Message to Hawks coaches: Why the BIG lineup could save the Hawks

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The Cleveland Cavaliers have transformed how they play basketball and the trajectory of their franchise.  Adding Jarrett Allen, obtaining Lauri Markkanen in the offseason, and drafting Evan Mobley and Issac Okoro in the past 2 drafts, has turned them into a team that everyone thought would be at the bottom of the league again, to a legit top 6 team in the East.  Plus they already had their 2 young guards in Garland and Sexton, as well as a jump shooting big Kevin Love and a nice floor leader in Rubio.   Sexton and Rubio are done for the year, but the Cavs haven't lost a beat.

 

How does this relate to the Hawks?  Let's examine what Cleveland is as a team and why they are successful.

 

 

They're not great offensively, but they are middle of the road.  However, the big lineup, as well as having perimeter defenders, has transformed them into a top 3 team defensively. 

The guy that is out of place, is Lauri Markkanen.  He's a guy that Chicago let go for dead, because he never could be that consistent #2 option of a scorer that they believed he could be.  He isn't a bad player.  He just couldn't get to that next level.  And their franchise decided to get a legit #2 guy in free agency ( DeRozan ), instead of overpaying to keep Lauri.  That was definitely the right decision for Chicago.  It was also a career changing move for Lauri.

For Cleveland, it gave them the ability to add a 7 footer in their lineup that they play at SF, along with their 6-11 rim protector ( Allen ) and their 7 foot rookie ( Mobley ) who can play all frontcourt positions.  And they still have Kevin Love, a former All-Star player that shows glimpses of that kind of play once every blue moon, while being solid all around. As for Lauri, he is statistically playing WORSE offensively than he did in Chicago.  But his biggest attribute on the floor is his length on defense, and his "threat" to make shots on the perimeter or around the basket. 

Their current starting lineup looks like this:

• Garland ( 6-1 )
• Okoro ( 6-5 )
• Markkanen ( 7-0 )
• Mobley ( 7-0 )
• Allen ( 6-11 )

This is the typical Lauri game.  Nothing spectacular.  Just playing his role.  Three thing to notice in this clip:

• How the 3 bigs play with each other on defense
• What Lauri's role is on offense and defense, and how his length helps on both ends
• The score of the game on each clip

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Now imagine that instead of Lauri, that team had Danillo Gallinari playing that same role.  They'd have much better shooting out on the perimeter, with much of the same impact on defense.  Because they don't ask Lauri to do too much in the paint, he can play a less physical game out on the perimeter. 

Gallo already plays like a wing for the Hawks, despite officially playing the 4.  That helps us on offense, but hurts us on defense because he's not a good rim protector or a weak side defender.  He's also not physical around the basket on defense.  What he is decent at, is keeping his man in front of him on defense out on the perimeter.  And his length forces jump shooters to put just a little bit more arc on their shot when he gets his hand up.

For the Hawks to maximize a big lineup, they have to hurt some feelings.  And those hurt feelings have to come in the form of reducing the minutes of Huerter and/or Bogi.  Unlike Trae, neither Kevin or Bogi are good enough to offset the amount they give up on defense, by being great on offense.  And for the Hawks, it has been proven that our guards and wings ( with the exception of maybe Hunter ), can't give us balance on both ends. And despite Nate's please to do so, they just aren't tough, physical players that can turn their defense up to that next level.  If they can't do it, they just can't do it.

Here's the lineup I want to see the Hawks at least try

• Trae ( 6-1 )
• Hunter ( 6-8 )
• Gallo ( 6-10 )
• Collins ( 6-9 )
• Capela ( 6-10 )

 

Benefits:

• It gives the Hawks the benefit to still play the way they play now, but with much bigger size on the wings.  Both Collins and Gallo are shooting a higher percentage from 3, than Bogi ( 35% ) and Huerter ( 34% ).  In fact, the trio of Hunter - Gallo - and Collins are all shooting over 40% from 3.  And with Gallo being a better ISO threat than Kevin and Bogi, it may balance out our offense even more in the half court.

 

• On defense, we've increased our chances to grab defensive rebounds due to the increased size.  Hunter is a very poor rebounder for his size at the SF position, so maybe playing him at the 2 and having him crash the boards from that spot, might help in that manner, instead of having him trying to box out a 4 to get one.  This may also help Collins' and Capela's rebounding, if another big was in the area to grab rebounds, instead of a small wing or guard.

