The Tank Thread

[KB21]

18 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

No it doesn’t. Going all in on  Davis, embid type players is vastly different from going all in on , milsap horford, korver and anybody else from that team.  Hate to break it to you but ferry was gonna tear that team apart he just didn’t get to finish what he started. Plus that 60 win team did play in a noticeable weaker east that year. 

Ferry is smarter than Schlenk, so if he had torn it apart, he would have at least fielded a competitive team while he rebuild it within a year's time like he did when he traded Joe.  

What has going all in on Davis and Embiid done for those franchises?  Sure, they have good players with those two, but where are the wins?

[davis171]

11 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Ferry is smarter than Schlenk, so if he had torn it apart, he would have at least fielded a competitive team while he rebuild it within a year's time like he did when he traded Joe.  

What has going all in on Davis and Embiid done for those franchises?  Sure, they have good players with those two, but where are the wins?

The Pelicans are a top 4 seed in the west. Ferry I don't think expected the hawks to be as good as they were (for that one month but thats not important). I think Ferry adopted a much more favorable situation than Schlenk did more cap flexibility to sign Sap DMC and trade for Korver the hawks that Schlenk inherited had no Horford, Teague, Joe Johnson. I'm betting he has a plan and he just had no flexibility or assets to execute.

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

10 minutes ago, davis171 said:

The Pelicans are a top 4 seed in the west. Ferry I don't think expected the hawks to be as good as they were (for that one month but thats not important). I think Ferry adopted a much more favorable situation than Schlenk did more cap flexibility to sign Sap DMC and trade for Korver the hawks that Schlenk inherited had no Horford, Teague, Joe Johnson. I'm betting he has a plan and he just had no flexibility or assets to execute.

People who adopt the tanking strategy truly have no plan when it comes to roster building.

[davis171]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

People who adopt the tanking strategy truly have no plan when it comes to roster building.

Um Bud definitely put us in this situation by not bringing in any positive assets outside of Prince and a first from the best team in the east. We are in cap hell what do you do about that... 

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[Lurker]

I'd be down with a team approach style with veterans looking to prove themselves year in and year out but 60 wins is on the outlier side, it'd be more like 50-52 with that with the catch that even if you have most of the traits that are required to beat LeBron, you still need that uber star to have any shot at all at getting past him.

The sneaky warning with this though is you have to be careful with structuring the contracts to where they go under bird rights, and this is where Danny Ferry failed. If he doesn't mess up there, perhaps you still have DMC on the team and win a few more games than what happened in 15/16...and you don't have the rollover effect of what happened from there.

It's an Oakland A's like style, which is fine, just not in a league where being a very hard working team that plays very unselfishly is going to reward you. No the Spurs don't count, as they've had uber stars. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

DMC wasn't even remotely more important than Al/Paul. It wasn't even close. Al/Paul's passing and defense were vital.

WS/48 by player, in that 2014 - 15 season ( main rotation guys only )

 

Horford:  .179

Millsap:  .166

Teague:  .166

Carroll:  .154

Korver:  .148

Sefolosha:  .121

Scott:  .115

Schröder:  .080

Antic:  .070

Bazemore:  .057

 

 

[Royjr9]

23 minutes ago, KB21 said:

People who adopt the tanking strategy truly have no plan when it comes to roster building.

What?  Clearly teams tank and have visions and thus build their team. You may not like how you got there but if from this draft Schlenk drafts or acquires guys because of this draft that propel this franchise forward are you really still gone to cry wolf because they tanked. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Rank by position ( according to NBA efficiency )  http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/home

 

Normally, when you see these efficiency position rankings, this is what is normally means:

 

1st:   Superstar

2nd - 5th:  All Star / Top 20 league player

6th - 10th:  Very Good Starter

11th - 15th:  Good Starter

16th - 30th:  Starter/6th man

31st - 40th:  Good bench player

41st - 60th:  Rotation bench player/Specialist

60th+:  Scrub

 

 

 

2014 - 2015 Hawks

 

Teague - 11th

Korver - 15th

Carroll - 10th

Millsap - 5th

Horford - 9th

 

Schröder - 43rd

Bazemore - 56th

Sefolosha - 42nd

Scott - 53rd

Antic - 76th

 

