The Truth about Lloyd Pierce (Insider Thread)

[NBASupes]

This is a thread about LP and his time in Atlanta and what was good and bad and the real truth. 

He's gifted.
Tremendous eye for talent
Work ethic
He understands the modern game exceptionally well
He knows what works and how it should be implemented.
Player development
Coaches planning prep

LP did a lot of good things that we still use to this day. The problem was his communication with players, using them to perform at their best and not to fit his system and most importantly, his gameday coaching was ass. He needed a lot more coaching development even though his talent level is tremendous.

Let's get real with LP

1. Why did LP get the job? He killed interviews, he fit what Atlanta wanted in a rebuilding coach and he wanted to implement a modern style to the game. 

2. Who that we signed or drafted that LP was critical for? Everyone we signed or traded for that impacted winning, LP signed off on. LP didn't sign off on guys like Parsons and Turner but those guys were from Travis long term vision. Draft wise, while Kevin was liked by LP, he was Travis's guy. The scouts loved Omari and Travis did too. LP didn't care for him as much. Trae would likely not be in Atlanta if it wasn't for LP. Tony liked Luka and even the hometown kid Sexton more, scouts liked JJJ, Travis and Peterson leaned JJJ but loved Trae as well. LP worked out JJJ, liked him but he fell in love with Trae. The org did as well. While TS will say that they was going to take Luka at 3, I never believed it. They knew Dallas and Memphis wanted him and used him as bait.

LP was critical for Hunter. Travis wanted Culver but LP worked out both and promised Hunter. LP didn't like Clarke who TS loved as did I. LP and TS loved Reddish but LP wanted both Reddish and Hunter while TS wanted to see him he could get Barrett who he liked more than either player. Our scouts also was in love with Hunter. LP felt he could develop into K. Leonard. Both felt Reddish had PG potential but LP felt Cam was ready to play right now, TS wasn't so sure nor were the scouts. Bruno was loved by all of them. Okongwu was more of TS call but LP liked his long term potential. Both wanted Haliburton the most. Hali turned down the Hawks and wanted to go elsewhere. 

3. The good? His rookie HC year was a massive hit. His creativity was the star of the league. A lot of teams were stealing his plays. He got a team that many felt was awful to overachieve and he coached well. This got him invited to the USA coaching staff where he was the star performer. This is where the coaching fraternity seen him as the future and the it guy. Everyone fell in love with him. His work ethic and knowledge was 2nd to none. He was honest and his player reports was a hype of legends. Coach K sung his praises as did Pop and Boehiem. He bexame that guy 

4. The bad? He was honest and he was a big part of the reason Trae was cut for Derrick White, not Pop. Trae actually played well at that camp. LP had extremely high expectations for Young. He didn't feel like Trae was playing winning Basketball and until he did, he was a hard ass on him. When he spoke to other coaches about Trae, almost everyone would agree, including our guys. I mean everyone. LP wasn't seen as a liar but he didn't go to bat for his guys. 

5. Trae wasn't one of the 40+ players invited to USA camp in 2020, why? LP told them he doesn't deserve it. Still hasn't changed his style of Basketball. This is a fact that LP did this. LP also told Trae I was told and it was the beginning of the end. Trae didn't mind the tough love but when LP did this, Trae felt LP crossed the line. 

6. Trae didn't make the ASG in Atlanta because LP told coaches not to. This is not true. LP didn't tell coaches not to vote for Trae but LP told the coaches about how Trae is like and they kinda was not impressed with him even if the stats were good. The narrative was there and it wasn't going nowhere. 

7. Collins hated LP. This is NOT true. Collins liked LP and wasn't super happy when he was fired. He just didn't like LP not listening to him when he said he could be a post up player and he didn't like LP unwillingness to listen to the players but he was the #2 option. He also didn't like that LP said, we don't run plays for JC. He felt that was disrespectful to the work he puts in. I would say JC was not the reason he got fired. JC role actually has gotten smaller since Nate took over. 

8. Reddish. While LP loved the idea of Reddish, he didn't really like him as a player. He didn't like the fact that Cam has all of the talent in the world and he was playing soft. He didn't like the fact that Cam's confidence would come and go. He didn't like that Cam wasn't a natural fit as a spot up guy which LP wanted Cam to develop into. He did love his defense and felt it was critical considering how Trae is. LP was hardest on Trae, Cam, and Hunter. While Cam had an amazing offseason in terms of production and earning his peers respect at runs he didn't come back overly better at anything while Hunter improved on everything LP asked him to improve on. Like Trae, Cam was targeted a lot by LP as he went to bat for them and wanted to see growth from them. A big part of the reason he was fired was due to Cam but Trae was probably the biggest. 3rd was the record and Atlanta had to make a change or Tony was going to do it himself. Within the org, many still Cam has the potential to be a superstar but they want to see him make a true commitment into improvement and not earning respect from peers because the NBA is a lot different than runs and you have to fit rules in the NBA. Defense is not enough for a player in 2021. 