 

• It gives the Hawks a better chance to ISO players on weaker/smaller defenders.  Nate likes to go 90s style, and isolate what he thinks are his best offensive players on weaker defenders.  He can achieve this if he plays big with Gallo.  Hunter may also be the beneficiary of this as well. At this point, the Hawks offense becomes too predictable at times, if all the opponents have to worry about is stopping the Trae pick and roll.

 

• It may free up Trae Young even more on the offensive end.  I don't know if most of you have noticed or not, but our opponents are normally playing their largest and best perimeter defender on Trae. Trae isn't going up against other PGs.  He's normally trying to work around SFs and sometimes even PFs, in order to slow him down.  These players are much taller than Trae, and want to eliminate the threat of the 3 point, while also having length trail him to challenge the floater.  This is where finding the mismatch and swinging the ball can come into play. 

 

• The switching that the Hawks do on defense will still keep them big enough to either force 3 point shooters to take quick shots, or have them drive around our big to try to get to the rim.  That's when our rim protectors in Capela, Collins, and Okongwu come into play.  Cleveland does a good job of funneling driving players into Jarrett Allen, while also having another big in the area.  The Hawks could do the same thing . . . if they play big.

 

How about the bench unit:

• Wright ( 6-5 )
• Bogi ( 6-6 )
• Huerter ( 6-7 )
• Okongwu ( 6-8 )
• Dieng ( 6-10 )

 

I'm not an advocate of playing this group extended minutes together.  But this group is a better offensive option than the one we throw out today.  Bogi and Kevin have traditionally not played well off the bench, but at this point we have no choice.  Dieng ( 6-10 ) should get minutes at center, because he's shown to be serviceable at that spot.  Dieng is also a guy that shoots over 40% from 3, and can be used as a secondary shooter out at the 3 point line. 

For me though, moving Okongwu to play the 4 on defense, could be the game changer for the 2nd unit. We got a glimpse last night of how his defense can affect a game.  With Okongwu being 6-8, I say you unleash him even more, and see if he can really affect the game from the 4 spot.  That may also give him a chance to run the floor and get easy basket on the other end.  I would even play Dieng - Collins - Okongwu together at times, just to keep the Hawks big on the floor.

[macdaddy]

Cool stuff!   But isn't the difference here that Lauri/Mobley/Allen are more versatile defenders than Gallo/JC/Capela?  Won't small ball lineups destroy our big lineup because of Gallo/JC inability to guard wings?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Nate has to stop begging guys who are not physical, to play more physical and be better on defense.  Maybe those guys are simply not capable of doing it.  It would be like asking Kyle Korver and Jamal Crawford to turn up their defensive intensity, instead of asking them to be more of an impact of offense. A coach needs to know their player's limitations, from a physical and mental standpoint.

For all of their faults offensively, Wright and TLC played good defense on the perimeter, while Okongwu handled business around the rim.  Gallo provided enough support offensively to get us back in the game, while the defense stayed solid.

This goes back to Nate having a true feel for the game, instead of inserting set rotation players at each point of the game.   And his assistant coaches have to be able to get in Nate's ear, and tell him and some of our starters if need be, that ____________ is playing great right now, and I think it may be best to stay with him to close the game.

 

As I've said all along, our wings are the major weakness of our team.  They're not dynamic and consistent enough on offense, they don't stop anybody on defense, and they don't make the hustle plays that role players should be making. 

Cam is gone, so that will give the other 3 an opportunity to impact the game more.  But the players that may be the key to us turning this around may be asking the bigs to take on a bigger role on defense, not the wings.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

9 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Cool stuff!   But isn't the difference here that Lauri/Mobley/Allen are more versatile defenders than Gallo/JC/Capela?  Won't small ball lineups destroy our big lineup because of Gallo/JC inability to guard wings?

 

That is a theory that has not been proven.

Collins can guard out on the perimeter. So can Gallo.

And I'm going to say this about Gallo.  Some people may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it.  Don't look at Gallo and say "oh he's just some soft Euro who can't defend . . or he's some white player who can't defend".  The dude has played in a lot of NBA games and understands what his limitations are.  He knows what he can and cannot do.  And regardless of what people say about that dude, he made the biggest defensive play in team history, by being a smart defender and anticipating what Embiid was about to do in this situation.

 

 

 

The effort and position that all 3 of our bigs were making on this play, absolutely convinces me that if you asked them to do more on defense, that they can do it.  It will enable us to switch a lot better, without creating a gross mismatch, and they could help each other out a lot better.

John Collins is a better defender than Evan Mobley at this point in time.  Capela can guard the rim, and could even guard 4s out on the perimeter if need be.  He'd at least give the effort to do so, because that's his mindset.  And Gallo time and again has stayed in front of SFs that look to get off their jumper, instead of trying to drive past him.

