Hawksquawk.. Would you do this trade?

[Diesel]

 

Schröder/Belinelli to LAL for Lonzo Ball and Loul Deng.

 

The talk of the day has been Lavar Ball.   For all of his shinanigans, his son is a good player maybe a franchise player.   However, Lakernation may not be willing to put up with Lavar.  So here's the deal:

We give them a good Gaurd in Schröder and an ending contract and we take Lavar Ball's Son and Loul Deng's bad deal. 

The real question here:

For all the trouble that Lavar brings, do you think that we could fluorish with Lonzo running the show?

[AHF]

This is probably one of your more interesting questions. I would think long and hard about the pulling the trigger on this deal.  Ball has obvious and massive shooting liabilities and comes with an epic #$*ton of family baggage but he is talented, cost controlled and under team control for years to come.  Deng is wasted space and dead cap room for the next two seasons.  I would want Bud on board but I might very well do this deal if Bud / Jent thought his shot was fixable.

[nathan2331]

 

Schröder/Belinelli to LAL for Lonzo Ball and Loul Deng.

 

The talk of the day has been Lavar Ball.   For all of his shinanigans, his son is a good player maybe a franchise player.   However, Lakernation may not be willing to put up with Lavar.  So here's the deal:

We give them a good Gaurd in Schröder and an ending contract and we take Lavar Ball's Son and Loul Deng's bad deal. 

The real question here:

For all the trouble that Lavar brings, do you think that we could fluorish with Lonzo running the show?

If Lonzo Ball was actually good I'd entertain it, but he's shooting 33% from the field. He needs to change his jump shot, not only is it ugly as hell, but it's too easy to contest. He's got a size advantage, there's no reason he should struggle to score the way he has

I respect that Dennis has his limitations that make him unsatisfactory to some, but Lonzo is not the answer.

 

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[Lurker]

The player itself may be fine in the future with Lonzo, but I've long said that Lonzo is going to prove the point of being an outstanding passing point means jack in this league today.

[Diesel]

I don't think being a passing point, especially one that can score and defend is a bad thing in today's league.   I agree about his shot mechanics, but I disagree that that makes him not good.   I think that in time, he will be a stud... I'm talking Jason Kidd like.   I think you will find that PGs that can be leaders of men are more important than the next Kemba Walker. 

[nathan2331]

 

 

I don't think being a passing point, especially one that can score and defend is a bad thing in today's league.   I agree about his shot mechanics, but I disagree that that makes him not good.   I think that in time, he will be a stud... I'm talking Jason Kidd like.   I think you will find that PGs that can be leaders of men are more important than the next Kemba Walker. 

 

I don't know if he'll get there to Kidd levels. I think his dad had messed him up running his mouth. Just watching him here and there, I think players are focusing on him. 33% is just so horrendously low, I don't want to deal Dennis to try and fix it. I like the player, but some things have to change if I'm giving up Dennis to get him.

 

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[Lurker]

Like I've said before....

Lonzo Ball will never be Jason Kidd.

Has nothing to do with me hating the player. Has a lot more to do with his dad. I like the idea of him if he can fix his shot but he still will need a slashing guard that can playmake a little to play with him. He'd be in much better shape if the Lakers didn't give up on Russell. 

Someone said early in the game that he's completely lost in the half court if he's not running a PNR and until he can use screens outside of PNR effectively or play with a slasher at guard consistently, he's going to struggle.... Hmmm...sounds familiar (albeit with a younger guard but...still), just with a guy that passes more.

But like I've said, the pass first, second, and third points of today are more likely to be Ricky Rubio's or late career Rajon Rondo's than Jason Kidd and it's chasing a dream...that's long gone and not returning to look for pure passers unless they can do both (IE: Trae Young).

[Diesel]

27 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

I don't know if he'll get there to Kidd levels. I think his dad had messed him up running his mouth. Just watching him here and there, I think players are focusing on him. 33% is just so horrendously low, I don't want to deal Dennis to try and fix it. I like the player, but some things have to change if I'm giving up Dennis to get him.

 

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His dad does have a good point though.  You get better by having the best come at you and give you their best.   I think Pippen would not have been so good if he didn't have Jordan practicing with him every day.   You know Jordan was ultra competitive and I think that improved Scotties game.  I think having guys gunning for Lonzo will make him stronger if he's use to it.   I think he's use to it.   I think the youngest brother is the best of the three but Lonzo has some game that will evolve because he's being challenged. 

About Dennis.  I don't see Dennis as being the future of this team so I'm not passing on the opportunity for a great player by keeping him. 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Like I've said before....

Lonzo Ball will never be Jason Kidd.

Has nothing to do with me hating the player. Has a lot more to do with his dad. I like the idea of him if he can fix his shot but he still will need a slashing guard that can playmake a little to play with him. He'd be in much better shape if the Lakers didn't give up on Russell. 