9. Trae. While Trae is the biggest reason why LP is gone. When I say the league felt he was the reason and questioned him, including ALL of our guys, even Nate. This really hurt Trae's name and stock within the league. Everyone felt LP was spot on for Trae, even Nate and our coaches did. Truth is, LP system while modern didn't work for Trae. He can't play in a really fast pace. He plays too reckless and LP system was like Houston. He wanted his wings to be DPS but they had to stand in the corner and be reactors. Bogi struggled mightly at it. Cam sucked at it. Kevin was inconsistent at it like he is with everything. Nate changed the pace and ran actions for Bogi and what do you know. The Hawks are good. Honestly, Nate almost rurned down this job and he thought LP was doing an excellent job and he suffered due to injuries and a failure to finish games. Nate massively improved the squad but he's still running the LP system, but with Nate's style.

10. Did others hate LP? No. From what I was told, he was liked but Bogi wasn't a fan of his role with LP. LP used him to play like a PG. Nate just using him to his strength. Kevin loved LP. Hunter really loved LP. Clint really loved him too. It really was Trae and Cam which make sense, he went the hardest at those two the most, especially Cam. 

11.He wasn't' without flaws. His system did not fit his personnel so instead of listening to the players. He wanted them to fit his vision for them. This limited Trae, Cam, Bogi, and Gallo. Just by running actions and getting the ball to Bogi in quality position, he massively improved. Gallo massively improved. Cam had his best game v. Boston with Nate. This is what ended LP in my book. 

12. LP will have an uphill batter to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even he game and money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. 

[Jdawgflow]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is a thread about LP and his time in Atlanta and what was good and bad and the real truth. 

He's gifted.
Tremendous eye for talent
Work ethic
He understands the modern game exceptionally well
He knows what works and how it should be implemented.
Player development
Coaches planning prep

LP did a lot of good things that we still use to this day. The problem was his communication with players, using them to perform at their best and not to fit his system and most importantly, his gameday coaching was ass. He needed a lot more coaching development even though his talent level is tremendous.

Let's get real with LP

1. Why did LP get the job? He killed interviews, he fit what Atlanta wanted in a rebuilding coach and he wanted to implement a modern style to the game. 

2. Who that we signed or drafted that LP was critical for? Everyone we signed or traded for that impacted winning, LP signed off on. LP didn't sign off on guys like Parsons and Turner but those guys were from Travis long term vision. Draft wise, while Kevin was liked by LP, he was Travis's guy. The scouts loved Omari and Travis did too. LP didn't care for him as much. Trae would likely not be in Atlanta if it wasn't for LP. Tony liked Luka and even the hometown kid Sexton more, scouts liked JJJ, Travis and Peterson leaned JJJ but loved Trae as well. LP worked out JJJ, liked him but he fell in love with Trae. The org did as well. While TS will say that they was going to take Luka at 3, I never believed it. They knew Dallas and Memphis wanted him and used him as bait.

LP was critical for Hunter. Travis wanted Culver but LP worked out both and promised Hunter. LP didn't like Clarke who TS loved as did I. LP and TS loved Reddish but LP wanted both Reddish and Hunter while TS wanted to see him he could get Barrett who he liked more than either player. Our scouts also was in love with Hunter. LP felt he could develop into K. Leonard. Both felt Reddish had PG potential but LP felt Cam was ready to play right now, TS wasn't so sure nor were the scouts. Bruno was loved by all of them. Okongwu was more of TS call but LP liked his long term potential. Both wanted Haliburton the most. Hali turned down the Hawks and wanted to go elsewhere. 

3. The good? His rookie HC year was a massive hit. His creativity was the star of the league. A lot of teams were stealing his plays. He got a team that many felt was awful to overachieve and he coached well. This got him invited to the USA coaching staff where he was the star performer. This is where the coaching fraternity seen him as the future and the it guy. Everyone fell in love with him. His work ethic and knowledge was 2nd to none. He was honest and his player reports was a hype of legends. Coach K sung his praises as did Pop and Boehiem. He bexame that guy 

4. The bad? He was honest and he was a big part of the reason Trae was cut for Derrick White, not Pop. Trae actually played well at that camp. LP had extremely high expectations for Young. He didn't feel like Trae was playing winning Basketball and until he did, he was a hard ass on him. When he spoke to other coaches about Trae, almost everyone would agree, including our guys. I mean everyone. LP wasn't seen as a liar but he didn't go to bat for his guys. 

5. Trae wasn't one of the 40+ players invited to USA camp in 2020, why? LP told them he doesn't deserve it. Still hasn't changed his style of Basketball. This is a fact that LP did this. LP also told Trae I was told and it was the beginning of the end. Trae didn't mind the tough love but when LP did this, Trae felt LP crossed the line. 

6. Trae didn't make the ASG in Atlanta because LP told coaches not to. This is not true. LP didn't tell coaches not to vote for Trae but LP told the coaches about how Trae is like and they kinda was not impressed with him even if the stats were good. The narrative was there and it wasn't going nowhere. 

7. Collins hated LP. This is NOT true. Collins liked LP and wasn't super happy when he was fired. He just didn't like LP not listening to him when he said he could be a post up player and he didn't like LP unwillingness to listen to the players but he was the #2 option. He also didn't like that LP said, we don't run plays for JC. He felt that was disrespectful to the work he puts in. I would say JC was not the reason he got fired. JC role actually has gotten smaller since Nate took over. 

