CAM REDDISH TO NY FOR KEVIN KNOX AND FIRST!?!

[REHawksFan]

19 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I'm tired of the Trae hate on this site. It is mostly a handful of people but it is a broken record. Let's ignore Trae being top 3 in scoring and assists because that doesn't help our agenda. Let's ignore all the injuries and games lost to covid because that doesn't help our agenda. Let's ignore Nate's really bad coaching this year because that doesn't help our agenda. GTFOH with that noise.

Yep.  Unfortunately, the longer the hawks struggle, the more of a platform it gives these folks.  

[Sothron]

22 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The delusion of Trae is on the level of Josh Smith going into year 4. He's a trash movement player. He only comes to the ball to get it. He can barely get his shot off when he plays off the ball and guys like you who suggest it remind me of Smoove needs to be used like Nique when he couldn't dribble and his hands are small.

Trae is a rare generational talent and as skilled as anyone who's ever touched a basketball but he's not Steph Curry. He plays Bron ball. He plays it harder than even Bron and Luka does. He completely dominate the rock and y'all blame everyone but Trae for that shit.

How can someone be trash at something they never get to do? The few times I can remember them moving Trae without the ball he was able to get a wide open shot off or attack the basket.  We have not had in Trae's career any good ball handler to go with him. How is that his fault?

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

This idea that Trae can only play with elite bigs I'm not buying.  You can fill up a post with 12 paragraphs, but that's not persuasive to me.  Bron played and won championships with ball dominant superstars.  We thrashed the Bucks with Trae ball in a couple games, and the Bucks went on to win the title.  

I'm supposed to get on board with saying Cam and Dre are the actual superstars being held back by Trae.  Naw.  

Did Bron make Wade better? Did he make Bosh better? Those teams won due to their defense. Even the Cleveland team with Kyrie and Love mainly won due to Bron. Bron is Bron. Trae is Trae. Let's not put the GOAT on the same level with his guards. 

Ya'll love not buying my shit till you buy my shit is all I gotta say. Josh Smith. Remember Josh Smith. Ya'll got way too much blind faith in Trae when he dont need any. He's a beast in his own right but he's not this magical unicorn. He has a game and he got it locked down.

[ShooterSays]

Y’all acting like we didn’t just make the ECF and come within one fluke sprained ankle of potentially winning it all…in the FIRST year we were actually trying to win it all with Trae.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

How can someone be trash at something they never get to do? The few times I can remember them moving Trae without the ball he was able to get a wide open shot off or attack the basket.  We have not had in Trae's career any good ball handler to go with him. How is that his fault?

LMAO! How can Capela be a trash 3 point shooter when he never does it?

[Sothron]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

LMAO! How can Capela be a trash 3 point shooter when he never does it?

Seriously? Let's compare a guy that can shoot the cover off the ball in more movement opportunities versus a center that can't even his free throws outside shooting? C'mon man.

[JeffS17]

9 minutes ago, Sothron said:

How can someone be trash at something they never get to do? The few times I can remember them moving Trae without the ball he was able to get a wide open shot off or attack the basket.  We have not had in Trae's career any good ball handler to go with him. How is that his fault?

It's not his fault, but we have a lot of revisionist history and confirmation bias on this board.

Trae ball got us into the ECF where we took 2 games off the Bucks.  The difference is the team actually believed we could win and played like dogs last year.  We were grinding out 15-20 point comebacks.  I don't know what happened from the playoffs to the regular season but we went from dogs to divas.

And before the haters come in to try to contextualize our run like any bum team could have made it as far as we did, let me stop you.  The Knicks were an overachieving regular season team but we firmly exposed them.  The 76ers were a very good team, so don't be blinded by the Simmons propaganda all over right now.  They have some weaknesses like any team but they were very good and we beat them.  The eventual champs lost 2 games to us.  I believe we could have taken the Suns to 7, win or lose.  So if that's what Trae ball does for us in a season riddled with injuries and lesser talent on the floor, how can anyone straight face argue that we need to blow it up or we are destined for being trash.

