The Tank Thread

[KB21]

Just now, CBAreject said:

No one has proven you wrong by your own standards which are self-servingly designed by you to be impossible to prove wrong.  Your arguments have been mostly strawman building and goalpost moving.  

Well of course someone who supports the atrocities of tanking would say that my arguments are strawman building and goalpost moving, when the fact is, 5 years is the amount of time where you have this first draft pick in a cost controlled situation before you have to overpay to keep him.  So, if the strategy works, it should work within that cost controlled period of time.

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, KB21 said:

And no one has proven me wrong yet.  Go figure.

I agree with diesel.  Those of you who support this atrocious strategy that only guarantees losing, put your balls in your hands and tell me that this path will guarantee that the Hawks are at a championship level within 4 years and the rebuild will be over after two.

Because I have no issues with with stating emphatically that the Hawks will not win for at least 5 years.

Put your own [EDIT: Guts! ~lw3] on the line and finish giving us your path to a guaranteed championship for the Hawks by keeping Howard and resigning Sap.  I've taken the time to put together the entire salary picture for the Hawks over the next several years and you haven't even completed a playoff worth roster for next season let alone showed a path to a ring.

My view is that life holds no guarantees and anyone who claims different is selling you something.

[CBAreject]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Well of course someone who supports the atrocities of tanking would say that my arguments are strawman building and goalpost moving, when the fact is, 5 years is the amount of time where you have this first draft pick in a cost controlled situation before you have to overpay to keep him.  So, if the strategy works, it should work within that cost controlled period of time.

We’ve been through this.  You equivocate (a third logical fallacy) by using different definitions of “worked” to critique tanking vs continuing with our bloated corpse of a roster we had in 2017.  Hey if I get to judge things on different scales l can prove anything I want.  

[davis171]

I want to get back to KB on him taking Charlotte > 76ers nothing he says is valid until he explains lol.

Edited March 30, 2018 by davis171

[KB21]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

Put your own [EDIT: Guts! ~lw3] on the line and finish giving us your path to a guaranteed championship for the Hawks by keeping Howard and resigning Sap.  I've taken the time to put together the entire salary picture for the Hawks over the next several years and you haven't even completed a playoff worth roster for next season let alone showed a path to a ring.

My view is that life holds no guarantees and anyone who claims different is selling you something.

No, because it is completely irrelevant now due to this incompetent piece of [EDIT: Shinola! ~lw3] we have for a GM.  My pathway is as it always has been.  You are better off maintaining your competitiveness and putting a good product on the court than you are by bottoming out.  Houston is the best example of this..  

But those of you who support compromising the integrity of the game and the spirit of competition who want to attempt to say that someone tanked when they didn't actually tank, continue on.

[davis171]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No, because it is completely irrelevant now due to this incompetent piece of [EDIT: Shinola! ~lw3] we have for a GM.  My pathway is as it always has been.  You are better off maintaining your competitiveness and putting a good product on the court than you are by bottoming out.  Houston is the best example of this..  

But those of you who support compromising the integrity of the game and the spirit of competition who want to attempt to say that someone tanked when they didn't actually tank, continue on.

Boston won 25 games and traded 3 of their 4 best players what is that? The Rockets had a lottery pick that OKC overvalued (Jeremy Lamb) that is how they ended up with Harden.

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, davis171 said:

Boston won 25 games and traded 3 of their 4 best players what is that? The Rockets had a lottery pick that OKC overvalued (Jeremy Lamb) that is how they ended up with Harden.

Boston did not completely blitz their roster to bare nothing like Schlenk has done in Atlanta.  Boston did not field an expansion level team.   Boston also went out and brought in veteran players in the first off season they had. 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No, because it is completely irrelevant now due to this incompetent piece of [EDIT: Shinola! ~lw3] we have for a GM.  My pathway is as it always has been.  You are better off maintaining your competitiveness and putting a good product on the court than you are by bottoming out.  Houston is the best example of this..  

But those of you who support compromising the integrity of the game and the spirit of competition who want to attempt to say that someone tanked when they didn't actually tank, continue on.

Show me your guaranteed champion in the next 4 years.  (I love that the Bulls champships, Heat champions, GS championships, Boston championships, Cleveland championship, Dallas championship, etc. built around losing seasons leading to lottery picks doesn't count but a Houston team that has never made the finals does).

 

Roster Spots	KB Roster	2017-18 Salary	2018-19 Salary	2019-2020	2020-2021
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000	$23,819,725	--	--
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231	$29,730,000	$30,500,000	--
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113	$18,089,887	$19,269,662	--
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	--
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920	$2,299,080	$2,686,560	$4,137,302
6	Juwon Evans	$815,615	$1,378,242	RFA	--
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000	--	--	--
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560	$2,526,840	$3,481,986	RFA
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200	$1,634,640	$2,603,982	RFA
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	--
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000	$5,250,000	--	--
13
14
15
	Salary Total:	$112,671,639	$111,228,414	$85,042,190	$19,637,302
	NBA Salary Cap:	$99,100,000	$101,000,000	$108,000,000

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Show me your guaranteed champion in the next 4 years.  (I love that the Bulls champships, Heat champions, GS championships, Boston championships, Cleveland championship, Dallas championship, etc. built around losing seasons leading to lottery picks doesn't count but a Houston team that has never made the finals does).