8. Reddish. While LP loved the idea of Reddish, he didn't really like him as a player. He didn't like the fact that Cam has all of the talent in the world and he was playing soft. He didn't like the fact that Cam's confidence would come and go. He didn't like that Cam wasn't a natural fit as a spot up guy which LP wanted Cam to develop into. He did love his defense and felt it was critical considering how Trae is. LP was hardest on Trae, Cam, and Hunter. While Cam had an amazing offseason in terms of production and earning his peers respect at runs he didn't come back overly better at anything while Hunter improved on everything LP asked him to improve on. Like Trae, Cam was targeted a lot by LP as he went to bat for them and wanted to see growth from them. A big part of the reason he was fired was due to Cam but Trae was probably the biggest. 3rd was the record and Atlanta had to make a change or Tony was going to do it himself. Within the org, many still Cam has the potential to be a superstar but they want to see him make a true commitment into improvement and not earning respect from peers because the NBA is a lot different than runs and you have to fit rules in the NBA. Defense is not enough for a player in 2021. 

9. Trae. While Trae is the biggest reason why LP is gone. When I say the league felt he was the reason and questioned him, including ALL of our guys, even Nate. This really hurt Trae's name and stock within the league. Everyone felt LP was spot on for Trae, even Nate and our coaches did. Truth is, LP system while modern didn't work for Trae. He can't play in a really fast pace. He plays too reckless and LP system was like Houston. He wanted his wings to be DPS but they had to stand in the corner and be reactors. Bogi struggled mightly at it. Cam sucked at it. Kevin was inconsistent at it like he is with everything. Nate changed the pace and ran actions for Bogi and what do you know. The Hawks are good. Honestly, Nate almost rurned down this job and he thought LP was doing an excellent job and he suffered due to injuries and a failure to finish games. Nate massively improved the squad but he's still running the LP system, but with Nate's style.

10. Did others hate LP? No. From what I was told, he was liked but Bogi wasn't a fan of his role with LP. LP used him to play like a PG. Nate just using him to his strength. Kevin loved LP. Hunter really loved LP. Clint really loved him too. It really was Trae and Cam which make sense, he went the hardest at those two the most, especially Cam. 

11.He wasn't' without flaws. His system did not fit his personnel so instead of listening to the players. He wanted them to fit his vision for them. This limited Trae, Cam, Bogi, and Gallo. Just by running actions and getting the ball to Bogi in quality position, he massively improved. Gallo massively improved. Cam had his best game v. Boston with Nate. This is what ended LP in my book. 

12. LP will have an uphill batter to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even he game and money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. 

Scoreboard is all I need.  Just like Trae telling Bullock.  LP was a loser as a coach.  Nate has dominated with the same team.  
 

PS - throwing your guys under the bus is not a good look.  Trae is a superstar with a coach who believes in him instead of one who thinks his guys aren’t good enough.

[REHawksFan]

Sounds like LP was a guy who could see the immense potential in Trae, Cam, and Hunter and was trying to ride them until they unlocked it.  Unfortunately, not everyone responds well to that kind of "coaching".  Some do and use it to drive them to success while others just get pissed off and push back.  Seems like Hunter was the former, Cam the latter. Trae was somewhere in between.  

A good coach is not only able to see the potential in their players, but is also able to understand each player's personality and then can figure out how to pull all that potential out in a way that suits each player individually.  Coaching is as much about psychology and relational aspects with players as it is about the X's and O's.  

That's my take from all this anyway.  At the end of the day, Nate has figured out how to maximize the elite talent of Trae and all of the supporting cast and has turned a train wreck into a damn freight train barreling through the playoffs.  

[bird_dirt]

I can't wait to see how Cam plays for Nate.

Given what Supes says, it will be interesting to see how our next few drafts pan out. Will TS continue to have a golden touch, or was LP doing the heavy lifting selecting our picks? What will Nate's increased influence on draft selections look like?

[marco102]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is a thread about LP and his time in Atlanta and what was good and bad and the real truth. 

He's gifted.
Tremendous eye for talent
Work ethic
He understands the modern game exceptionally well
He knows what works and how it should be implemented.
Player development
Coaches planning prep

LP did a lot of good things that we still use to this day. The problem was his communication with players, using them to perform at their best and not to fit his system and most importantly, his gameday coaching was ass. He needed a lot more coaching development even though his talent level is tremendous.

Let's get real with LP

1. Why did LP get the job? He killed interviews, he fit what Atlanta wanted in a rebuilding coach and he wanted to implement a modern style to the game. 

2. Who that we signed or drafted that LP was critical for? Everyone we signed or traded for that impacted winning, LP signed off on. LP didn't sign off on guys like Parsons and Turner but those guys were from Travis long term vision. Draft wise, while Kevin was liked by LP, he was Travis's guy. The scouts loved Omari and Travis did too. LP didn't care for him as much. Trae would likely not be in Atlanta if it wasn't for LP. Tony liked Luka and even the hometown kid Sexton more, scouts liked JJJ, Travis and Peterson leaned JJJ but loved Trae as well. LP worked out JJJ, liked him but he fell in love with Trae. The org did as well. While TS will say that they was going to take Luka at 3, I never believed it. They knew Dallas and Memphis wanted him and used him as bait.

LP was critical for Hunter. Travis wanted Culver but LP worked out both and promised Hunter. LP didn't like Clarke who TS loved as did I. LP and TS loved Reddish but LP wanted both Reddish and Hunter while TS wanted to see him he could get Barrett who he liked more than either player. Our scouts also was in love with Hunter. LP felt he could develop into K. Leonard. Both felt Reddish had PG potential but LP felt Cam was ready to play right now, TS wasn't so sure nor were the scouts. Bruno was loved by all of them. Okongwu was more of TS call but LP liked his long term potential. Both wanted Haliburton the most. Hali turned down the Hawks and wanted to go elsewhere. 

