Just an observation....

[terrell]

I'm still trying to figure out the real reason for the consistent lack of defense prior to last night's game...Does anyone on the Squawk think that maybe some guys don't feel fully utilized/included when Trae is balling out? One could argue, how is that possible when Trae is racking up assists at a high clip?  Well His usage is up this season, and sometimes it seems like his teammates are just checking out waiting on him to do his thing...And that leads to being late getting back on defense......Maybe we should start running more plays through our wings........That's how we got Bogi going last season...And that's when Kevin/Cam are at their best... Last night all 5 players on the court seemed engaged on both ends...That is why Travis needs to call another meeting with all coaches and players to get to the Root Cause.....We've witnessed that it's Not that they can't play defense... it's more like they weren't playing defense..  WHY??????

Being in a leadership position before I retired, I can tell you, if your best employee(player) doesn't care about doing something(defense), its contagious..

Why care if your leader(best player) doesnt care? I've said that a million times on here before...

Good leadership gets the best out of everyone...

Trae is an offensive juggernaut, but he needs to get way more scrappy out there on defense.......

And I think his teammates will follow his lead...

Go Hawks!!

Edited January 6, 2022 by terrell

[NBASupes]

Trae tends to be extremely big man heavy usage wise over his career. It's the reason I keep saying, Atlanta needs to look into improving the front court more than the backcourt. The issue is, the backcourt can't be 3&D, they still gotta be capable and able to score on all three levels. He's a tough player to fit players around for winning ball. 

 

With the exception to Magic, all of these PGs systems have flaws even from the elites. 

Nash system run enough offense. A lot of 3s, easy points, and layups. Not enough of a system when teams take away things. 

CP3 is a puppet master, stars hate playing that system. Booker and Ayton might be the first teammates who might be legit all stars who didn't become tired of CP3 puppet mastering. 

Trae is big man heavy and only wants to give it to the wings if they have to going on, otherwise, he will move on to what he knows works. 

Stockton system is extremely PnR heavily. It always takes a tumble when teams have time to prep for it. 

A lot of players hate Bron ball and Luka ball too. 

Jokic ball is the most kind as it's a hybrid of Bird ball and Divac ball but in the playoffs, you can shut it down if you lack the weapons like Jokic did last year without Murray. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by NBASupes

[marco102]

No. Even if Trae tried his heart out that wouldn't matter when the other guys aren't connected and communicating on the defensive end. They know Trae isn’t good on that end like we know some of them aren't the greatest on the offense and Trae covers for them. 

The problem to me is they haven't had a cohesive unit of guys to consistently work on the defensive communication as late. The last two practices they have and you could see them communicating on the court. Also last night we were playing Sac coming off a back to back. 

Trae needs to improve his effort on that end,  for sure, but we were fine with him on the floor defensively with the second half of last year.

There needs to be no changes to the offensive hierarchy. If guys don't want to defend, Travis will go find some that will.

@terrell

Edited January 6, 2022 by marco102

[909]

I agree with this observation, the pieces are their to have a better defense.why when Young misses a game  the team picks up their defense? When your best player isn’t going hard on both sides of the ball it rubs off on others. With Capela,Hunter,Reddish,Collins,Cabarrot,Okongwa,the Hawks have plenty of defenders.This is Trae Young’s team.I’m not like Schlenk in lowering expectations. No major trades necessary.

[swanlee]

I think a few things are going on, it took this team a little bit of the start of the season to gel, they almost did but were up and down a bit, then the covid issues happened and we are pretty much a scab team until everyone comes back.

I'd like to hope we keep some of the good 10 day guys and then solidify our team down the stretch

So I honestly just thing we have had some bad luck this year at bad times that prevented the team from really getting into a groove.

 

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Trae is big man heavy and only wants to give it to the wings if they have to going on, otherwise, he will move on to what he knows works. 

This.   Trae has shown he doesn't have to go for 30 every game.  In fact, early in the season there were a lot of games where he didn't really do a lot of scoring until late.   

But you see it since all the wings have been out.   When the wings aren't doing crap he knows the team needs points and puts them on his back.   I"m glad he does otherwise some of these 'bad' losses would have been absolute blow outs. 

I feel like Trae's energy on D has been pretty good but he's carrying a heavy load.    This is why Bogi is so important to this team.   When he's in a groove he's a reliable offensive weapon. 

[RedDawg#8]

38 minutes ago, swanlee said:

I think a few things are going on, it took this team a little bit of the start of the season to gel, they almost did but were up and down a bit, then the covid issues happened and we are pretty much a scab team until everyone comes back.

