This team is ass-backwards

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, JTB said:

@NBASupes you can’t use data to backup your theory that the team is a good defensive unit without Trae then turn around and not use data but use the “eye test” and say the offense is truly terrible without Trae even though the data says we are elite.

I’ve watched the same games as you and I’m not going to use data at all…the eye test says we can’t play defense with or without Trae.

offensively yes the eyes test says Trae is the reason we are ranked high offensively so in a way it matches the data output …that part I can agree with.

 

we need to call it what it is. This is a different coaching staff working with players they don’t know. The coaching staff has not put these players in the best position to perform at the level they performed last season and that’s on both ends. This is the first problem that need to be ACCEPTED and stop being overlooked. McMillan staff is ass and McMillan has shown that he was only good using LPs scheme….lets all stop ignoring that truth! Unfortunately we may be stuck with McMillan and his terrible staff. Schlenk has a bigger issue there then the player personnel. 

LP and Schlenk saw eye to eye and likely his staff as well but McMillan staff doesn’t see the same thing. Reddish potential is clearly not seen ….they were watching this team go deep in the playoffs while sitting on their couch like the majority of us. This team is playing under a different scheme offensively and defensively.

Same.

The data is there when Trae doesn't play. When Trae plays, of course the data isn't there because they have to account for him. I watch this too much. When I was calling Josh Smith out for his lack of offensive decision making skills on the ball as well as thinking he's more skilled than he is causing his offensive inconsistency, I got nothing but negative feedback (He's just young, look at this game, etc). Years later, you couldn't find a single Hawk fan that didn't share that opinion of Josh Smith. Sometimes fans don't want to accept the truth till it's near the end of his time. 

The offense falls off a cliff whenever Trae is off the court and whenever we play without Trae, our offense barely looks NBA level. That's actually proven by data. I can post stats all day but what's the point, someone will make excuses. Well, just don't have a PG when Trae's not in instead of just admitting, offensively, this team is trash. Trae is so freaking good, he's like a LeBron. By himself, he turns your offense into the shit. Trae is Basketball's Maradona. 

Nate sees Cam's potential. Not sure everyone his staff does and wasn't sure before yesterday, I am even stronger in that opinion now. They play the same style as Indiana. We kinda played like it last year but we had a lot of LP system details. We stopped spanming some of LP's favorite plays this year but truth is. We still run a lot of LP's plays. Just blended some of Nate's. This system is less about generating corner 3s and more about all around offense. We use the mid range more than anyone with Chicago and we are good at it. We are elite at 3% percentage but we don't take a lot compared to LP where we spammed threes and LP valued that. Trae added some elements as well and he's developed under Nate to become the best offensive weapon in the NBA. 

The regression of others isn't really a regression. This is what Bogi been every year other than the 2nd half of last year. Kev made a jump last year in the 2nd half and really hasn't fallen outside of the early games this year where him and Cam came off the bench. 

Cam has improved production wise this year on the offensive end. 

Regardless of what some think on here, I still believe energy bigs plus Jokic benefitted from the late COVID season last year and their production maybe disingenuous. Like all of these bigs had a year that nearly doubled in production from their norm. I find that odd. Even we are seeing teams handle these players with ease this year in contrast to last year.  

The defense isn't much different. It's pretty much the same. They gave up way too many open 3s last year, especially the post Reddish/Hunter pairings. The ball rolled right for us. It's like the Grizzlies in the last 26 games. I don't believe this is a testament to how good we were. Last year, the playoffs were real. We see a lot of the issues we had in the playoffs, in the RS with the exception of chemistry was just clicking, it hasn't clicked all year for us. That's probably the biggest difference. When LP got fired, chemistry came instantly. Before that, we had chemistry issues as well. Remember the JC doesn't like playing with Trae rumors which were farce. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

24 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Someone on the Zack Lowe podcast said this and it stuck with me. Remember the Iverson 76er's? Remember them? Ok, now that you do remember that his teams didn't really do anything until they made that trade with US to get Deke. The Sixers surrounded Iverson with four good to great defensive starters. Iverson was a putrid defender and lacked the body size/height to ever really be a decent defender. 

This is the position we are in. Trae will never be a good defender. I've said for years the most we can hope for is AVERAGE. And now that Trae is a big star now I'm worried he's not going to even get to average. 