3. The good? His rookie HC year was a massive hit. His creativity was the star of the league. A lot of teams were stealing his plays. He got a team that many felt was awful to overachieve and he coached well. This got him invited to the USA coaching staff where he was the star performer. This is where the coaching fraternity seen him as the future and the it guy. Everyone fell in love with him. His work ethic and knowledge was 2nd to none. He was honest and his player reports was a hype of legends. Coach K sung his praises as did Pop and Boehiem. He bexame that guy 

4. The bad? He was honest and he was a big part of the reason Trae was cut for Derrick White, not Pop. Trae actually played well at that camp. LP had extremely high expectations for Young. He didn't feel like Trae was playing winning Basketball and until he did, he was a hard ass on him. When he spoke to other coaches about Trae, almost everyone would agree, including our guys. I mean everyone. LP wasn't seen as a liar but he didn't go to bat for his guys. 

5. Trae wasn't one of the 40+ players invited to USA camp in 2020, why? LP told them he doesn't deserve it. Still hasn't changed his style of Basketball. This is a fact that LP did this. LP also told Trae I was told and it was the beginning of the end. Trae didn't mind the tough love but when LP did this, Trae felt LP crossed the line. 

6. Trae didn't make the ASG in Atlanta because LP told coaches not to. This is not true. LP didn't tell coaches not to vote for Trae but LP told the coaches about how Trae is like and they kinda was not impressed with him even if the stats were good. The narrative was there and it wasn't going nowhere. 

7. Collins hated LP. This is NOT true. Collins liked LP and wasn't super happy when he was fired. He just didn't like LP not listening to him when he said he could be a post up player and he didn't like LP unwillingness to listen to the players but he was the #2 option. He also didn't like that LP said, we don't run plays for JC. He felt that was disrespectful to the work he puts in. I would say JC was not the reason he got fired. JC role actually has gotten smaller since Nate took over. 

8. Reddish. While LP loved the idea of Reddish, he didn't really like him as a player. He didn't like the fact that Cam has all of the talent in the world and he was playing soft. He didn't like the fact that Cam's confidence would come and go. He didn't like that Cam wasn't a natural fit as a spot up guy which LP wanted Cam to develop into. He did love his defense and felt it was critical considering how Trae is. LP was hardest on Trae, Cam, and Hunter. While Cam had an amazing offseason in terms of production and earning his peers respect at runs he didn't come back overly better at anything while Hunter improved on everything LP asked him to improve on. Like Trae, Cam was targeted a lot by LP as he went to bat for them and wanted to see growth from them. A big part of the reason he was fired was due to Cam but Trae was probably the biggest. 3rd was the record and Atlanta had to make a change or Tony was going to do it himself. Within the org, many still Cam has the potential to be a superstar but they want to see him make a true commitment into improvement and not earning respect from peers because the NBA is a lot different than runs and you have to fit rules in the NBA. Defense is not enough for a player in 2021. 

9. Trae. While Trae is the biggest reason why LP is gone. When I say the league felt he was the reason and questioned him, including ALL of our guys, even Nate. This really hurt Trae's name and stock within the league. Everyone felt LP was spot on for Trae, even Nate and our coaches did. Truth is, LP system while modern didn't work for Trae. He can't play in a really fast pace. He plays too reckless and LP system was like Houston. He wanted his wings to be DPS but they had to stand in the corner and be reactors. Bogi struggled mightly at it. Cam sucked at it. Kevin was inconsistent at it like he is with everything. Nate changed the pace and ran actions for Bogi and what do you know. The Hawks are good. Honestly, Nate almost rurned down this job and he thought LP was doing an excellent job and he suffered due to injuries and a failure to finish games. Nate massively improved the squad but he's still running the LP system, but with Nate's style.

10. Did others hate LP? No. From what I was told, he was liked but Bogi wasn't a fan of his role with LP. LP used him to play like a PG. Nate just using him to his strength. Kevin loved LP. Hunter really loved LP. Clint really loved him too. It really was Trae and Cam which make sense, he went the hardest at those two the most, especially Cam. 

11.He wasn't' without flaws. His system did not fit his personnel so instead of listening to the players. He wanted them to fit his vision for them. This limited Trae, Cam, Bogi, and Gallo. Just by running actions and getting the ball to Bogi in quality position, he massively improved. Gallo massively improved. Cam had his best game v. Boston with Nate. This is what ended LP in my book. 

12. LP will have an uphill batter to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even he game and money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. 

So Supes the national media narrative that Trae was selfish and didn't play winning basketball is true? From the way your information is presented, thats what I'm gathering. It seems strange that they would tell Trae, in his second season, that they would get him help if they felt he wasn't playing winning basketball.

Edited June 4, 2021 by marco102

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, Jdawgflow said:

Scoreboard is all I need.  Just like Trae telling Bullock.  LP was a loser as a coach.  Nate has dominated with the same team.  
 

PS - throwing your guys under the bus is not a good look.  Trae is a superstar with a coach who believes in him instead of one who thinks his guys aren’t good enough.