I'd like to hope we keep some of the good 10 day guys and then solidify our team down the stretch

So I honestly just thing we have had some bad luck this year at bad times that prevented the team from really getting into a groove.

 

This is the part that bothers me. This offseason we had the least amount of roster turnover we have ever seen in the Schlenk era. JC said in camp it was the first time he walked in the locker room and knew almost all of the guys.

We brought back the rotation that carried is to the ECF. We brought back locker room voices like Hill and Lou that were instrumental in teaching the young guys winning habits and mentality.

This was the season that we were destined to come out of the gates fast for the first time in the Schlenk era because there was already good chemistry.

The adjustments were supposed to be minimal this season. We had Dre and Cam both healthy that we needed to work in to the existing rotation. We had OO out, we had Clint playing through rehab, and we had Wright to figure out what his place was.

We still had a ton continuity in the lineup that it should not have been an issue for us to play well.

We came in sleepwalking, thinking things were easy and we would flip a switch when we needed to. We did it for a 6 game win streak. Then decided we were back, and then started collapsing in those home games due to poor defensive effort. Then Covid.

I think this team thought they would snap out of it but were blindsided by the Covid outbreak which set us back even more.

When we got 6 guys back and still lost to an undermanned Portland team, I think that put our back against the wall. Schlenk calling them out opened their eyes even more.  

There was finally a sense of urgency last night. It should not have taken 36 games to find it, but it's here, and I hope stays for longer than 6 games this time.

[marco102]

8 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

This is the part that bothers me. This offseason we had the least amount of roster turnover we have ever seen in the Schlenk era. JC said in camp it was the first time he walked in the locker room and knew almost all of the guys.

We brought back the rotation that carried is to the ECF. We brought back locker room voices like Hill and Lou that were instrumental in teaching the young guys winning habits and mentality.

This was the season that we were destined to come out of the gates fast for the first time in the Schlenk era because there was already good chemistry.

The adjustments were supposed to be minimal this season. We had Dre and Cam both healthy that we needed to work in to the existing rotation. We had OO out, we had Clint playing through rehab, and we had Wright to figure out what his place was.

We still had a ton continuity in the lineup that it should not have been an issue for us to play well.

We came in sleepwalking, thinking things were easy and we would flip a switch when we needed to. We did it for a 6 game win streak. Then decided we were back, and then started collapsing in those home games due to poor defensive effort. Then Covid.

I think this team thought they would snap out of it but were blindsided by the Covid outbreak which set us back even more.

When we got 6 guys back and still lost to an undermanned Portland team, I think that put our back against the wall. Schlenk calling them out opened their eyes even more.  

There was finally a sense of urgency last night. It should not have taken 36 games to find it, but it's here, and I hope stays for longer than 6 games this time.

We brought most of the team back, but Capela, Bogi, Huerter, Gallo and Hunter were all rehabbing and not doing the regular off season stuff with the team.  That maybe why there are chemistry issues to start and then covid hit.

Edited January 6, 2022 by marco102

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

We brought most of the team back, but Capela, Bogi, Huerter, Gallo and Hunter were all rehabbing and not doing the regular off season stuff with the team.  That maybe why their are chemistry issues to start and then covid hit.

Yes exactly.   And i said in another thread we were 12-10 on december 1 with by far the hardest schedule in the league which included a 6 game stretch where we played

road/home b2b against Nets/Utah

4 game west coast trip against PHX, GS, Jazz , Nuggets.

We were 4-9 then rattled off a 7 game win streak

After that is when we quit having a big chunk of our team for one reason or another. 

Our play was inconsistent but we were still solid record wise.   We went down hill when we lost Bogi, Cam and Hunter and then covid. 

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

If guys don't want to defend, Travis will go find some that will.

THIS.  

 

Trae is such a lightning rod that people are all too eager to lay every team fault at his feet.  He's the leader of the team, I get that.  But he picks up the slack offensively when others are limited or having off nights.  But heaven forbid if any of these other guys have to pick up the defensive slack for Trae.  

Seen fans on other boards already saying the other guys are just not giving effort because Trae doesn't.  If that's true (I'm not sure it is) then these guys need a new city to play in.  

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, terrell said:

I'm still trying to figure out the real reason for the consistent lack of defense prior to last night's game...Does anyone on the Squawk think that maybe some guys don't feel fully utilized/included when Trae is balling out? One could argue, how is that possible when Trae is racking up assists at a high clip?  Well His usage is up this season, and sometimes it seems like his teammates are just checking out waiting on him to do his thing...And that leads to being late getting back on defense......Maybe we should start running more plays through our wings........That's how we got Bogi going last season...And that's when Kevin/Cam are at their best... Last night all 5 players on the court seemed engaged on both ends...That is why Travis needs to call another meeting with all coaches and players to get to the Root Cause.....We've witnessed that it's Not that they can't play defense... it's more like they weren't playing defense..  WHY??????