So we can't keep hoping for a breakthrough on his part. Surround him with all defense around him. Let it be the Trae show on offense and he can damn sure score and pass with the best of them. But the rest of the team HAS TO be good to great on defense. Not even average. Good to great. So guys like Bogi and Kevin need to be replaced with Cam and Hunter (when healthy) in the starting line up.

Iverson won defensive player of the year in the Big East. He was miles better than Trae on that end. Iverson is an isolation engine. Because he doesn't make others better and he struggled to share the offensive load with others, they had to commit to an all defense squad and landing the best defensive player in the NBA at that time which was Deke. They tried to get so many guys to play with A.I. too. Even in his trade to Denver, Denver got worse because of the deal. 

Trae doesn't have that issue. His offensive impact is just a lot more massive than even A.I. this year. He doesn't have issues sharing, especially with bigs throughout his career. See the Parker/Jones era with Trae. 

Also was miles better defensively. He had a plus +5 wingspan. He played the passing lanes at an elite level. His off ball defense was million times better than Trae. He died on screens like Trae did, just not to the extreme as Trae. 1v1 and POA, he wasn't much of a defender as the effort wasn't there for it on most nights. What I am saying is, you can do that with A.I. and it works. You can't with Trae. Doesn't work for him on offense and it doesn't work on defense. I seen him play with Iwundu. Probably one of the best wing defenders we had since Augmon eye test wise and he was covering for Trae left and right. His defense got killed for us even though he was impressive eye test wise. 

Trae been average on defense and maybe better in the playoffs. His defense was on the same level with Bogi in the playoffs but he doesn't play defense in the regular season. His commitment just isn't there on that end. He puts his teammates in compromising positions possession after possession. 

I honestly don't believe putting nothing but defense is the answer unless they have very good offense as well. Ability to score all three levels. Can make plays on for themselves and others on the ball. Can score in the post and stretch the floor as a big. We played with a lot of defensive players with the G-leagers and our offense looked poorus and we still had a bad defense. 

I don't see what worked for Billy King and Philadelphia as the best option for us. 

[Bonkers]

Did somebody in here try to compare Iverson's defense to Trae's sorry ass doo doo defense?!?!?! 

Iverson had 4 seasons where his Defensive Win Shares were in the Top 20

What an absolute joke to even bring up Iverson lmaoo. You Trae defenders are hilarious

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Bonkers

[terrell]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Someone on the Zack Lowe podcast said this and it stuck with me. Remember the Iverson 76er's? Remember them? Ok, now that you do remember that his teams didn't really do anything until they made that trade with US to get Deke. The Sixers surrounded Iverson with four good to great defensive starters. Iverson was a putrid defender and lacked the body size/height to ever really be a decent defender. 

This is the position we are in. Trae will never be a good defender. I've said for years the most we can hope for is AVERAGE. And now that Trae is a big star now I'm worried he's not going to even get to average. 

So we can't keep hoping for a breakthrough on his part. Surround him with all defense around him. Let it be the Trae show on offense and he can damn sure score and pass with the best of them. But the rest of the team HAS TO be good to great on defense. Not even average. Good to great. So guys like Bogi and Kevin need to be replaced with Cam and Hunter (when healthy) in the starting line up.

Bogi and Kev arent the only ones that should be replaced, but I'll save that for another day..

Edited January 9, 2022 by terrell

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'll say what I said to start the season...one of them needs to step forward as 'the guy' next to Trae. They're all barely averaging double digit points per game. 

I'd like to see them get more focused on the boards, grab a rebound and go...we aren't using our speed and athleticism on the wing to our advantage.

 

That won't happen until one or two of them are out of the picture.  I'm fully convinced now that someone from our wing group has to go, so that the other wings can maximize their talent.

[benhillboy]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

Here you go...He just doesnt give a fk about defense, so he needs to stop talking like he does.. smh

And then has the nerve to complain to the referee?  See 18 sec mark....Just sad..

His attention span off the ball is getting even worse.  Damn.