LP wasn't a loser as a HC. A  big part of Nate's success is the fact that he's an elite gameday coach whereas LP is a major WIP but LP did a lot of things the coaches felt was exceptional, Nate included. 

Nate's success with this squad is kinda luck more than anything. 

Trae hasn't been that much more productive with Nate than with LP. The difference is by slowing the pace significantly, what we consider shot quality has gone up exponentially which is what happens when you opt for slow pace compared to fast pace and Nate runs a lot more plays for individual players.

When Nate took over, we instantly saw improvement from Kevin and Gallo just due to the pace difference. Also, we saw our defense improve as turnovers drops and we were quicker to get set on defense under Nate than LP. The real change took place in April when we inserted Bogi into the starting 5. We all knew he was a good player in SAC and struggle with health early this year which really limited him on the court but we didn't know he was this damn good. No one did. Bogi impact stats have been in the top 10 since April of all NBA players. Clint's been our Trae for defense impact wise so we knew Clint was our most impactful player even if that's mainly due to Trae's presence. We did not know Bogi was this good. He's like a better Klay Thompson. When we signed him, we just thought he would be a more consistent Kevin Huerter with aggressiveness. He was much better than that. 

The coaching change helped the others more due to the pace change and him running plays for others. We still run LP's playbook and system. We added a few wrinkles but the pace change really slows down Trae and he's more likely to run the offense and less likely to dribble, dribble, dribble. LP ran a hybrid D'Antoni system with Spurs actions. Nate kept the offense but instead of turning up the heat to high, he lowered it to low. I will say, he doesn't get in his own way as much as LP does. LP loves his sub matters too much. LP doesn't believe in situational sub patterns. Nate does. I do feel that was worth maybe 2-3 more wins but truth is, Nate kinda got lucky. No one knew that this pace change would turn them into the Warriors. No one knew the system change would turn the Warriors into the Warriors. 

Coaches tend to do stuff like that. Nate doesn't. He doesn't have a whipping boy like LP had with Cam and he doesn't tell other coaches this guy is not ready yet for the USA team because he hasn't improved this and that when that player didn't get a chance to tryout and show the coaches for himself. 

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, marco102 said:

So Supes the national media narrative that Trae was selfish and didn't play winning basketball is true? From the way your information is presented, thats what I'm gathering. It seems strange that they would tell Trae, in his second season, that they would get him help if they felt he wasn't playing winning basketball.

Yes. It wasn't just true, we had players on this own roster who believed it as well. A lot of people did. It was one of the things TS felt Trae had to fix. That's why he was so damn commitment to improving who's around Trae. There was a couple FAs that lowed the Hawks as a FA option because of Trae. VC did not believe that, he told the team he felt Trae just needed more vets who can help. He really really pushed for Bogi to Atlanta. VC might not get his jersey retired here but he should. He's been massive for Cam, Trae, Hunter, and Bogi. 

 

They knew the team wasn't setup for success but they didn't think he played a style that would win in the NBA. By (they), the coaches and management around the league. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Yes. It wasn't just true, we had players on this own roster who believed it as well. A lot of people did. It was one of the things TS felt Trae had to fix. That's why he was so damn commitment to improving who's around Trae. There was a couple FAs that lowed the Hawks as a FA option because of Trae. 

I'm confused. If the free agents thought he was selfish and didn't play winning basketball, why would they want to come here?

My point being. Trae played hero ball because the team around him sucked. That was obvious from a mile away. He didn't seem like he was all about himself and the stats. May be behind the scenes he was?

Edited June 4, 2021 by marco102

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm confused. If the free agents thought he was selfish and didn't play winning basketball, why would they want to come here?

My point being. Trae played hero ball because the team around him sucked. That was obvious from a mile away. He didn't seem like he was all about himself and the stats. May be behind the seens he was?

Many didn't. Gordon used us for leveraged. A number of the top guys agents told TS they wasn't interested in joining the Hawks. Gallo wanted a big payday. Atlanta offered it. Rondo did as well, Atlanta offered it. Bogi was the only one we got that could have went elsewhere. VC sold him that this was the perfect fit. He sold him that Trae would get the most out of him. It didn't look good early on with LP and took some time with Nate but once it popped, my gawd! They look like Steph and Klay impact wise. 

I don't know if those within and outside of the org believe that. Even all of our own coaches including Nate. Our system will always have the ball dominant players dominating the ball. It was just how Trae went about it. Jacking up threes, laziness which he still does a time or two, and just empty possessions was a lot more common. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[AHF]

The myth of Trae not playing winning ball and being super selfish should be dead at this point.  

It is really disappointing to me to hear how LP undermined Trae's exposure on the Olympic team, etc.  Getting more time and exposure to guys who play the game the right way at a high level and to coaches like Pops, etc. would only help his development.  

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is a thread about LP and his time in Atlanta and what was good and bad and the real truth. 

He's gifted.
Tremendous eye for talent
Work ethic
He understands the modern game exceptionally well
He knows what works and how it should be implemented.
Player development
Coaches planning prep

LP did a lot of good things that we still use to this day. The problem was his communication with players, using them to perform at their best and not to fit his system and most importantly, his gameday coaching was ass. He needed a lot more coaching development even though his talent level is tremendous.

Let's get real with LP

1. Why did LP get the job? He killed interviews, he fit what Atlanta wanted in a rebuilding coach and he wanted to implement a modern style to the game. 