Someone said early in the game that he's completely lost in the half court if he's not running a PNR and until he can use screens outside of PNR effectively or play with a slasher at guard consistently, he's going to struggle.... Hmmm...sounds familiar (albeit with a younger guard but...still), just with a guy that passes more.

But like I've said, the pass first, second, and third points of today are more likely to be Ricky Rubio's or late career Rajon Rondo's than Jason Kidd and it's chasing a dream...that's long gone and not returning to look for pure passers unless they can do both (IE: Trae Young).

Let's be honest.. Jason kidd was no Korver either.   Jason Kidd (ROY) first year stats were that he shot 38.5% from the field and 27% from three.   Nobody cried about Kidd's future.  Lonzo is averaging about as many apg as kidd did 7.0 to 7.7. and more rebounds and far more blocks.   Given time, I think this kid will pan out a lot closer to Kidd than you think .

Secondly.  I think you have misjudged the league.  All these OGs are going nowhere.   Walker, Lillard, Westbrook, Thomas, etc.. are headed nowhere quickly.   Don't discount real PGs like Conley Jr, Wall, Lowry, etc.  I don't think Ball will have any problem scoring because he's more than a PNR PG.  IF anything, he's going to be a mix of Kidd and Conley Jr. . but his size... sets him apart. 

 

[Lurker]

LaVar most likely has wrecked his two youngest son's lives. With what happens in Euro ball, it's more likely that LaMelo doesn't get any time than gets time and shows what he can do.

[nathan2331]

 

 

His dad does have a good point though.  You get better by having the best come at you and give you their best.   I think Pippen would not have been so good if he didn't have Jordan practicing with him every day.   You know Jordan was ultra competitive and I think that improved Scotties game.  I think having guys gunning for Lonzo will make him stronger if he's use to it.   I think he's use to it.   I think the youngest brother is the best of the three but Lonzo has some game that will evolve because he's being challenged. 

About Dennis.  I don't see Dennis as being the future of this team so I'm not passing on the opportunity for a great player by keeping him. 

 

I suppose that's a valid point, but getting to the NBA is so difficult, I wouldn't add more hurdles just because it might make you a stronger player. And there's still too much to improve there. We've got an All-star caliber guard, how good do you think Lonzo will be to give that up?

 

Dennis would look like Tony Parker on a good team. Tony was never a floor general, but he could get to the rim and finish as well as anyone. He's not the finished product yet, but he's a piece that can help win us games in the future.

 

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[Lurker]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Let's be honest.. Jason kidd was no Korver either.   Jason Kidd (ROY) first year stats were that he shot 38.5% from the field and 27% from three.   Nobody cried about Kidd's future.  Lonzo is averaging about as many apg as kidd did 7.0 to 7.7. and more rebounds and far more blocks.   Given time, I think this kid will pan out a lot closer to Kidd than you think .

Secondly.  I think you have misjudged the league.  All these OGs are going nowhere.   Walker, Lillard, Westbrook, Thomas, etc.. are headed nowhere quickly.   Don't discount real PGs like Conley Jr, Wall, Lowry, etc.  I don't think Ball will have any problem scoring because he's more than a PNR PG.  IF anything, he's going to be a mix of Kidd and Conley Jr. . but his size... sets him apart. 

 

He's not more than a PNR PG today. This showed me that you didn't read my post. Like I said, I've read stuff everywhere that says that Lonzo will not grow until he learns how to use screens outside of PNR...and it'd really help if he played with a slasher guard.

And what's Memphis accomplished? How about Washington? Toronto? Lonzo is most likely to be a role playing pass first guard than a superstar passer than raises the team's level to title caliber.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Lurker

[Lurker]

That's my point... the Jason Kidd's that raised you to championship level due to superstar caliber passing are likely long gone and not returning.

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, Lurker said:

He's not more than a PNR PG today. This showed me that you didn't read my post. Like I said, I've read stuff everywhere that says that Lonzo will not grow until he learns how to use screens outside of PNR...and it'd really help if he played with a slasher guard.

And what's Memphis accomplished? How about Washington? Toronto? Lonzo is most likely to be a role playing pass first guard than a superstar passer than raises the team's level to title caliber.

I've also read.  It said that as a rook, Lonzo has shown a lot of leadership.   The nuances will come.   There are SGs that can run PNR and use outside screens.   However, leadership and making others better is something that the game still needs. 

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

I suppose that's a valid point, but getting to the NBA is so difficult, I wouldn't add more hurdles just because it might make you a stronger player. And there's still too much to improve there. We've got an All-star caliber guard, how good do you think Lonzo will be to give that up?

