The Tank Thread

[AHF]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Teams are hard press to trade them these days. You gotta have a Blake Griffin type to even interest teams in moving a pick like that unless it's a weak draft class.

We got one recently for Jeff Teague so I'd say a future Harden would command more than that for sure.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

We got one recently for Jeff Teague so I'd say a future Harden would command more than that for sure.

Yep. The best example would be what Cleveland got for Kyrie.

That's an All star, a lottery pick in a strong draft class and cap relief.

[marco102]

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

For all you tankers who believe that it's an immediate jump back into the championship picture... consider this.

Schlenk and our ownership probably have mapped out a plan that looks like this:

1.  4 -5  years of High and Mid level Lottery picks. 

2.  in the 4 to 5 years seek FAs.

then start team building to get into the championship picture.

the first question is why?

Why?

1.  They want to wait out Lebron and Golden State.   Lebron has maybe 3 more years of viability and the Warriors have about 3 more years before their contracts tear them apart. 

2.  Making Money.  own a franchise is about making money... not necessarily winning.   How much does an owner get for winning?  How much does an owner get for keeping his team cheap and capitalizing off of BRI and TV Contracts?

3. Building a Fanbase.   The Atlanta Fanbase is fickle.   You see it in every sport.  The Hawks ownership recognize that they won't get the loyalty that other markets may have.  So they keep the fans excited with Young cardiac kids.  It's what the Green Bay Packers did years ago when they were not really good but they didn't want to lose their legendary fans.  They marketed the cardiac kids.  People thought that these guys would do something and they were not built to.

What Atlanta will do is keep this group young.  Feed the fans lots of dunks and appearances.  Improve the good guy image of the Hawks. 

Then when the time is right, they will forsake some of these cardiac kids and go after a FA or two. 

So my prediction is that we are about 7 years away from championship contention. 

I think that the only players who may still be on this team when we get there are Collins and whoever we draft.  Next year, Dennis and Prince are probably traded away possibly for nothing. 

 

 

Like why are you and KB so caught up on how long this will take.  We are not idiots. It may workout it may not.  We were in the playoffs for 10 years and did not sniff a championship.  So we have another 10 years to try to make this strategy work. If you're being fair about the situation and all. 

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Like why are you and KB so caught up on how long this will take.  We are not idiots. It may workout it may not.  We were in the playoffs for 10 years and did not sniff a championship.  So we have another 10 years to try to make this strategy work. If you're being fair about the situation and all. 

No, you don't get 10 years, because that 10 year playoff run was not contiguous with the same players in each season.  Danny Ferry remade this team and had them at 60 wins within 2 seasons.

So, because of that, I'll give you 2 seasons to show me that this strategy works.  If we aren't back in the playoffs within 2 seasons, then it didn't work.

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

No, you don't get 10 years, because that 10 year playoff run was not contiguous with the same players in each season.  Danny Ferry remade this team and had them at 60 wins within 2 seasons.

So, because of that, I'll give you 2 seasons to show me that this strategy works.  If we aren't back in the playoffs within 2 seasons, then it didn't work.

Well if you think about it, the rebuild won't have the same players in each season either.  So how are you going to give it two years, when the Hawks may have an entirely different roster next year? 

Edited April 3, 2018 by marco102

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Well if you think about it, the rebuild won't have the same players in each season either.  So how are you going to give it two years, when the Hawks may have an entirely different roster next year? 

Because the rebuild started this year, whereas Danny Ferry started his in 2012-2013.  

[marco102]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Because the rebuild started this year, whereas Danny Ferry started his in 2012-2013.  

Ok..lol

I have to commend you.  Without you, this thread may have been 10 pages at best, but you are steadfast in your beliefs and I have to respect that. 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Ok..lol

I have to commend you.  Without you, this thread may have been 10 pages at best, but you are steadfast in your beliefs and I have to respect that. 

I'm not easily brainwashed into thinking that a strategy that has proven to fail is the long term answer for anything.  I also do not subscribe to group think ideals.  I also see nothing positive that comes from losing.

[marco102]

Just now, KB21 said:

I'm not easily brainwashed into thinking that a strategy that has proven to fail is the long term answer for anything.  I also do not subscribe to group think ideals.  I also see nothing positive that comes from losing.

See I feel like you're insulting me with this comment. I'm not easily brainwashed or into group think.  I see a strategy that could pay off.  I'm not oblivious to how this works.  If you go to the markets and want a super high return, you invest in high risk securities.  The Hawks are essentially doing the same thing.  

There is no guarantee with your strategy or the current strategy.  No matter how much you try and act like there is. 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

See I feel like you're insulting me with this comment. I'm not easily brainwashed or into group think.  I see a strategy that could pay off.  I'm not oblivious to how this works.  If you go to the markets and want a super high return, you invest in high risk securities.  The Hawks are essentially doing the same thing.  

There is no guarantee with your strategy or the current strategy.  No matter how much you try and act like there is. 

There is a guarantee with this strategy though.  This team is guaranteed to lose for the next 5 years because of this strategy.  That's what is unacceptable to me.  They are going into this strategy knowing full well how long it is going to take to climb out of this hole they dug, and they are accepting that losing.  That's how a losing culture is established, and that's the most difficult aspect to overcome.  I also don't believe young players, particularly these AAU brats, can properly develop in losing environments.