35 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Everyone knows all we generally do is spam 1-5 PnR and before Clint, we spammed 1-4 PnRs. All that shit generally gets downloaded unless you have someone who just can't be stopped. Trae goes nuts for the first 3 quarters spamming 1/5 PnRs and by the 4th quarter. They put a defensive guard on Trae, double and hedge him, get a big wing on Capela and force him to punish you. Capela can't capitalize. He gets benched. Gallo no defense ass causes a run for the other team as they usually hit 3s, they spam attacking Trae on defense and we blow the lead or we never get the lead and lose. The end

Your narratives on Trae change every time we play well or start losing, then reverse course again, then again.  He's the best offensive player of all time and then he's impossible to build a team around.  And no don't tell me both things are true simultaneously because you were just saying we're one piece away from being a contender.  Not even the biggest Trae stan (shoutout to @TheNorthCydeRises) in the world thinks he will ever play good defense, and most don't even believe he can be a great off-ball player, but it's obvious he has generational talent and any time you have offensive generational talent, you have a shot to build a contending team.  

[Sothron]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

It's not his fault, but we have a lot of revisionist history and confirmation bias on this board.

Trae ball got us into the ECF where we took 2 games off the Bucks.  The difference is the team actually believed we could win and played like dogs last year.  We were grinding out 15-20 point comebacks.  I don't know what happened from the playoffs to the regular season but we went from dogs to divas.

And before the haters come in to try to contextualize our run like any bum team could have made it as far as we did, let me stop you.  The Knicks were an overachieving regular season team but we firmly exposed them.  The 76ers were a very good team, so don't be blinded by the Simmons propaganda all over right now.  They have some weaknesses like any team but they were very good and we beat them.  The eventual champs lost 2 games to us.  I believe we could have taken the Suns to 7, win or lose.  So if that's what Trae ball does for us in a season riddled with injuries and lesser talent on the floor, how can anyone straight face argue that we need to blow it up or we are destined for being trash.

Your narratives on Trae change every time we play well or start losing, then reverse course again, then again.  He's the best offensive player of all time and then he's impossible to build a team around.  And no don't tell me both things are true simultaneously because you were just saying we're one piece away from being a contender.  Not even the biggest Trae stan (shoutout to @TheNorthCydeRises) in the world thinks he will ever play good defense, and most don't even believe he can be a great off-ball player, but it's obvious he has generational talent and any time you have offensive generational talent, you have a shot to build a contending team.  

Agree with all of this. Well said.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Sothron said:

Seriously? Let's compare a guy that can shoot the cover off the ball in more movement opportunities versus a center that can't even his free throws outside shooting? C'mon man.

He can't freaking move off the ball. He doesn't go full speed ever on offense unless he has the rock. He gets tired fast and its mainly noticeable when he's off the ball. When he's on it and tired, I personally think it leads to his mistakes but I am not 100% sure of that. 

 

You want him to be someone he's not so bad but he had it, you don't think any of his coaches including college, AAU, and HS would have tried it by now? It's not like Trae is inconsistent at this or shows flashes. He shows no movement BBIQ. He shows no stamina off the rock. He shows no drive or determination to even consider it regardless if he's playing with PGs, wings, etc. But he's just going to magically become Seth Curry. 

That's like me believing Capela, Drummond or Dwight Howard will become 3 point shooters. 

[JeffS17]

18 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Did Bron make Wade better? Did he make Bosh better?

Yes and yes lol... Wade had 4 of his most efficient season with Lebron.  Any time a guy is getting you more open looks, you're going to be more efficient which is how you win games.  And you should have more energy on the opposite end of the floor and be able to do more of the smaller things (boxing out, rebounding, setting screens, etc.).  And you should have more energy and focus for defense -- which is the crux of our issue right now, Trae is surrounded by players who don't want to play defense or cant play high level defense.

Part of our issue is team chemistry, locker room issues, and part of our problem is coaching.  Nate doesn't have control of the team and the locker room right now and there's no buy in to winning basketball.  I watched John continue to do the connected finger gesture for 30 seconds in a timeout last night imploring the team to be "connected" and "together" because we have clear locker room issues.  I'm guessing guys either are aware they're on the block or there's issues with shot distribution/touches.  Schlenk can fix that at the deadline or the offseason if Nate cannot get control.

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He can't freaking move off the ball. He doesn't go full speed ever on offense unless he has the rock. He gets tired fast and its mainly noticeable when he's off the ball. When he's on it and tired, I personally think it leads to his mistakes but I am not 100% sure of that. 

