finishing at the rim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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