The Tank Thread

[CBAreject]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Let's talk about the absolutely right in your convictions.  IF tanking never takes us anywhere... not even back to the playoffs... what about it made it absolutely right to you?  

Doing something different just to do something different?

Stephen Covey has a very good habit.  "Begin with the end in mind".   I challenged you who think that tanking is absolutely right to share with me your "endgame" and so far, I get.. strawman and vague comments and even attacks... it's interesting.  

"If your ladder is not leaning against the right wall, every step you take gets you to the wrong place faster."

That’s a great question.  If you moved all in with pocket aces before the flop and lost, was it the right move?  If you say no, you’re a results person.  If you say yes, you’re a process person.  I’m process person.  The correct process (read, decision) does not guarantee success.  

[KB21]

Any GM with half a brain would have at least attempted to field a competitive team.  

[CBAreject]

39 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then you will enjoy being the team that all the other teams wipe their feet on at the door with no hope of getting better for the foreseeable future.  

Yeah, but that team gets to draft a potential star for their efforts, while the pimple on the butt gets to draft a role player to maybe offset the decline of their expensive, core to maybe, just maybe, win 42 games again and play fluffer to Lebron.  

[KB21]

1 minute ago, CBAreject said:

Yeah, but that team gets to draft a potential star for their efforts, while the pimple on the butt gets to draft a role player to maybe offset the decline of their expensive, core to maybe, just maybe, win 42 games again and play fluffer to Lebron.  

Being in the playoffs > being in the lottery.  

Also, the team in the lottery is far more likely to end up wasting their pick on an Andrew Wiggins or Jabari Parker than they are at actually getting a star.  

Edited March 31, 2018 by KB21

[CBAreject]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Being in the playoffs > being in the lottery.  

Being in the lottery > being 8th seed with a depressing, declining, dead end, capped out roster. 

I can assert my opinion as fact just as easily 

[KB21]

Just now, CBAreject said:

Being in the lottery > being 8th seed with a depressing, declining, dead end, capped out roster. 

I can assert my opinion as fact just as easily 

Except your opinion isn’t fact.  You just have a loser’s mentality.  

[Buzzard]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Any GM with half a brain would have at least attempted to field a competitive team.  

I guess he should have paid the 85 million out to keep us out of the lottery another five years so we can say being in the playoffs is trying to win a championship. All that while the Bron's, Durant's, Curry's, Wade's, KAT's. AD's, Irving's etc..... laugh at us for even whispering the word championship.

In the NFL you can rebuild your team through the draft without tearing it down. This is not the NFL.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I guess he should have paid the 85 million out to keep us out of the lottery another five years so we can say being in the playoffs is trying to win a championship. All that while the Bron's, Durant's, Curry's, Wade's, KAT's. AD's, Irving's etc..... laugh at us for even whispering the word championship.

In the NFL you can rebuild your team through the draft without tearing it down. This is not the NFL.

Yes.  He should have kept the team together and built for the future from a winning position.  

It ia a myth that you can’t build in the NBA without tanking, as Morey and Ferry proved.  

[CBAreject]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Except your opinion isn’t fact.  You just have a loser’s mentality.  

KB.  I know you’re a smart guy.  We both went to med school the same year.  Remember?  You can’t possibly think I was saying my opinion is fact, can you?  Clearly I was showing that asserting something subjective as fact doesn’t advance the conversation. 

[marco102]

49 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then you will enjoy being the team that all the other teams wipe their feet on at the door with no hope of getting better for the foreseeable future.  

See this is where I have a problem with you.  You act like you can tell the motherfreaking future. You can't.  You don't know what's going to happen in the next second more or less the future.  Stop talking in absolutes and say it's your freaking opinion because that's all any of this crap is, freaking opinions.  The only fact is we tanked our season away and we are in the freaking lottery.  Deal with it!  

You can't argue with that fact,so stop. I don't care about what may happen in the next five years to the Hawks, cause guess what, we all may not be here in five years. 

 

[deester11]

52 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Then you will enjoy being the team that all the other teams wipe their feet on at the door with no hope of getting better for the foreseeable future.  

You're laughable at this point.  The team is what it is.  I at least hold out hope they get the right players.  I'm going to watch and enjoy when it's back to winning but that's not the story now.  It will be.

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

See this is where I have a problem with you.  You act like you can tell the motherfreaking future. You can't.  You don't know what's going to happen in the next second more or less the future.  Stop talking in absolutes and say it's your freaking opinion because that's all any of this crap is, freaking opinions.  The only fact is we tanked our season away and we are in the freaking lottery.  Deal with it!  