 

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again, and expecting a different result.  This team needs to do something totally different than what they're doing now.  And if they have to hurt our shooters feelings to do so, it is what it is.

And if Nate isn't willing to do it, he becomes a major part of the problem and may have to be let go.

I'm not normally an advocate for coaches being fired, but when you lose 16 of your last 22 games, that's reason to be fired.

[macdaddy]

17 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Nate has to stop begging guys who are not physical, to play more physical and be better on defense.  Maybe those guys are simply not capable of doing it.  

For all of their faults offensively, Wright and TLC played good defense on the perimeter, while Okongwu handled business around the rim.  Gallo provided enough support offensively to get us back in the game, while the defense stayed solid.

As I've said all along, our wings are the major weakness of our team.  They're not dynamic and consistent enough on offense,

 

werd.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That is a theory that has not been proven.

Collins can guard out on the perimeter. So can Gallo.

They can guard on the perimeter on switches and hold their own but i think that's different than guarding wings full time and full court right?   

I agree it's worth a shot but I'm maybe a little skeptical.  

[JeffS17]

21 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

That is a theory that has not been proven.

Collins can guard out on the perimeter. So can Gallo.

And I'm going to say this about Gallo.  Some people may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it.  Don't look at Gallo and say "oh he's just some soft Euro who can't defend . . or he's some white player who can't defend".  The dude has played in a lot of NBA games and understands what his limitations are.  He knows what he can and cannot do.  And regardless of what people say about that dude, he made the biggest defensive play in team history, by being a smart defender and anticipating what Embiid was about to do in this situation.

 

 

 

The effort and position that all 3 of our bigs were making on this play, absolutely convinces me that if you asked them to do more on defense, that they can do it.  It will enable us to switch a lot better, without creating a gross mismatch, and they could help each other out a lot better.

John Collins is a better defender than Evan Mobley at this point in time.  Capela can guard the rim, and could even guard 4s out on the perimeter if need be.  He'd at least give the effort to do so, because that's his mindset.  And Gallo time and again has stayed in front of SFs that look to get off their jumper, instead of trying to drive past him.

 

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again, and expecting a different result.  This team needs to do something totally different than what they're doing now.  And if they have to hurt our shooters feelings to do so, it is what it is.

And if Nate isn't willing to do it, he becomes a major part of the problem and may have to be let go.

I'm not normally an advocate for coaches being fired, but when you lose 16 of your last 22 games, that's reason to be fired.

geez, i forgot what we looked like locked in on defense, this clip still gives me chills though -- the play that locked us into the ECF.

[macdaddy]

Just now, JeffS17 said:

geez, i forgot what we looked like locked in on defense, this clip still gives me chills though -- the play that locked us into the ECF.

That's the thing.  Gallo, Bogi and even Lou haven't forgotten how to play basketball.  Nate hasn't decided to coach badly.  We're capable of winning with this personnel.  Sure we need some upgrades but we CAN do it. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

47 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Cool stuff!   But isn't the difference here that Lauri/Mobley/Allen are more versatile defenders than Gallo/JC/Capela?  Won't small ball lineups destroy our big lineup because of Gallo/JC inability to guard wings?

 

Also, those small ball lineups have to defend on the other end.  So how do you neutralize a team that plays small?  You punish them on the offensive end by putting them in awkward positions on defense.  

Small Ball worked for the Lakers for about 4 games, until the opponents figured out that they can attack their smaller players and even Lebron in the paint, while keeping a hand in the defenders face on 3 point shots.  They've gone from being on a high after beating the hell out of us, to their fans trashing them again because of their lack of effort.

Even Magic is upset.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Here's the lineup I want to see the Hawks at least try

• Trae ( 6-1 )
• Hunter ( 6-8 )
• Gallo ( 6-10 )
• Collins ( 6-9 )
• Capela ( 6-10 )

 

I see no downside in trying this.  It isn't like our other rotations are working right now and we had success with a version of this in the past.  Gives a very different look on the floor which makes us less predictable to prepare for.

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again, and expecting a different result.  This team needs to do something totally different than what they're doing now.  And if they have to hurt our shooters feelings to do so, it is what it is.

 

This^^^^^

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

They can guard on the perimeter on switches and hold their own but i think that's different than guarding wings full time and full court right?   

I agree it's worth a shot but I'm maybe a little skeptical.  

 

Well we KNOW that our wings can't do it.  So why not ask our mobile bigs to do it?