Averaging 29 and 10 with a -1 net rating.  You can’t even make that sh*t up.
You get such diminishing returns with building an offense around a player his size and defensive profile with a limited shot chart and finishing ability who never screens or cuts.  The other 4 players’ net rating in his class of offensive usage and production are  KD + 10, LeBron +12, Jokic + 18, and Steph +9.  Let alone two way team leaders like Giannis (+17) and Jimmy (+20). 
 

Indy has a different profile from the Hawks (instead of a high ranked offense and low ranked defense they’re mediocre in both areas) yet the point differentials are virtually identical (-.2, -.3). Trae basically produces as much as Brogdon and McConnell combined and they still surpass his net rating individually by 4 and 7 points, respectively.  

I wished/ expected Nate to have benched him at least once by now instead of dry snitching on his effort every presser knowing damn well he’s the common denominator in the team allowing 130+.

Edited January 9, 2022 by benhillboy

[terrell]

14 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

That won't happen until one or two of them are out of the picture.  I'm fully convinced now that someone from our wing group has to go, so that the other wings can maximize their talent.

The Hawks need more switchable defenders. Hunter returning will help, but Bogi is just not capable.

 And does putting Trae in the corner really help? He has no strength and no chance of contesting corner 3's.

[terrell]

56 minutes ago, Bonkers said:

Did somebody in here try to compare Iverson's defense to Trae's sorry ass doo doo defense?!?!?! 

Iverson had 4 seasons where his Defensive Win Shares were in the Top 20

What an absolute joke to even bring up Iverson lmaoo. You Trae defenders are hilarious

 

 

This is why I dont see Nate and Trae lasting too long..And might be the reason he was hesitant to take the job.... Nate is old school and believes in playing hard on defense and low turnovers..I cant imagine him watching game tape and not having a stroke...lol.

Hopefully Trae picks up his defensive intensity like the team did in Sactown tomorrow.....We shall see...

Edited January 9, 2022 by terrell

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, Bonkers said:

Did somebody in here try to compare Iverson's defense to Trae's sorry ass doo doo defense?!?!?! 

Iverson had 4 seasons where his Defensive Win Shares were in the Top 20

What an absolute joke to even bring up Iverson lmaoo. You Trae defenders are hilarious

 

 

This just shows had bad advanced metrics can be. I watched Iverson his entire career. He was a chucker on offense that did nothing to elevate his team's offense and on defense he was a no show. The only he did well was jump into a passing lane to get some steals. And once the team adjusted he was a free bucket or foul. Those metrics were when he had a great defensive team around him to protect him. Nothing he did was on that level.

[NBASupes]

48 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

That won't happen until one or two of them are out of the picture.  I'm fully convinced now that someone from our wing group has to go, so that the other wings can maximize their talent.

When that happens, you will see that player likely flourish unless it's Bogi. He's pretty much going to be the same no matter what. 

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, Sothron said:

This just shows had bad advanced metrics can be. I watched Iverson his entire career. He was a chucker on offense that did nothing to elevate his team's offense and on defense he was a no show. The only he did well was jump into a passing lane to get some steals. And once the team adjusted he was a free bucket or foul. Those metrics were when he had a great defensive team around him to protect him. Nothing he did was on that level.

To marginalize him to chucker status especially in his prime is disingenuous. Especially as a Hawk fan who had the likes of Jordan Crawford, Kent Bazemore, J.R. Rider, Glenn Robinson, and Flip Murray. A.I. was much better on both ends than you are giving him a lack of credit for. 

[NBASupes]

37 minutes ago, terrell said:

This is why I dont see Nate and Trae lasting too long..And might be the reason he was hesitant to take the job.... Nate is old school and believes in playing hard on defense and low turnovers..I cant imagine him watching game tape and not having a stroke...lol.

Hopefully Trae picks up his defensive intensity like the team did in Sactown tomorrow.....We shall see...

No coach works with Trae Young. His defense shatters your defensive integrity. Most players like him never sniff the NBA but he's so insanely good on offense, you almost just write it off as cost of having an once in a generation offensive engine. He makes old ass good coaches like Nate look good. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by NBASupes

[terrell]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No coach works with Trae Young. His defense shatters your defensive integrity. Most players like him never sniff the NBA but he's so insanely good on offense, you almost just write it off as cost of having an once in a generation offensive engine. He makes old ass good coaches like Nate look good. 