 

You want him to be someone he's not so bad but he had it, you don't think any of his coaches including college, AAU, and HS would have tried it by now? It's not like Trae is inconsistent at this or shows flashes. He shows no movement BBIQ. He shows no stamina off the rock. He shows no drive or determination to even consider it regardless if he's playing with PGs, wings, etc. But he's just going to magically become Seth Curry. 

That's like me believing Capela, Drummond or Dwight Howard will become 3 point shooters. 

He didn't have a ballhandler with him in Atlanta or Oklahoma. I think since we're 100% invested into Trae as our franchise player we owe to at least TRY to use him off the ball to see what he can do. Most importantly it diversifies our offense and gives defenses more to worry about than harassing Trae down the court or trapping at half court.

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

It's not his fault, but we have a lot of revisionist history and confirmation bias on this board.

Trae ball got us into the ECF where we took 2 games off the Bucks.  The difference is the team actually believed we could win and played like dogs last year.  We were grinding out 15-20 point comebacks.  I don't know what happened from the playoffs to the regular season but we went from dogs to divas.

And before the haters come in to try to contextualize our run like any bum team could have made it as far as we did, let me stop you.  The Knicks were an overachieving regular season team but we firmly exposed them.  The 76ers were a very good team, so don't be blinded by the Simmons propaganda all over right now.  They have some weaknesses like any team but they were very good and we beat them.  The eventual champs lost 2 games to us.  I believe we could have taken the Suns to 7, win or lose.  So if that's what Trae ball does for us in a season riddled with injuries and lesser talent on the floor, how can anyone straight face argue that we need to blow it up or we are destined for being trash.

Your narratives on Trae change every time we play well or start losing, then reverse course again, then again.  He's the best offensive player of all time and then he's impossible to build a team around.  And no don't tell me both things are true simultaneously because you were just saying we're one piece away from being a contender.  Not even the biggest Trae stan (shoutout to @TheNorthCydeRises) in the world thinks he will ever play good defense, and most don't even believe he can be a great off-ball player, but it's obvious he has generational talent and any time you have offensive generational talent, you have a shot to build a contending team.  

This is a bunch of protect and leave Trae alone chatter. 

Trae ball wasn't even that good in the playoffs. It was the fact that he decided to defend at a NBA league average level which meant our defense was no league average and we played just enough D to win a barnburning series. We wasn't close to play good offense in the playoffs. 

 

My narrative on Trae has generally been the same. 

I never said Trae is trash or we need to blow it up. In fact, all of my solutions involve Trae. Nothing there is to trade Trae. It's just extremely difficult to build around Trae.

Where have I said anything that hes a scrub? All I ever say is he's generational, he's a beast, he's the most skilled player to ever play this game.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, Sothron said:

He didn't have a ballhandler with him in Atlanta or Oklahoma. I think since we're 100% invested into Trae as our franchise player we owe to at least TRY to use him off the ball to see what he can do. Most importantly it diversifies our offense and gives defenses more to worry about than harassing Trae down the court or trapping at half court.

I won't speak to his time at OU, since when wasn't Goodwin, Rondo, Bogi, Hureter, Lin, and Lou not ball handlers?

This leave Trae alone movement is going down bad. Why do we need to lie to protect Trae?

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Yes and yes lol... Wade had 4 of his most efficient season with Lebron.  Any time a guy is getting you more open looks, you're going to be more efficient which is how you win games.  And you should have more energy on the opposite end of the floor and be able to do more of the smaller things (boxing out, rebounding, setting screens, etc.).  And you should have more energy and focus for defense -- which is the crux of our issue right now, Trae is surrounded by players who don't want to play defense or cant play high level defense.

Part of our issue is team chemistry, locker room issues, and part of our problem is coaching.  Nate doesn't have control of the team and the locker room right now and there's no buy in to winning basketball.  I watched John continue to do the connected finger gesture for 30 seconds in a timeout last night imploring the team to be "connected" and "together" because we have clear locker room issues.  I'm guessing guys either are aware they're on the block or there's issues with shot distribution/touches.  Schlenk can fix that at the deadline or the offseason if Nate cannot get control.

You know what I meant. I am talking big HOF numbers. Not efficiency which is effected by who you play with. He wasn't the same player nor was Bosh. Same for Kevin Love. 

[JayBirdHawk]

From my point of view the secondary ball handler is not necessarily to move Trae off ball and have him running around a bunch of screens, that's not his game.  If we have a secondary ball handler that can organize the rest of the team or go get a basket for himself or a teammate by driving the paint out of that trap it changes how teams defend Trae which can in theory give him more CnS opportunities.  

