Double teaming Trae...

[thecampster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_team#:~:text=In basketball%2C a double team,guard a single offensive player.

I'm getting a bit in the weeds here, but help defense happens a great deal when a player sags off his man to cut off penetration or attempt to block a shot but he hasn't given up on his man altogether. Or in the case of zone, shades out of his zone to another zone to deter a man from driving that direction.

 

In a double team, a player leaves his man in order to act as a second dedicated defender and causing the other 3 players on his squad to rotate as needed.  Minor annoyance but we have a day off so thought I'd clarify for the sake of the discussion.

In basketball, a double team (also double-team, double teaming, or double-teaming) is a defensive alignment in which two defensive players are assigned to guard a single offensive player.

 

 

[thecampster]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This^.  Doubled as soon as he crosses the half court line to make him give up the ball.

Which is essentially a trap and not a traditional double team but yes...I agree.

 

[thecampster]

Pick up at 19 minute mark to get the lingo...then jump to 40 minute mark which is the zone version of what we are facing.

 

Earlier in the year when we struggled in a game with the press, you heard me talk about passing mid to side to break the press to create the appropriate angles.  This video does a great job of letting you be a coach in your head and see these things how they're designed.

 

Now second video does a good job of explaining help defense vs double team (ignore how unathletic this dude looks, the information is solid).  Like 14 years ago Diesel and I argued whether or not Joe Johnson was getting doubled when in reality most of the doubles he was seeing was just help defense because well...Iso Joe.

Instruction picks up at the 1 minute mark.

 

He alludes to help in zone when is just repositioning the zone but its effect is still help defense.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I swear this site has regressed so badly in post quality due to dap fishing and emotional babble. 

 

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en/metrics/double-teams

I can agree with that since Luka's methodology is to effectively start posting and backing at about 12 feet and command the help to sell out to get the ball out of his hands. 

Again, I think the board is confusing Trap vs Double vs Help.

[REHawksFan]

36 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I can agree with that since Luka's methodology is to effectively start posting and backing at about 12 feet and command the help to sell out to get the ball out of his hands. 

Again, I think the board is confusing Trap vs Double vs Help.

Terminology aside, there's a difference in how teams play Trae vs how they play Luka. Do you agree with that?  

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

Terminology aside, there's a difference in how teams play Trae vs how they play Luka. Do you agree with that?  

Absolutely but it isn't so cut and dry.  Trae is initiating beyond the 3 point line, most of Luka's damage happens when he faces up or backs down inside 12-15 feet. 

There is no need to double Luka coming across court (nor would it work because of his height).

A fair assessment takes into account they are very different players with a very different mindset. Trae is the chicken that Rocky never catches. You have to throw everything at him to catch him. With Luka, its about pushing him off his spot without giving up defense on his other players. This is typically done with showing on him to stop him from driving to his spots. If you force Luka off his spots he becomes very mortal.

 

With Trae, no 1 person is going to stop him. Philly tried last year and was embarrassed. 

 

 

[benhillboy]

Semantics aside, it’s not very smart to “double” him.  Hedges especially since he only picks up his dribble prematurely due to a misread on his part, never dribble pressure.  

As long as he has another playmaker on the floor in Delon, Bogi, and Kevin, that wicked bounce pass from all angles, and the improved wherewithal of when, where, and how to get off the ball it’s a foolish proposition.  I hate it took Nate damn near the whole season to pair Trae with Delon; he’s more unpredictable when he isn’t in the center of the floor all the time.  He can actually get better at reading poor doubles and splitting them.

Best bet is just single him up with 2 different styled elite defenders the whole damn game, easier said than done of course.  Jrue, Herb Jones, and Jose Alvarado had the most success I’ve seen on Trae within the past year off top.  I can’t recall much of Giannis singled on Trae.  Thybulle can block his three but that’s about it he got roasted last series.

Edited April 14, 2022 by benhillboy

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Semantics aside, it’s not very smart to “double” him.  Hedges especially since he only picks up his dribble prematurely due to a misread on his part, never dribble pressure.  

As long as he has another playmaker on the floor in Delon, Bogi, and Kevin, that wicked bounce pass from all angles, and the improved wherewithal of when, where, and how to get off the ball it’s a foolish proposition.  I hate it took Nate damn near the whole season to pair Trae with Delon; he’s more unpredictable when he isn’t in the center of the floor all the time.  He can actually get better at reading poor doubles and splitting them.

Best bet is just single him up with 2 different styled elite defenders the whole damn game, easier said than done of course.  Jrue, Herb Jones, and Jose Alvarado had the most success I’ve seen on Trae within the past year off top.  I can’t recall much of Giannis singled on Trae.  Thybulle can block his three but that’s about it he got roasted last series.