 

Dennis would look like Tony Parker on a good team. Tony was never a floor general, but he could get to the rim and finish as well as anyone. He's not the finished product yet, but he's a piece that can help win us games in the future.

 

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Dennis would not look like Tony Parker on a good team.  His star still has to be brightest.   That's been the problem with him.  Dennis is a good PNR player but in an offense without PNR, he moves players to get his shots.  He played on a good team and he did not look like Tony Parker. 

[nathan2331]

 

 

Dennis would not look like Tony Parker on a good team.  His star still has to be brightest.   That's been the problem with him.  Dennis is a good PNR player but in an offense without PNR, he moves players to get his shots.  He played on a good team and he did not look like Tony Parker. 

 

Dennis looks bad off the ball because he can't hit 3s consistently and teams know he can't hit 3s consistently. I don't think he's necessarily selfish, I just don't think he offers much else if he doesn't hold the ball. His actual PG skills are adequate, he's no Stockton and he doesn't have the vision guys like Lonzo do, but he is capable of getting 7 or 8 assists which is adequate in our offense when ball movement can get the rest.

 

His defense as you an others have said also needs to improve, but PG defense matters less and less the more screens and switches we see in the league. Rondo looked good when he had KG behind him, Dennis would look better if we had a big capable of cleaning up for him. Teague was never a great defender but no one really criticised him for it. This season don't mind the lack of effort, but I suppose that's the consequence of tanking.

 

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[Diesel]

14 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

Dennis looks bad off the ball because he can't hit 3s consistently and teams know he can't hit 3s consistently. I don't think he's necessarily selfish, I just don't think he offers much else if he doesn't hold the ball. His actual PG skills are adequate, he's no Stockton and he doesn't have the vision guys like Lonzo do, but he is capable of getting 7 or 8 assists which is adequate in our offense when ball movement can get the rest.

 

His defense as you an others have said also needs to improve, but PG defense matters less and less the more screens and switches we see in the league. Rondo looked good when he had KG behind him, Dennis would look better if we had a big capable of cleaning up for him. Teague was never a great defender but no one really criticised him for it. This season don't mind the lack of effort, but I suppose that's the consequence of tanking.

 

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He's not capable of putting up 7 to 8 assists consistently.   He's just not that kind of player.   Also, his defensive flaws were hidden.  He played alongside of Al and Sap and those guys hid a mutlitude of his defensive shortcomings.   People praised him for being "active" on defense when in all truth, he couldn't stay in front of his man.  He played some Kevin Johnson/Mark Price Olay defense.   Now, there's nobody behind him to make him look better so he looks bad.   Teague took advantage of that too, the difference is that Teague was a better shooter and he could get players into the offense better.  Dennis doesn't care about the offense.   He's an Iso player, he just dribbles and moves until he can get a shot.  That doesn't work in this NBA.  Why do you think OKC is failing.   Too much Iso. 

[nathan2331]

He's not capable of putting up 7 to 8 assists consistently.   He's just not that kind of player.   Also, his defensive flaws were hidden.  He played alongside of Al and Sap and those guys hid a mutlitude of his defensive shortcomings.   People praised him for being "active" on defense when in all truth, he couldn't stay in front of his man.  He played some Kevin Johnson/Mark Price Olay defense.   Now, there's nobody behind him to make him look better so he looks bad.   Teague took advantage of that too, the difference is that Teague was a better shooter and he could get players into the offense better.  Dennis doesn't care about the offense.   He's an Iso player, he just dribbles and moves until he can get a shot.  That doesn't work in this NBA.  Why do you think OKC is failing.   Too much Iso. 

Come on man, now you're just hating. Dennis is averaging 6.5 assists right now on a lottery team and you're trying to say he can never get to 7 or 8. He's not a bad playmaker. He is a bad off ball player, but its because he can't shoot threes. Neither can Lonzo though. Dennis looking for his shot constantly doesn't make him selfish considering he's the best offensive player on the team. He isn't some volume chucker you paint him out to be. OKC has 3 guys who play like that. We're not a good team, Lonzo won't change that. Maybe he'll be better in the future, I'm not sure. But I do know Dennis is a quality PG today.

 

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[Lurker]

Lonzo may be a good leader, but that isn't making him better than Jordan Clarkson, Combo Guard. He's consistently getting outplayed by him on the second unit.

Seriously, I'd take him as my point guard, but you've drowned in complete delusion if you think what he can do in college is repeatable.

[Diesel]

25 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Lonzo may be a good leader, but that isn't making him better than Jordan Clarkson, Combo Guard. He's consistently getting outplayed by him on the second unit.

Seriously, I'd take him as my point guard, but you've drowned in complete delusion if you think what he can do in college is repeatable.

If it came down to trading one of them, Father aside... Who do you think that the Lakers would get rid of?