 

Roster Spots	KB Roster	2017-18 Salary	2018-19 Salary	2019-2020	2020-2021
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000	$23,819,725	--	--
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231	$29,730,000	$30,500,000	--
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113	$18,089,887	$19,269,662	--
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	--
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920	$2,299,080	$2,686,560	$4,137,302
6	Juwon Evans	$815,615	$1,378,242	RFA	--
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000	--	--	--
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560	$2,526,840	$3,481,986	RFA
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200	$1,634,640	$2,603,982	RFA
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	--
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000	$5,250,000	--	--
13
14
15
	Salary Total:	$112,671,639	$111,228,414	$85,042,190	$19,637,302
	NBA Salary Cap:	$99,100,000	$101,000,000	$108,000,000

Which one of those teams did it withing 5 years?  You tell me that first.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Which one of those teams did it withing 5 years?  You tell me that first.

I don't give a #$*& about winning in 5 years because I think that is completely unrealistic.  Jordan didn't win in 5 years and won 6 rings for Chicago.  Jordan's Bulls are not a failure - they are a huge success story.  You are the one trotting out that standard that any team building the right way should be guaranteed in a ring in 5 years.  You show me how it is done.  Take me from last years roster as your year 1 to a ring.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I don't give a #$*& about winning in 5 years because I think that is completely unrealistic.  Jordan didn't win in 5 years and won 6 rings for Chicago.  You are the one trotting out that standard that any team building the right way should be guaranteed in a ring in 5 years.  You show me how it is done.

Of course it is unrealistic.  It would be an admission that the strategy you so love doesn't work.

[CBAreject]

Just now, KB21 said:

Of course it is unrealistic.  It would be an admission that the strategy you so love doesn't work.

Lol.  And there is the strawman.  

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Of course it is unrealistic.  It would be an admission that the strategy you so love doesn't work.

Daryl Morey finished his first decade with your beloved strategy without winning jack squat and his team is the best example of trying to win without building through the lottery.  Even there his best player was acquired through trading 2 lottery picks.  There is one team that has won without building through the lottery and that is your 1 time champion Pistons.  Every other team built through the lottery for the past 40 years.

[DBac]

I mean if Houston counts then lets count OKC. From 20 wins and getting KD to the NBA finals 5 years later .

 

I'd love to trade for a young star level talent but you gotta have pieces. The league does not think highly of Dennis, old man Millsap on a 30M contract is not an asset, Bazemore is slowly recovering his value but again he's not much, Dwight was a toxic asset. None of these guys were Schlenk's doing.

Edited March 30, 2018 by DBac

[AHF]

Roster Spots	KB Roster	2017-18 Salary	2018-19 Salary	2019-2020	2020-2021
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000	$23,819,725	--	--
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231	$29,730,000	$30,500,000	--
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113	$18,089,887	$19,269,662	--
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	$6,000,000	--
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920	$2,299,080	$2,686,560	$4,137,302
6	Juwon Evans	$815,615	$1,378,242	RFA	--
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000	--	--	--
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560	$2,526,840	$3,481,986	RFA
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200	$1,634,640	$2,603,982	RFA
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	$5,000,000	--
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000	$5,250,000	--	--
13
14
15
	Salary Total:	$112,671,639	$111,228,414	$85,042,190	$19,637,302
	NBA Salary Cap:	$99,100,000	$101,000,000	$108,000,000

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Daryl Morey finished his first decade with your beloved strategy without winning jack squat and his team is the best example of trying to win without building through the lottery (even though his best player was acquired through trading 2 lottery picks).  

Daryl Morey built a championship caliber team within a 5 year period with his strategy.  He turned over the team in 2012-13 and was playing for the West Conference Finals in 2014-15.  

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, DBac said:

I mean if Houston counts then lets count OKC. From 20 wins and getting KD to the NBA finals 5 years later 

You have mentioned the ONE time it has actually worked, and it took the team doing it to draft a generational player with their first pick and then follow that up with MVP caliber talents in the next two drafts.  There is a reason that model has not been repeatable.  Orlando thought that's what they were getting when they hired Rob Hennigan away from OKC, much like Hawks fans think that GS's success in the draft will follow Schlenk to Atlanta.  See how well things worked out for Hennigan?

[Lurker]

It's sad at this point. You don't even consider keeping everyone on last year's roster, and I am not sure it's a team that makes the playoffs. 

Let's say you do go with a roster than doesn't have THJ but has a guy like Gerald Green instead and I'm unconvinced that's a playoff caliber team. More likely, it's a team that continues to go the Dallas Mavericks route of slowly, painfully declining into being bad which apparently is better than "suddenly being bad". 

Paul Millsap has shown that his magic is not as good when he plays with an inside big man or another guy that does both outside and inside. 

It's not accepting losing, really isn't. I'd be much softer if we'd accept that this is not just about last summer's actions and about multiple mistakes. Understand this, Bud is not a miracle worker, if the Hawks make minimal moves outside of letting THJ walk and signing filler guys like a Gerald Green (which idk if the Hawks even want that because of culture), I'm quite doubtful that 17/18 is a playoff team. 

There is never one extreme side that is correct in any argument. 

[DBac]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

You have mentioned the ONE time it has actually worked, and it took the team doing it to draft a generational player with their first pick and then follow that up with MVP caliber talents in the next two drafts.  There is a reason that model has not been repeatable.  Orlando thought that's what they were getting when they hired Rob Hennigan away from OKC, much like Hawks fans think that GS's success in the draft will follow Schlenk to Atlanta.  See how well things worked out for Hennigan?

Orlando drafted Dwight and went to the finals 6 years later. Darn it

[lethalweapon3]

Sorry for the Comment Lysoling, but we don't need to derail into sex-organ invective and juvenilizing each other. We can go many more drain-circling pages without all that!

Carry on! Not sure if there are page limits on threads, but if there is one, we will find out!

~lw3