Being in a leadership position before I retired, I can tell you, if your best employee(player) doesn't care about doing something(defense), its contagious..

Why care if your leader(best player) doesnt care? I've said that a million times on here before...

Good leadership gets the best out of everyone...

Trae is an offensive juggernaut, but he needs to get way more scrappy out there on defense.......

And I think his teammates will follow his lead...

Go Hawks!!

I go back and forth on this one.  I do think there is some merit to guys getting touches (even if not shots) on offense and that leads to them being more engaged on defense.  There's absolutely a psychological element here and I think if you watch Golden State play you see it in full force.  Dray gets all the credit on defense but that team will have 50 buckets in a game with like 40 team assists.  Everyone is touching the rock and everyone is engaged on both ends of the floor.  Steph has been terrible for like a month but they keep winning because of their defense.

For the Hawks though, it's clear we don't have the same buy-in we saw last season.  I can only speculate as to why that is (secured contracts, apathy because of being on the trading block, apathy because our roster is depleted, fatigue, etc.) but I hope we can fix it.  I would love to see more communication on the floor -- basketball and just general support.  I see guys dapping after a bucket but I want to see some celebrations for good defense, defensive stops, etc.  I don't think that type of leadership can come from Trae, it's not who he is.  I personally think JC is that guy but he's been out recently.

[JayBirdHawk]

48 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

This is the part that bothers me. This offseason we had the least amount of roster turnover we have ever seen in the Schlenk era. JC said in camp it was the first time he walked in the locker room and knew almost all of the guys.

We brought back the rotation that carried is to the ECF. We brought back locker room voices like Hill and Lou that were instrumental in teaching the young guys winning habits and mentality.

This was the season that we were destined to come out of the gates fast for the first time in the Schlenk era because there was already good chemistry.

The adjustments were supposed to be minimal this season. We had Dre and Cam both healthy that we needed to work in to the existing rotation. We had OO out, we had Clint playing through rehab, and we had Wright to figure out what his place was.

We still had a ton continuity in the lineup that it should not have been an issue for us to play well.

We came in sleepwalking, thinking things were easy and we would flip a switch when we needed to. We did it for a 6 game win streak. Then decided we were back, and then started collapsing in those home games due to poor defensive effort. Then Covid.

I think this team thought they would snap out of it but were blindsided by the Covid outbreak which set us back even more.

When we got 6 guys back and still lost to an undermanned Portland team, I think that put our back against the wall. Schlenk calling them out opened their eyes even more.  

There was finally a sense of urgency last night. It should not have taken 36 games to find it, but it's here, and I hope stays for longer than 6 games this time.

We had the same team yes....but:

OO was out and the others:

Hunter was back after offseason surgery on the knee for the 2nd time

Huerter had offseason ankle surgery

Bogi had offseason knee procedure

Clint had offseason Achilles procedure

Gallo had a shoulder issue

Lou had a hip issue

All these players were limited in training camp and during the preseason games - so that time together was missed to properly gel.  Continuity yes but no chemistry to start the season - the biggest factor of all was the new Coaching staff under Nate and the changes to the offense and defense schemes.

[Diesel]

Here's my take... not a popular one but I believe it's the truth...

 

I think that having Trae brings requirements.   Trae is not a great defender.   We know that most teams gameplan Trae by trying to get a bigger player on Trae with a swtich.  Not to mention that most of the time, if Trae's natural man is a good scorer, he immediately switches to a lesser player when defense converts to offense for the other team.  So here's what happens:

1.  Trae caught in the switch...

We're on offense, we miss.  Trae has to find "his man"... usually not the man guarding him.  So if we're playing the Lakers (for instance) and Trae is guarded by Westbrook... when they get the rebound off of our miss, Trae has to find Malik Monk... because if he stays with Westbrook, he will prolly get posted up.   However, Monk is prolly not going inside.   This will work against the Lakers because they are more apt to walk it up. 

When we played Philly Last year, Trae could just stick to Ben Simmons because Doc Rivers decided to post Ben Simmons on the three point line to prevent the foul. 