2. Who that we signed or drafted that LP was critical for? Everyone we signed or traded for that impacted winning, LP signed off on. LP didn't sign off on guys like Parsons and Turner but those guys were from Travis long term vision. Draft wise, while Kevin was liked by LP, he was Travis's guy. The scouts loved Omari and Travis did too. LP didn't care for him as much. Trae would likely not be in Atlanta if it wasn't for LP. Tony liked Luka and even the hometown kid Sexton more, scouts liked JJJ, Travis and Peterson leaned JJJ but loved Trae as well. LP worked out JJJ, liked him but he fell in love with Trae. The org did as well. While TS will say that they was going to take Luka at 3, I never believed it. They knew Dallas and Memphis wanted him and used him as bait.

LP was critical for Hunter. Travis wanted Culver but LP worked out both and promised Hunter. LP didn't like Clarke who TS loved as did I. LP and TS loved Reddish but LP wanted both Reddish and Hunter while TS wanted to see him he could get Barrett who he liked more than either player. Our scouts also was in love with Hunter. LP felt he could develop into K. Leonard. Both felt Reddish had PG potential but LP felt Cam was ready to play right now, TS wasn't so sure nor were the scouts. Bruno was loved by all of them. Okongwu was more of TS call but LP liked his long term potential. Both wanted Haliburton the most. Hali turned down the Hawks and wanted to go elsewhere. 

3. The good? His rookie HC year was a massive hit. His creativity was the star of the league. A lot of teams were stealing his plays. He got a team that many felt was awful to overachieve and he coached well. This got him invited to the USA coaching staff where he was the star performer. This is where the coaching fraternity seen him as the future and the it guy. Everyone fell in love with him. His work ethic and knowledge was 2nd to none. He was honest and his player reports was a hype of legends. Coach K sung his praises as did Pop and Boehiem. He bexame that guy 

4. The bad? He was honest and he was a big part of the reason Trae was cut for Derrick White, not Pop. Trae actually played well at that camp. LP had extremely high expectations for Young. He didn't feel like Trae was playing winning Basketball and until he did, he was a hard ass on him. When he spoke to other coaches about Trae, almost everyone would agree, including our guys. I mean everyone. LP wasn't seen as a liar but he didn't go to bat for his guys. 

5. Trae wasn't one of the 40+ players invited to USA camp in 2020, why? LP told them he doesn't deserve it. Still hasn't changed his style of Basketball. This is a fact that LP did this. LP also told Trae I was told and it was the beginning of the end. Trae didn't mind the tough love but when LP did this, Trae felt LP crossed the line. 

6. Trae didn't make the ASG in Atlanta because LP told coaches not to. This is not true. LP didn't tell coaches not to vote for Trae but LP told the coaches about how Trae is like and they kinda was not impressed with him even if the stats were good. The narrative was there and it wasn't going nowhere. 

7. Collins hated LP. This is NOT true. Collins liked LP and wasn't super happy when he was fired. He just didn't like LP not listening to him when he said he could be a post up player and he didn't like LP unwillingness to listen to the players but he was the #2 option. He also didn't like that LP said, we don't run plays for JC. He felt that was disrespectful to the work he puts in. I would say JC was not the reason he got fired. JC role actually has gotten smaller since Nate took over. 

8. Reddish. While LP loved the idea of Reddish, he didn't really like him as a player. He didn't like the fact that Cam has all of the talent in the world and he was playing soft. He didn't like the fact that Cam's confidence would come and go. He didn't like that Cam wasn't a natural fit as a spot up guy which LP wanted Cam to develop into. He did love his defense and felt it was critical considering how Trae is. LP was hardest on Trae, Cam, and Hunter. While Cam had an amazing offseason in terms of production and earning his peers respect at runs he didn't come back overly better at anything while Hunter improved on everything LP asked him to improve on. Like Trae, Cam was targeted a lot by LP as he went to bat for them and wanted to see growth from them. A big part of the reason he was fired was due to Cam but Trae was probably the biggest. 3rd was the record and Atlanta had to make a change or Tony was going to do it himself. Within the org, many still Cam has the potential to be a superstar but they want to see him make a true commitment into improvement and not earning respect from peers because the NBA is a lot different than runs and you have to fit rules in the NBA. Defense is not enough for a player in 2021. 

9. Trae. While Trae is the biggest reason why LP is gone. When I say the league felt he was the reason and questioned him, including ALL of our guys, even Nate. This really hurt Trae's name and stock within the league. Everyone felt LP was spot on for Trae, even Nate and our coaches did. Truth is, LP system while modern didn't work for Trae. He can't play in a really fast pace. He plays too reckless and LP system was like Houston. He wanted his wings to be DPS but they had to stand in the corner and be reactors. Bogi struggled mightly at it. Cam sucked at it. Kevin was inconsistent at it like he is with everything. Nate changed the pace and ran actions for Bogi and what do you know. The Hawks are good. Honestly, Nate almost rurned down this job and he thought LP was doing an excellent job and he suffered due to injuries and a failure to finish games. Nate massively improved the squad but he's still running the LP system, but with Nate's style.

10. Did others hate LP? No. From what I was told, he was liked but Bogi wasn't a fan of his role with LP. LP used him to play like a PG. Nate just using him to his strength. Kevin loved LP. Hunter really loved LP. Clint really loved him too. It really was Trae and Cam which make sense, he went the hardest at those two the most, especially Cam. 