Starters rank:  4th

Bench rank:  16th

 

[davis171]

23 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

WS/48 by player, in that 2014 - 15 season ( main rotation guys only )

 

Horford:  .179 $12,000,000

Millsap:  .166 $9,500,000

Teague:  .166 $8,000,000

Carroll:  .154 $2,442,455

Korver:  .148 $6,253,531

Sefolosha:  .121 $4,150,000

Scott:  .115 $3,333,333

Schröder:  .080 $1,690,680

Antic:  .070 $1,250,000

Bazemore:  .057 $2,000,000

 

 

In order to return to this style we need to maintain our assets better and realize the contract situation better. Carroll wasn't worth paying all that money. We have to have a GM who has a better eye for talent and team building than Bud which is why Schlenk was brought in. Ik you guys don't like the moves year 1 give him time once we have a sample size I'll take my side on him. I liked the pick in Collins, we probably could have brought in more interesting vets than Ilyasova and etc however I like Dedmon especially if we draft a center to come back and teach him and if the rookie shows he is ready flip Dedmon at the deadline. Those are the types of moves I'm looking for Schlenk to make and he hasn't been put in a position to do so yet imo. Keep signing intriguing under the radar vets as expensive contracts begin to expire to pair with your new young core and see where we go from there. As you can see thats what Ferry did. He didn't sign anyone to massive ballon deals. He signed guys that fell through the cracks in free agency to keep the team up using the flexibility he walked into to try and flip them for more valuable assets when they out preform their contracts because no big free agent is going to come here in FA. 

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Just for kicks and giggles, here are the current Hawks by position, using the same NBA efficiency stat

 

Schröder:  12th

Bazemore:  17th

Prince:  24th

Dedmon:  22nd

Plumlee:  31st

 

Delaney:  62nd

Taylor:  75th

Collins:  20th

Muscala:  51st

 

Ilyasova: 34th

Belinelli:  41st

[Royjr9]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Just for kicks and giggles, here are the current Hawks by position, using the same NBA efficiency stat

 

Schröder:  12th

Bazemore:  17th

Prince:  24th

Dedmon:  22nd

Plumlee:  31st

 

Delaney:  62nd

Taylor:  75th

Collins:  20th

Muscala:  51st

 

Ilyasova: 34th

Belinelli:  41st

You forgot bembry lol

[TheNorthCydeRises]

19 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

You forgot bembry lol

Nah, not really.

As much as I wanted to see that dude crack the rotation and get meaningful minutes, I've pretty much given up on him.  Hopefully, he'll surprise us all, and come back with a jumpshot next season.

[KB21]

59 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

What?  Clearly teams tank and have visions and thus build their team. You may not like how you got there but if from this draft Schlenk drafts or acquires guys because of this draft that propel this franchise forward are you really still gone to cry wolf because they tanked. 

Yeah.  That's why Philly drafted Nerlens Noel, then took Joel Embiid, and then took Jahlil Okafor.  There was no plan.  Sam Hinkie was randomly throwing darts at a target hoping that he would hit.  He did not take into account team fit or anything.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Carroll was definitely worth paying the money for.  3 and D wings are coveted in this league.  In the Hawks system, he'd be playing much better than he is right now. 

The issue was that we couldn't pay to keep him here.  Ferry failed to give him a long enough contract to secure his Bird Rights, so that we could go over the cap to sign him.

Ferry, in his quest for flexibility, actually messed this team up.  That's why the team disintegrated so quickly.

[KB21]

1 hour ago, Royjr9 said:

What?  Clearly teams tank and have visions and thus build their team. You may not like how you got there but if from this draft Schlenk drafts or acquires guys because of this draft that propel this franchise forward are you really still gone to cry wolf because they tanked. 

Yes, I will still consider tanking a completely deplorable strategy and an abomination upon the league.  I will still support measures to take away draft picks from teams who employ this strategy.  I am completely against tanking no matter what the outcome on the other side is, which I already know is not what you pro tankers want it to be.  I've already detailed what this tank job is going to look like.

[davis171]

24 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yes, I will still consider tanking a completely deplorable strategy and an abomination upon the league.  I will still support measures to take away draft picks from teams who employ this strategy.  I am completely against tanking no matter what the outcome on the other side is, which I already know is not what you pro tankers want it to be.  I've already detailed what this tank job is going to look like.