Again - when teams trap Trae, the outlet guy more often than not does nothing with the ball but wait for Trae to get free and reset the offense.  Why are they not doing anything with the ball going to the basket since they should have the advantage since 2 guys are defending Trae - again they just have not been good enough stepping up when teams take Trae away.  They have got to show something, anything with a level of consistency that is sorely lacking....and a big part of that is the coaching philosophy.

[JeffS17]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This is a bunch of protect and leave Trae alone chatter. 

No.  I'm just trying to center the discussion on more productive elements.  Most of us just want to discuss how we can improve the team.  Naysaying doesn't really add anything to that discussion.  Trae is not going anywhere -- he signed the max, he's the franchise player, his name is on the back of all the jerseys we sell.  So instead of venting about how Trae sucks or Trae is a ball hog or Trae is impossible to build a team around, offer some suggestions.  I'm critical of almost everyone on the roster right now -- that includes Trae but not only Trae.  

@JayBirdHawk has repeatedly mentioned how we need a reliable ball handler to punish teams trapping Trae and scheming to force someone else to make plays.  That's probably the easiest way to improve the team right now -- that and coaching.  We look like a team without a coach imo.  I also like the analysis you had on adding KAT to the roster.  His presence alone would make guarding Trae a nightmare and if we could be an average defense that squad would be scary.  Anyways, I'm not spouting protect and leave alone Trae chatter, I don't care if he gets criticism, but at least critique him for things he can control.  He can't control his size, ability to be a +defender, the fact he's hard to build around, or the fact we have starters that can barely dribble outside of him.  If those are your complaints, take it out on Schlenk or coaching.  Valid Trae critiques imo are the piss poor effort on defense against Portland/LA and bad body language at times, and shot selection.  Obviously just my 2 cents but I think that's why you are getting backlash here

[Sothron]

10 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I won't speak to his time at OU, since when wasn't Goodwin, Rondo, Bogi, Hureter, Lin, and Lou not ball handlers?

This leave Trae alone movement is going down bad. Why do we need to lie to protect Trae?

What do they do with the ball though? They just stand there and wait for Trae to get free to give it back to him. When they have the ball they do nothing with it. That's not being a ball handler. If they would drive with it or initiate the offense it would actually help our offense.

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, terrell said:

Hawks need to go ahead and start

Trae/Cam/Hunter/Collins/Capela

When everyone gets healthy..

Its time to Let them grow together..

See if its our lineup of the future or not...

Bogi/Gallo/Lou/Delon should be moved.....

Might as well start getting Rife and JJ into the flow of the NBA..

 

 

 

I think I agree.  Nate cannot be afraid to hurt feelings by benching Bogi.  Trae/Cam/Hunter/Collins/Capela is the lineup we need to be running after the trade deadline assuming none of these guys are moved.  Bogi should be happy as he doesn't seem to love playing with Trae and can put up more shots on the second unit.  Cam/Hunter locked in on defense with Capela protecting the rim has always been the dream for us.  Having those 3 healthy simultaneously has felt impossible but we might be there starting tonight (or Saturday)

[LucastheThird]

I feel like Trae is the biggest cause of our offensive and defensive woes, but it isn't as bad as @NBASupes or @terrell are saying. 

 

Trae is so great at the 1-5 and 1-4 PnR that that *IS* our offense. We run no plays and have no counters. 

 

When comparing Trae to Bron (who is the best at this type of offense) the biggest difference is Bron will not go down with an attack that has been scouted and will not work. We've all heard the stories from former teammates who say that Bron will tell them to be ready at a certain spot even though they aren't in the play at all. Trae doesn't do that at all, he's great at seeing guys cut and getting them the ball. But Trae would rather run the PnR all game even though the opposing Center shows they are ready for it. Turnovers and missed wild shots leads to going down by 10 quick and the wings barely touch the ball, which leads to lower effort from guys who aren't involved. 

 

This is more of a coaching issue to me, Trae can't be allowed to do PnR all game when every team in the league is ready for it now. We need a counter punch and it's inexcusable to not have something. 

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Trae/Cam/Hunter/Collins/Capela is the lineup we need to be running

How long have we been waiting for this lineup?   I fear it will never happen  .   Can't seem to be all healthy at the same time.  Or Nate in his infinite wisdom will refuse to do it.