You can't argue with that fact,so stop. I don't care about what may happen in the next five years to the Hawks, cause guess what, we all may not be here in five years. 

 

Then here is the difference between me and you.  I don’t look at this situation and say, well, it will work this time.  I look at the history of teams that have started at this point, and that history isn’t pretty.  

History tells us that this will be a long process that will not end with the championship you desire.  

[Buzzard]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yes.  He should have kept the team together and built for the future from a winning position.  

It ia a myth that you can’t build in the NBA without tanking, as Morey and Ferry proved.  

And it is not a myth that you can build through the lottery. I think the list of modern NBA champions will prove that as well. Ferry came from the Spurs who are the lottery darlings with Duncan and the Admiral. He also inherited our all star lottery pick and best player in Al Horford.

I like Ferry but don't think for one minute he did not appreciate the Horford lottery selection. Ferry is a real bad example to say the least.

[Wretch]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I appreciate your take.   I say the ECF because we know that we have a coach who can get us there because he's gotten us there before.   In fact, with nothing, he almost beat a very powerful Indiana team his first year out.   So of your three headed monster of timing coaching, and chemistry, I think coaching and a big part of chemistry is taken care of .   So it comes down to timing and I'll add management.  Understanding that management is responsible for acquisitions.

Right now with this fanbase, it's hard to determine the difference between the guys who see restart and rebuild and just doing something different for the excitement of doing something different.   If it is restart and rebuild, that suggest that there's a plan behind it.  That suggests that this was done with timing.

My experience is this.  New GMs like to start off completely new.   They have firesales for the sake of having firesales and rarely are they rebuilding with a true to God plan.   It's only an opportunity for them to erase what the previous GM put in place and a chance for them to make their mark.  Therefore, I'm not willing to quickly believe that this is a restart and rebuild as you have elegantly stated but more likely this was just a firesale to give this gm a clean slate so that he will have the capspace and draft picks to do what he wants to do.  He probably didn't even have a draft or FA target... he just wanted to clean the house. 

That's what leads to treadmilling in the lottery.

To be fair... Horford was a big part of that team and was the result of of us literally winning the lottery. At some point in the season, when we knew that we would likely not the playoffs, tanking would have actually been in our better interests, as that pick would have gone to Phoenix outside of the top 3.  Regardless, we were better off with him and INCHES away from Durant.

I will admit though, it can be done. I've seen it with my own eyes now. It absolutely has to happen via free agency though and that's just not a viable option for us. I won't even entertain a debate over what it would take to rewrite the stigma about our franchise. I know you believe that a culture of winning will change that, but this is a "chicken or the egg" merry-go-round. 

Top talent creates the winning culture vs. the winning culture draws the top talent. I think it's pretty cut and dry what actually leads to what, but logically there's not a good reason to doubt the effect of a positive (i.e. non-loser/tanker) attitude without a star talent. Danny Ferry did exactly that.

...and to your latter point, I'm not seeing any difference between a new GM wiping the slate clean and a current GM rebooting to rebuild.  Their motives are exactly the same - get capspace and picks to do what they want. 

[Wretch]

10 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

And it is not a myth that you can build through the lottery. I think the list of modern NBA champions will prove that as well. Ferry came from the Spurs who are the lottery darlings with Duncan and the Admiral. He also inherited our all star lottery pick and best player in Al Horford.

I like Ferry but don't think for one minute he did not appreciate the Horford lottery selection. Ferry is a real bad example to say the least.

[MaceCase]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Unfortunately, you're not working for the Kings.  IN fact, your Business was in the top 1/2 every year.   Were they hemorrhagging money... probably... made some bad deals but it wasn't a "Failed Business" .  So you come to a Business that has shown some success for the last 10 years and 3 years out of it's most successful year in company History and still has the same CEO and you say that you want to Scrap everything and start over.  Then when asked about a timeline for success.. you call it a STRAWMAN????

 

+2

[KB21]

Ferry’s 60 win Hawks team was not built through the lottery.  In fact, when he traded Joe and Marvin, everyone thought the Hawks were tanking.  The team that Ferry put together with great Fa acquisitions, won 38 games without Al.  

[Buzzard]

32 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Hopefully we will have another draft that is as promising this year. That brought back some good memories!

[buckyboy2]

19 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

Hopefully we will have another draft that is as promising this year. That brought back some good memories!

But you have to take the good with the bad...

Edited March 31, 2018 by buckyboy2

[Buzzard]

Just now, buckyboy2 said:

But you have to take the good with the bad...

No I don't. I play golf and it is called selective memory. I am better at the selective memory part than the golf part.