2.  They try to switch on Trae...

Just like we do, there are a lot of teams that will give a PNR set to see what we will do.  If Trae is on the court, then they will likely try to Trade out Trae for who they want.   So again, we're playing the Lakers (for instance).  Trae has made it to Malik Monk.  He's guarding Monk on the three point line.   Lebron has the Ball and he gets Monk to set the pick on Capella or JC.  Monk sets the back pick.  Normally, it's Trae's Job to pick up Bron to stop him from going to the basket.   But we're not going to do that... We're going to pull Cap up and give JC time to fight over the pick and Trae is going to stay with Monk.  Because it's a pick and roll, Lebron can either attack CLint and pass off to whoever he was supposed to be guarding or Roll off to the side and shoot a midrange shot... or Roll at Clint and toss it back to Monk if Trae runs out a Clint's man (Lala's husband). 

When Trae is not in the game, the PNR is picked up like regular and when Bron asks for the PICK, Wright picks up Lebron and JC takes Monk. 

The issue is our defense is more complicated because of Trae.   This complication is something that our Core Guys have learned.  That's why we talk about consistency.  But when you trade out those players for other players... that don't know the Trae rules on defense, they do as they have been trained and maybe leave a guy wide open..  Or they fail to cover for Clint.

What you saw last night is that Clint didn't have to rotate out of position and he was able to come up with a few monstrous blocks. 

When I talk about our failings on defense, I call it lack of effort.   Not that we don't try.. the effort is overcoming our previous programming and that leaves holes in our defense. 

[JayBirdHawk]

39 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Seen fans on other boards already saying the other guys are just not giving effort because Trae doesn't.  If that's true (I'm not sure it is) then these guys need a new city to play in.

If that's the case they should ask themselves one main question - can I do what he does on the other side of the ball with the same level of consistency.  Then they should ask themselves - what am I best at, then do that.

...and this is not saying that Trae's effort does not need to be better on defense CONSISTENTLY (ironically just like those wings need some consistency on offense and defense), he does.

[RedDawg#8]

This isn't grade school. These guys are professionals. If I allow another man to get me in my feelings to where I am not playing up to my standards, who does that ultimately hurt in the end? Trae has a Max deal. Am I going to sabotage my own value as a player because Im sad about not feeling included? Nope. But that's me.

Truthfully, I can see certain guys who believe they are a great player deep down but aren't getting the chance to shine being frustrated, but that's still not an excuse.

And that's why we may need to follow suit with most teams led by a ball dominant star and surround them with guys who are hungry and have accepted their role in the league. Our young talent has potential, and THEY know it too. They want that max deal one day too. But these 10 day guys came up and said I'm happy to be here and will do whatever it takes to stay here and we saw amazing effort out of these dudes. They were willing to do the dirty work and not receive any credit.

Im not saying that our guys can't coexist together. But they will have to accept roles and a hierarchy first.

Middleton HATED Giannis when he joined the Bucks. They had a rivalry between themselves because Middleton saw Giannis as competition and a threat to his minutes. Eventually he realized that it was Giannis' team and he had to be option 2. That's when they started winning. 

The coaches and organization have to clean up this picture and define roles and stop letting these guys try to define it for themselves. Trae, JC, Clint are clearly defined if you ask me.

Everyone else has question marks that need to be worked out internally so that players can just accept it, focus and play hard.

[Diesel]

I don't think that there are attitudes about playing with Trae.  You can tell when they play that everybody loves playing with each other.   It's almost as bad as GS out there.   Everybody also looks up to Trae as a leader. 

I think the problem is more technical than emotional. 

Technical problems in the lack of changing personnel requires more effort to overcome. 

 

[terrell]

3 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

This is the part that bothers me. This offseason we had the least amount of roster turnover we have ever seen in the Schlenk era. JC said in camp it was the first time he walked in the locker room and knew almost all of the guys.

We brought back the rotation that carried is to the ECF. We brought back locker room voices like Hill and Lou that were instrumental in teaching the young guys winning habits and mentality.

This was the season that we were destined to come out of the gates fast for the first time in the Schlenk era because there was already good chemistry.

The adjustments were supposed to be minimal this season. We had Dre and Cam both healthy that we needed to work in to the existing rotation. We had OO out, we had Clint playing through rehab, and we had Wright to figure out what his place was.

We still had a ton continuity in the lineup that it should not have been an issue for us to play well.

We came in sleepwalking, thinking things were easy and we would flip a switch when we needed to. We did it for a 6 game win streak. Then decided we were back, and then started collapsing in those home games due to poor defensive effort. Then Covid.

I think this team thought they would snap out of it but were blindsided by the Covid outbreak which set us back even more.

When we got 6 guys back and still lost to an undermanned Portland team, I think that put our back against the wall. Schlenk calling them out opened their eyes even more.  
 