Mike D'Antoni? lol

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, terrell said:

Mike D'Antoni? lol

That would end up being the worst defensive partnership in NBA history. 

[terrell]

Just now, NBASupes said:

That would end up being the worst defensive partnership in NBA history. 

Well at least he wouldnt care about defensive integrity.. lol

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, terrell said:

Well at least he wouldnt care about defensive integrity.. lol

Those defensive gameplans Trae complains about would be WOAT. This would be Denver Westhead early 90s times 3X. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by NBASupes

[terrell]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Those defensive gameplans Trae complains about would be WOAT. This would be Denver late 80s, early 90s times 3X. 

We're never going to get where we want to be unless we find a new star player,  our current star player begins to take pride, ANY pride, on D, or unless TS completes the near impossible task of surrounding Trae with that most remarkable group of young men who will 'run through a wall' for the sake of maintaining defensive intensity despite Trae loafing about (and also launching some 35 footers just after they've hoofed it down the court so they can race back again to stop a transition bucket).

Edited January 9, 2022 by terrell

[JTB]

It’s interesting that everywhere I read now in regards to the hawks and Celtics wings…that same comment is made about the players basically being the same style player and that’s why it’s not working .

For the hawks as many of you know that comment is made towards  cam and hunter as well as Bogi and Huerter.

not that the Celtics matter on our board but they are getting very similar comments about brown and Tatum duo.

it’s odd to me honestly…I can admit when Schlenk put these wings together I thought it was brilliant at first!….my goodness, when reality sets in it hurts badly! But  I can’t imagine how Celtic fans feel with two wings who are proven all stars and it’s just not working with them two. OUCH!

I guess what’s odd to me is  ….I once thought  had hunter and reddish made big strides by this point in there careers I we’d our own version of Brown and Tatum type all star wing unit but geeezzz those two are all star level wings that just don’t work according to all the internet gms lol….and the Celtics aren’t proving them wrong…. they are in the same boat as the hawks but with an all star wing pairing.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

Someone on the Zack Lowe podcast said this and it stuck with me. Remember the Iverson 76er's? Remember them? Ok, now that you do remember that his teams didn't   really do anything until they made that trade with US to get Deke. The Sixers surrounded Iverson with four good to great defensive starters. Iverson was a putrid defender and lacked the body size/height to ever really be a decent defender. 

This is the position we are in. Trae will never be a good defender. I've said for years the most we can hope for is AVERAGE. And now that Trae is a big star now I'm worried he's not going to even get to average. 

So we can't keep hoping for a breakthrough on his part. Surround him with all defense around him. Let it be the Trae show on offense and he can damn sure score and pass with the best of them. But the rest of the team HAS TO be good to great on defense. Not even average. Good to great. So guys like Bogi and Kevin need to be replaced with Cam and Hunter (when healthy) in the starting line up.

 

But the gag is . . . Cam and Dre aren't as great as we make them out to be on defense.  Specifically Cam, because he gets lost with his off the ball defense as well.  And we all know that Bogi and Kevin aren't defenders either, because they're the ones most under attack when high scoring wings have the ball in their hands.

As @JayBirdHawk points out, the entire team is bad defensively. You can't put that all on Trae.  It's everybody.  And contrary to popular belief, they're not bad because everyone is trying to compensate for Trae.  They're bad because they can't stop anybody either.

 

 

 

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

But the gag is . . . Cam and Dre aren't as great as we make them out to be on defense.  Specifically Cam, because he gets lost with his off the ball defense as well.  And we all know that Bogi and Kevin aren't defenders either, because they're the ones most under attack when high scoring wings have the ball in their hands.

As @JayBirdHawk points out, the entire team is bad defensively. You can't put that all on Trae.  It's everybody.  And contrary to popular belief, they're not bad because everyone is trying to compensate for Trae.  They're bad because they can't stop anybody either.

 

 

 

Outside of trades our best options for offense/defense at SG and SF are Cam at SG and Hunter at SF. I have zero problems saying that. Bogi's defense when he came back last season after missing time was above average then took a dive when he was playing on one knee in the playoffs. This year he had the ankle injury then covid. I'm not going to blast him after his first game back but he has to get back to at least average on defense. Kevin has really been a let down this year on defense.