[JSmooooove]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

There is a guarantee with this strategy though.  This team is guaranteed to lose for the next 5 years because of this strategy.  That's what is unacceptable to me.  They are going into this strategy knowing full well how long it is going to take to climb out of this hole they dug, and they are accepting that losing.  That's how a losing culture is established, and that's the most difficult aspect to overcome.  I also don't believe young players, particularly these AAU brats, can properly develop in losing environments.

That's not guaranteed. We could sign LeBron this summer. You can't tell the future so stop with all of your absolutes. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, JSmooooove said:

That's not guaranteed. We could sign LeBron this summer. You can't tell the future so stop with all of your absolutes. 

I agree it is not guaranteed that this team will be losing big for the next 5 years but I do guarantee that LeBron will not even consider Atlanta this summer.  That is an absolute lock down guarantee.

[JSmooooove]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

I agree it is not guaranteed that this team will be losing big for the next 5 years but I do guarantee that LeBron will not even consider Atlanta this summer.  That is an absolute lock down guarantee.

Yeah everyone knows that, I was just making a point that we could be back in contention at any time because nobody knows the future. LeBron could get hit buy a bus today and Embiid chooses to retire to try to explore the world or something then the East is wide open. WHO KNOWS. 

If certain posters would stop talking in absolutes and GUARANTEES the conversation would be a lot more enjoyable. Right now it's just annoying AF.

Edited April 3, 2018 by JSmooooove

[KB21]

18 minutes ago, JSmooooove said:

Yeah everyone knows that, I was just making a point that we could be back in contention at any time because nobody knows the future. LeBron could get hit buy a bus today and Embiid chooses to retire to try to explore the world or something then the East is wide open. WHO KNOWS. 

If certain posters would stop talking in absolutes and GUARANTEES the conversation would be a lot more enjoyable. Right now it's just annoying AF.

I know.  It's extremely annoying to see people talking about how great tanking is and how great losing is.

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, JSmooooove said:

Yeah everyone knows that, I was just making a point that we could be back in contention at any time because nobody knows the future. LeBron could get hit buy a bus today and Embiid chooses to retire to try to explore the world or something then the East is wide open. WHO KNOWS. 

If certain posters would stop talking in absolutes and GUARANTEES the conversation would be a lot more enjoyable. Right now it's just annoying AF.

IMO, there are no posters here who don't bring good content.  There are some over the years who have gotten fixated on a subject and beaten a dead horse over and over.  The ignore feature might be something to consider if any posters are crossing that line for you.  Certain threads may also be a good idea to avoid.  If you are annoyed by people who like the idea of rebuilding through the draft, then the tanking thread is probably not for you.  If you are annoyed by people who hate the idea of rebuilding through the draft, then the tanking thread is also probably not for you.  Those perspectives will be the primary focus of posts in this thread.  Conversely, the other mods and I are doing our best to keep threads like the draft thread clear of this stuff so people can talk prospects without entering  territory.

[KB21]

I think it is hard to separate the draft and tanking subjects, because the fact is, because of the tanking, you are putting whoever you draft into a poor position that is not ideal for success.

[AHF]

40 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think it is hard to separate the draft and tanking subjects, because the fact is, because of the tanking, you are putting whoever you draft into a poor position that is not ideal for success.

It is really easy.  One thread is about who we want to draft.  The other is about tanking.  People who are sick of the tanking discussion should not have to read about anyone views on whether this was the right direction for the franchise.  When the draft arrives, that decision on whether to come into the season looking to make the playoffs or looking to rebuild through the draft will have been made over a year ago and will have already been executed.  The question then is what players to draft with the picks we have.

If the discussion opens up thoughts on the direction of the franchise, then bring them back to the tanking thread.

[buckyboy2]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

That's true in some cases.   However, making as oppose to losing money is more optimum.   For if the money didn't matter, then all teams would go into the luxury tax for the prestige of winning a championship... but they don't. 

They would if they could add a star player who could get them over the top. Not many teams are in that situation tho..ONly a handful teams with any hopes of a championship this year..GS/HOu/OKC/CLE,toronto? And IM pretty sure theyre all paying it..Or close to it..

Edited April 3, 2018 by buckyboy2

[Peoriabird]

9 minutes ago, buckyboy2 said:

They would if they could add a star player who could get them over the top. Not many teams are in that situation tho..ONly a handful teams with any hopes of a championship this year..GS/HOu/OKC/CLE,toronto? And IM pretty sure theyre all paying it..Or close to it..

Don't you know that winning a championship is just a matter of spending the most money?  Every anti-tank genius knows that!  LOL!

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, buckyboy2 said:

They would if they could add a star player who could get them over the top. Not many teams are in that situation tho..ONly a handful teams with any hopes of a championship this year..GS/HOu/OKC/CLE,toronto? And IM pretty sure theyre all paying it..Or close to it..

According to Sportrac's current cap data, the following teams are over the ~$119M luxury tax threshold:

GS Warriors

CLE Cavs

OKC Thunder

WAS Wizards

Houston and Toronto are both beneath the tax line

 

Oh, and don't forget your theoretical maybe good enough to make the playoffs but very possible not theoretical Hawks who should clearly be paying the tax and the league's 4th highest payroll:

 

Roster Spots	Diesel Roster	Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	John Collins	$1,936,920
6	Tyler Dorsey	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12	Tim Hardaway	$16,500,000
13
14
15
	Total:	$123,921,639