The NBA is a 3 point happy league right now.  Guys that should be driving to the basket, are settling for 3 point shots that they can't even make 33% of the time.  I think our bigs are mobile enough to keep people in front of them, and force contested jumpshots.

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

That is a theory that has not been proven.

Collins can guard out on the perimeter. So can Gallo.

And I'm going to say this about Gallo.  Some people may not like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it.  Don't look at Gallo and say "oh he's just some soft Euro who can't defend . . or he's some white player who can't defend".  The dude has played in a lot of NBA games and understands what his limitations are.  He knows what he can and cannot do.  And regardless of what people say about that dude, he made the biggest defensive play in team history, by being a smart defender and anticipating what Embiid was about to do in this situation.

 

 

 

The effort and position that all 3 of our bigs were making on this play, absolutely convinces me that if you asked them to do more on defense, that they can do it.  It will enable us to switch a lot better, without creating a gross mismatch, and they could help each other out a lot better.

John Collins is a better defender than Evan Mobley at this point in time.  Capela can guard the rim, and could even guard 4s out on the perimeter if need be.  He'd at least give the effort to do so, because that's his mindset.  And Gallo time and again has stayed in front of SFs that look to get off their jumper, instead of trying to drive past him.

 

The definition of insanity is doing something over and over again, and expecting a different result.  This team needs to do something totally different than what they're doing now.  And if they have to hurt our shooters feelings to do so, it is what it is.

And if Nate isn't willing to do it, he becomes a major part of the problem and may have to be let go.

I'm not normally an advocate for coaches being fired, but when you lose 16 of your last 22 games, that's reason to be fired.

I dont know about the bolded of this but I do think this was an excellent post. 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Nate has to stop begging guys who are not physical, to play more physical and be better on defense.  Maybe those guys are simply not capable of doing it.  It would be like asking Kyle Korver and Jamal Crawford to turn up their defensive intensity, instead of asking them to be more of an impact of offense. A coach needs to know their player's limitations, from a physical and mental standpoint.

For all of their faults offensively, Wright and TLC played good defense on the perimeter, while Okongwu handled business around the rim.  Gallo provided enough support offensively to get us back in the game, while the defense stayed solid.

This goes back to Nate having a true feel for the game, instead of inserting set rotation players at each point of the game.   And his assistant coaches have to be able to get in Nate's ear, and tell him and some of our starters if need be, that ____________ is playing great right now, and I think it may be best to stay with him to close the game.

 

As I've said all along, our wings are the major weakness of our team.  They're not dynamic and consistent enough on offense, they don't stop anybody on defense, and they don't make the hustle plays that role players should be making. 

Cam is gone, so that will give the other 3 an opportunity to impact the game more.  But the players that may be the key to us turning this around may be asking the bigs to take on a bigger role on defense, not the wings.

The first paragraph is flames. Love it! This team has a tremendous lack of dawgs in the 1st unit. 

I really dont agree with the wings part. Especially Huerter and Bogi. If we were to trade them, we will be looking for others, just like em. Hunter might need to be downgraded but JC or Capela must be upgraded in that same token.

[shakes]

we don't have a single player over 6'11 so how exactly are we gonna mimic what Cleveland is doing?

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

we don't have a single player over 6'11 so how exactly are we gonna mimic what Cleveland is doing?

 

 

I don't think a duplication was the suggestion but it is a much bigger look to run some minutes with:

6'8'' SG (Hunter)

6'10'' SF (Gallo)

6'9'' PF (JC)

6'10'' C (Cap)

vs

6'6'' (Bogi)

6'7'' (Huerter)

6'8'' (Hunter)

6'9'' (JC)

 

We've seen minutes with the second group but not really with the first.  Suggestion is to give the first group a try and see if it helps.  Part of that thought, I suspect, is also that guys like Hunter or JC who are liabilities rebounding most games in the current rotations might be assets on the boards when matched up against smaller wings.  

[Packfill]

Nothing wrong with trying something new but none of the Hawks front court guys are as dynamic defenders as Mobley and thus I don't see how this could work.  Also, at this point in his career, Gallo can't handle the minutes that Markkanen plays (plus if you really wanted to copy Cleveland Gallo is a better fit for the Love veteran bench role). 

The Hawks played so well in the second half last year because Bogi stepped up and performed as a proper number 2 scorer and secondary ball handler.  He has not played at that level this year of course and that coupled with a slightly down year from Capela shows just how thin the Hawks winning margin was last year (that is true for most teams though, so not a unique critique of the Hawks).