"There was finally a sense of urgency last night. It should not have taken 36 games to find it, but it's here, and I hope stays for longer than 6 games this time"

This............................

 

[terrell]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I go back and forth on this one.  I do think there is some merit to guys getting touches (even if not shots) on offense and that leads to them being more engaged on defense.  There's absolutely a psychological element here and I think if you watch Golden State play you see it in full force.  Dray gets all the credit on defense but that team will have 50 buckets in a game with like 40 team assists.  Everyone is touching the rock and everyone is engaged on both ends of the floor.  Steph has been terrible for like a month but they keep winning because of their defense.

For the Hawks though, it's clear we don't have the same buy-in we saw last season.  I can only speculate as to why that is (secured contracts, apathy because of being on the trading block, apathy because our roster is depleted, fatigue, etc.) but I hope we can fix it.  I would love to see more communication on the floor -- basketball and just general support.  I see guys dapping after a bucket but I want to see some celebrations for good defense, defensive stops, etc.  I don't think that type of leadership can come from Trae, it's not who he is.  I personally think JC is that guy but he's been out recently.

Agreed.. Good comment.. Maybe Collins is that guy.. Not sure he is but hopefully...Lets see if we keep up the defensive intensity in LA.... We better if we want to win more games...

Edited January 6, 2022 by terrell

[MarylandHawk]

20 hours ago, terrell said:

I'm still trying to figure out the real reason for the consistent lack of defense prior to last night's game...Does anyone on the Squawk think that maybe some guys don't feel fully utilized/included when Trae is balling out? One could argue, how is that possible when Trae is racking up assists at a high clip?  Well His usage is up this season, and sometimes it seems like his teammates are just checking out waiting on him to do his thing...And that leads to being late getting back on defense......Maybe we should start running more plays through our wings........That's how we got Bogi going last season...And that's when Kevin/Cam are at their best... Last night all 5 players on the court seemed engaged on both ends...That is why Travis needs to call another meeting with all coaches and players to get to the Root Cause.....We've witnessed that it's Not that they can't play defense... it's more like they weren't playing defense..  WHY??????

Being in a leadership position before I retired, I can tell you, if your best employee(player) doesn't care about doing something(defense), its contagious..

Why care if your leader(best player) doesnt care? I've said that a million times on here before...

Good leadership gets the best out of everyone...

Trae is an offensive juggernaut, but he needs to get way more scrappy out there on defense.......

And I think his teammates will follow his lead...

Go Hawks!!

I think you are on to something but not because Trae isn’t scrappy or takes defense seriously. I think the ball movement piece is more realistic as a reason why the team may get stagnant on defense. The NBA had proved time and time again that when players feel involved in the offense and there is good ball movement, the defense tends to follow. What our team needs to realize is that Trae is a once in a lifetime type player who can get everyone involved in the game every time down court if they just hustle to get open and keep playing through the possession on offense. Things like cutting at the last minute even though Trae is driving, wings going after offensive rebounds on long threes, not leaving John, Gallo and Clint hanging when they feed the post by standing around watching them even when they are double teamed. If they do those things, they will notice that Trae will not miss them no matter where they are on the court and he will feed them the ball for an open shot. He sees everything and will make the pass if you hustle to get open. This should translate to consistent high/multiple effort defense on every possession. 

[MarylandHawk]

Just now, MarylandHawk said:

I think you are on to something but not because Trae isn’t scrappy or takes defense seriously. I think the ball movement piece is more realistic as a reason why the team may get stagnant on defense. The NBA had proved time and time again that when players feel involved in the offense and there is good ball movement, the defense tends to follow. What our team needs to realize is that Trae is a once in a lifetime type player who can get everyone involved in the game every time down court if they just hustle to get open and keep playing through the possession on offense. Things like cutting at the last minute even though Trae is driving, wings going after offensive rebounds on long threes, not leaving John, Gallo and Clint hanging when they feed the post by standing around watching them even when they are double teamed. If they do those things, they will notice that Trae will not miss them no matter where they are on the court and he will feed them the ball for an open shot. He sees everything and will make the pass if you hustle to get open. This should translate to consistent high/multiple effort defense on every possession. 

Also, I think this team came into the season as if they had arrived and others would respect them off of what they did last year. The new coaches probably were not pushing too hard early on because they just wanted fit in and not mess anything up. But other teams were licking their chops to get a piece of us and came ready to play offensively and defensively against us the whole game.  We just look shocked out there at how every team’s third and forth guy is locked in and making shots and disrupting our offensive flow. It is like the Hawks are thinking “why are they trying so hard. Don’t they know who we are”.