11.He wasn't' without flaws. His system did not fit his personnel so instead of listening to the players. He wanted them to fit his vision for them. This limited Trae, Cam, Bogi, and Gallo. Just by running actions and getting the ball to Bogi in quality position, he massively improved. Gallo massively improved. Cam had his best game v. Boston with Nate. This is what ended LP in my book. 

12. LP will have an uphill batter to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even he game and money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. 

I can vouch for some of this...but that's a lot of getting up in people's business I'm not comfortable with. The Cam thing is one of the better kept secrets in the league. When Cam gets back, do not be surprised if he looks bigger/more cut.  One of the things they argued about was core strength. Weight training and building is just harder for some but the org has been on Cam to work on his body to take his athleticism and consistency to the next level.  LP gave Cam tough love but Cam didn't respond well.  Not a knock on either.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, bird_dirt said:

I can't wait to see how Cam plays for Nate.

Given what Supes says, it will be interesting to see how our next few drafts pan out. Will TS continue to have a golden touch, or was LP doing the heavy lifting selecting our picks? What will Nate's increased influence on draft selections look like?

It will be interesting because one of Cam's biggest finds at Duke was that he was a pretty damn good movement player if you ran plays for him. LP wanted him to be more of a movement player without plays being called and far too often, he didn't make the simple movement like Hunter does. Bogi also struggled with this. Both are within the offense movement guys. We saw difference massively just in that one game Cam played v. Boston with Nate coaching. That simple change made Cam much better.

That said, Cam has to get a lot better this offseason. Cam has more talent than anyone but he improved the least coming into the season and regardless if he has tremendous runs against KD and other NBA stars. The NBA has coaches, system, schemes, coaches coaching to expose your flaws, analytics they tell your weaknesses, game tape, etc. Pickup runs are all about talent. Cam is an exceptional natural talent but he's not a good Basketball player yet. That's why TS/management and coaches are going to hold Cam in Atlanta for the entire summer (Summer League too) and take over his development process. That's our #1 priority. We used to do this with Hardaway Jr. and Moose. Most recently, JC. Cam is the player we feel has the most potential on the roster but he's the furthest from his peak, he's still very close to this floor. 

That's going to be the hard part. We saw with TS when he didn't include Bud, he took JC and Dorsey. Dorsey was a massive mistake. They didn't even workout JC, he fell to them and he was the highest value on the board. They (TS/scouts) had him as a lottery pick. 

With LP, him and TS was like brothers. They saw things eye to eye and when they didn't, TS realized he missed something. TS gonna really have do be good at scouting. He don't have that other guy with tremendous eyes that he's working with. Nate eyes are just iight. Just look at his team's picks during his career and outside of Portland, it's been underwhelming. His best year which seems like an anomaly was when he was able to draft both Aldridge and Brandon Roy in the same draft. His career steals was also in Portland in Patty Mills and Nic Batum. 

This is why we pay TS the big bucks. He gotta do a tremendous job making sure he sends good players to Nate and Nate has to do a good job of telling if this guy really has potential or he doesn't. This is a skill. Drafting is HARD. Guys like LP don't fall off trees. TS has pretty good eyes, I trust him. 

 

  

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

The myth of Trae not playing winning ball and being super selfish should be dead at this point.  

It is really disappointing to me to hear how LP undermined Trae's exposure on the Olympic team, etc.  Getting more time and exposure to guys who play the game the right way at a high level and to coaches like Pops, etc. would only help his development.  

It's not yet as he still has haters but it should be soon. From what's being said behind the scenes, LP is sold on Trae now. He thinks Trae is finally maturing. A lot of people think this. Bogi even said Trae is just learning to drive the Ferrari. He's changing his own teammates perception of him each day.  

Edited June 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[thecampster]

When I was in basic training, one of the drill sergeants went on a rant about 18 year olds vs the guys fresh out of college. I was sitting in the office doing my house mouse responsibilities (paperwork guy) and he remarked how he could tell I was older (23) at the time. Went crazy for a minute about the focus of the younger guys, etc.  A moment of candor if you will.  Always thought about that...A 19 year old and a 22 year old are not the same thing.  The male brain doesn't even finish developing until around 25 (https://bigthink.com/mind-brain/adult-brain?rebelltitem=2#rebelltitem2). Its hard as a coach as we look at them like they're all men but they really aren't. The maturity difference between guys fresh off their freshman year and a 6 year vet is immense. Some guys need that firm hand, some just need to grow. Cam seemed to be one that just needs to get there on his own.

 

[Jdawgflow]

43 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

LP wasn't a loser as a HC. A  big part of Nate's success is the fact that he's an elite gameday coach whereas LP is a major WIP but LP did a lot of things the coaches felt was exceptional, Nate included. 

Nate's success with this squad is kinda luck more than anything. 

Trae hasn't been that much more productive with Nate than with LP. The difference is by slowing the pace significantly, what we consider shot quality has gone up exponentially which is what happens when you opt for slow pace compared to fast pace and Nate runs a lot more plays for individual players.