If the hawks are just going to tank without trying to hit on free agents that fall through cracks like Ferry did I'll 100% agree but I didn't see much that Schlenk could do last off season due to 0 cap space and I actually like Dedmon if we can get him back midlevel or less. We have a nice amount of cap opening after the season lets see what he does with it before we judge his plan. I'm cool with signing vets but only if they sign contracts that make since ala Sap for less than $10,000,000 (I know the cap was lower a little over 60 million but still less than a sixth of your cap space not 30 million which is almost a third now.) That is how that team was built free agents that no body wanted to pay so they came to ATL with a chip on their shoulder to get paid we just can't be the team paying them unless they blow up like Milsap (the 20 million contract was fine he was still a trade asset). I actually think the Celtics caught on to what the hawks were doing by acquiring lucrative players on nice contracts and getting rid of them as bad contracts approached  (Thomas, Crowder, Bradley, Morris, etc).

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, davis171 said:

If the hawks are just going to tank without trying to hit on free agents that fall through cracks like Ferry did I'll 100% agree but I didn't see much that Schlenk could do last off season due to 0 cap space and I actually like Dedmon if we can get him back midlevel or less. We have a nice amount of cap opening after the season lets see what he does with it before we judge his plan. I'm cool with signing vets but only if they sign contracts that make since ala Sap for less than $10,000,000 (I know the cap was lower a little over 60 million but still less than a sixth of your cap space not 30 million which is almost a third now.) That is how that team was built free agents that no body wanted to pay so they came to ATL with a chip on their shoulder to get paid we just can't be the team paying them unless they blow up like Milsap (the 20 million contract was fine he was still a trade asset). I actually think the Celtics caught on to what the hawks were doing by acquiring lucrative players on nice contracts and getting rid of them as bad contracts approached  (Thomas, Crowder, Bradley, Morris, etc).

The decision HE made to tank this season out is enough to completely remove any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned.  He will be fired before Atlanta is good again, IMO.

[davis171]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The decision HE made to tank this season out is enough to completely remove any benefit of the doubt as far as I'm concerned.  He will be fired before Atlanta is good again, IMO.

So which moves could he have made last year with 0 cap space? Resign Paul and give up all opportunities to sign free agents this off season. What if the next Sap except closer to 27 is out there in FA this year. I accepted that was the only way to be relevant this year. he didn't make the move to move Korver last year who would have been a contributor this year for a future 1st that was Bud so clearly Bud accepted it was the end of that core.

Edited March 7, 2018 by davis171

[DBac]

Mavs beat the Nuggets. Nuggets really been struggling since Paul got back (Jokic not used to playing with him).

 

So we're pretty much right back in it.

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, davis171 said:

So which moves could he have made last year with 0 cap space? Resign Paul and give up all opportunities to sign free agents this off season. What if the next Sap except closer to 27 is out there in FA this year. I accepted that was the only way to be relevant this year. he didn't make the move to move Korver last year who would have been a contributor this year for a future 1st that was Bud so clearly Bud accepted it was the end of that core.

If he had simply resigned Paul and done nothing else, that would have at least signaled that he was at least trying to win some games and not making moves to intentionally lose games.  If he resigns Paul and the Hawks lose because Paul gets hurt and misses games, I can accept that.  That is something that happens organically.  It is not a forced move.  It is not tanking, which I absolutely deplore.  Tanking cheats the fans who pay their hard earned money to watch this team play out of a good experience at the game.  

What Travis Schlenk did this off season was let the team's best player walk without even making a counter offer to him or even offering to match what is a 2 year deal, and he went about the off season making moves with the intent to lose and improve draft position.  Even if the Hawks land Luka Doncic, who I love, and Doncic becomes the European LeBron James in the the NBA, what the Hawks are doing to get him is unacceptable to me.  

Sports should be about doing everything you can to compete and win games.  The idea of intentionally losing games should never cross anyone's mind, and this is why I am for the NBA employing the most strict policy it can when it comes to tanking.  Take away the draft pick of the team who has tanked.  In my opinion, the Hawks should lose their draft pick in this year's draft.