When Nate took over, we instantly saw improvement from Kevin and Gallo just due to the pace difference. Also, we saw our defense improve as turnovers drops and we were quicker to get set on defense under Nate than LP. The real change took place in April when we inserted Bogi into the starting 5. We all knew he was a good player in SAC and struggle with health early this year which really limited him on the court but we didn't know he was this damn good. No one did. Bogi impact stats have been in the top 10 since April of all NBA players. Clint's been our Trae for defense impact wise so we knew Clint was our most impactful player even if that's mainly due to Trae's presence. We did not know Bogi was this good. He's like a better Klay Thompson. When we signed him, we just thought he would be a more consistent Kevin Huerter with aggressiveness. He was much better than that. 

The coaching change helped the others more due to the pace change and him running plays for others. We still run LP's playbook and system. We added a few wrinkles but the pace change really slows down Trae and he's more likely to run the offense and less likely to dribble, dribble, dribble. LP ran a hybrid D'Antoni system with Spurs actions. Nate kept the offense but instead of turning up the heat to high, he lowered it to low. I will say, he doesn't get in his own way as much as LP does. LP loves his sub matters too much. LP doesn't believe in situational sub patterns. Nate does. I do feel that was worth maybe 2-3 more wins but truth is, Nate kinda got lucky. No one knew that this pace change would turn them into the Warriors. No one knew the system change would turn the Warriors into the Warriors. 

Coaches tend to do stuff like that. Nate doesn't. He doesn't have a whipping boy like LP had with Cam and he doesn't tell other coaches this guy is not ready yet for the USA team because he hasn't improved this and that when that player didn't get a chance to tryout and show the coaches for himself. 

I disagree.  LP was a loser with us.  He lost…a lot.  And we immediately became a team that wins…a lot.  That is not luck as you say, but a coach, you know, coaching.  
 

PS- LP May grow into a winning coach later but he certainly was not with us. And I believe that if he stayed our coach Trae would not be where he is at now.  TOs are down, he is running the team, and his coach believes “he was made for this”.  In contrast to, don’t pick him for USA or AllStar team because he will not “play the right way”.

[Jdawgflow]

40 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm confused. If the free agents thought he was selfish and didn't play winning basketball, why would they want to come here?

My point being. Trae played hero ball because the team around him sucked. That was obvious from a mile away. He didn't seem like he was all about himself and the stats. May be behind the scenes he was?

I agree.  The hero ball was because TS built a bad team on purpose to build and LP told him to play that way…and then threw him under the bus.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Jdawgflow said:

I disagree.  LP was a loser with us.  He lost…a lot.  And we immediately became a team that wins…a lot.  That is not luck as you say, but a coach, you know, coaching.  
 

PS- LP May grow into a winning coach later but he certainly was not with us. And I believe that if he stayed our coach Trae would not be where he is at now.  TOs are down, he is running the team, and his coach believes “he was made for this”.  In contrast to, don’t pick him for USA or AllStar team because he will not “play the right way”.

A lot of it was luck. An elite coach ain't worth that many wins. A terrible coach isn't worth that many losses. A lot of this was luck. Same happened to Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson. Steve ain't 16 wins and a title better than Mark. In fact, there is a chance Mark could have more wins than Steve in many scenarios. 

Who knew slowing down the pace would turn Bogi into a better Klay Thompson? Who knew Trae would be more discipline with a slower pace? Who knew Kevin would be a much better defender if the defense is always set? Gallo might be one player we did know would benefit from a style change but we didn't know that for the others, especially Bogi who's been in an uptempo system for most of his career outside of his rookie year. I guess Bogi being the best player on the Kings as a rookie could have been a sign but they were terrible as a squad and most of the squad had to play fast to have success. Just saying, we didn't know. Sometimes these things just perfectly fit. 

[Jdawgflow]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

A lot of it was luck. An elite coach ain't worth that many wins. A terrible coach isn't worth that many losses. A lot of this was luck. Same happened to Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson. Steve ain't 16 wins and a title better than Mark. In fact, there is a chance Mark could have more wins than Steve in many scenarios. 

Who knew slowing down the pace would turn Bogi into a better Klay Thompson? Who knew Trae would be more discipline with a slower pace? Who knew Kevin would be a much better defender if the defense is always set? Gallo might be one player we did know would benefit from a style change but we didn't know that for the others, especially Bogi who's been in an uptempo system for most of his career outside of his rookie year. I guess Bogi being the best player on the Kings as a rookie could have been a sign but they were terrible as a squad and most of the squad had to play fast to have success. Just saying, we didn't know. Sometimes these things just perfectly fit. 

That argument you just made about luck confirms to me that there is no way luck is the only factor.  Statistically, the likelihood of this big of a turnaround almost primarily by a coaching change is minuscule.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.

[kg01]

It wouldn't surprise me if McMillan's 'messaging' is the same as Pierce's.  Sometimes the gift hits better when it's in a different package.

That said, I'm really just here waitin' for the "Truth about @NBASupes" insider thread.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Jdawgflow said:

That argument you just made about luck confirms to me that there is no way luck is the only factor.  Statistically, the likelihood of this big of a turnaround almost primarily by a coaching change is minuscule.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you, he is the biggest reason for our success. I just think he's benefitting for luck a lot more than LP was. He still a much better fit for us than LP was. LP not getting along with Trae wasn't going to get him far with the Hawks. It's simple as that. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if McMillan's 'messaging' is the same as Pierce's.  Sometimes the gift hits better when it's in a different package.

That said, I'm really just here waitin' for the "Truth about @NBASupes" insider thread.

I am just an IT professional who has contacts in high places due to my previous career choices and the company I used to keep.