That's a new thing.   The double team use to work.   In listening to Trae, he explained it like this... "I trust my teammates".    This is the key.  Before, his trust was low and he put a whole lot on his own shoulders and that's when the double and the trap works.  When I watch Garland play some good defenses, this is what happens to him.   He dribbles into traps and can't pass out.  Trae has the speed, the skill, and the vision to not do that as much.   I suspect that teams will still try because sometimes, our "others" shot is off.  John the Baptist is a good safety valve for this. 

 

[benhillboy]

17 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's a new thing.   The double team use to work.   In listening to Trae, he explained it like this... "I trust my teammates".    This is the key.  Before, his trust was low and he put a whole lot on his own shoulders and that's when the double and the trap works.  When I watch Garland play some good defenses, this is what happens to him.   He dribbles into traps and can't pass out.  Trae has the speed, the skill, and the vision to not do that as much.   I suspect that teams will still try because sometimes, our "others" shot is off.  John the Baptist is a good safety valve for this. 

 

Yeah he’s learning obviously.  I gotta keep remembering how young he is.  CP3 level IQ and generalship out the gate just ain’t realistic for 99% of PGs coming out of the college situations that they do.

[Spud2nique]

We don’t wanna hear about your fantasies. 

[QuantumHawkz]

I still don't understand why people assume Luka is better than Trae..... because I've seen no evidence of that. In fact Trae leading the league in total points and assist and with an eastern conference finals appearance proves that he's better than Luka. Trae is the ONLY two way offensive player that you have to game plan for.  It's a pick your poison type of deal. Trae is a generational talent.......hell, I'm starting to think that he might be the best player on the planet.

[QuantumHawkz]

And yeah, traping and doubling are two different defenses. Teams are traping Trae a lot more in the last few weeks, but if the "other's" keeps playing at this level then teams can't afford to trap.

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, QuantumHawkz said:

I still don't understand why people assume Luka is better than Trae..... because I've seen no evidence of that. In fact Trae leading the league in total points and assist and with an eastern conference finals appearance proves that he's better than Luka. Trae is the ONLY two way offensive player that you have to game plan for.  It's a pick your poison type of deal. Trae is a generational talent.......hell, I'm starting to think that he might be the best player on the planet.

Bottom line is that Trae is a better scorer (more efficient) and he's a better assister.   Luka just give people Bird vibes.  Trae is beyond that but he is discounted because he's small. 

[REHawksFan]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Bottom line is that Trae is a better scorer (more efficient) and he's a better assister.   Luka just give people Bird vibes.  Trae is beyond that but he is discounted because he's small. 

Can't tell you how many times I've heard a so called expert make a statement such as "Trae is 5'10" playing a tall-man's game. He'll never be as good as Luka for that reason alone."  

It ridiculous, but many people have created some artificial ceiling that Trae can never break through in their mind simply because of his height.  Doesn't matter what he produces or how eye-popping his passes and scoring are, "he can't be 1st team" or "he can't be MVP" because he's short.  

I think the only way some folks are going to change their view is if he keeps chipping away at the narrative and keeps putting up the historic numbers while also leading his team deep in the playoffs year after year.  Eventually, these folks won't have a choice but to raise that ceiling because Trae will take a damn sledgehammer to it if they don't. 

Luka gets the benefit of coming into the NBA with an assumed 1st Team All NBA / MVP level ceiling while Trae was strapped with the Occasional All-Star ceiling.  Sucks but it is what it is.  

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Can't tell you how many times I've heard a so called expert make a statement such as "Trae is 5'10" playing a tall-man's game. He'll never be as good as Luka for that reason alone."  

It ridiculous, but many people have created some artificial ceiling that Trae can never break through in their mind simply because of his height.  Doesn't matter what he produces or how eye-popping his passes and scoring are, "he can't be 1st team" or "he can't be MVP" because he's short.  

I think the only way some folks are going to change their view is if he keeps chipping away at the narrative and keeps putting up the historic numbers while also leading his team deep in the playoffs year after year.  Eventually, these folks won't have a choice but to raise that ceiling because Trae will take a damn sledgehammer to it if they don't. 

Luka gets the benefit of coming into the NBA with an assumed 1st Team All NBA / MVP level ceiling while Trae was strapped with the Occasional All-Star ceiling.  Sucks but it is what it is.  

Well, this is something that Trae has dealt with his whole life.  This is the chip on his shoulder.  He's going to pulverize the competition until they start to respect him. 

[AHF]

22 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I swear this site has regressed so badly in post quality due to dap fishing and emotional babble. 

 

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en/metrics/double-teams

While there is an interesting discussion to be had about where people are 'doubled' and what is 'double teaming' etc. there is an interesting thing I noted on this metric.  

Other than the Bucks players (Giannis & Jrue), no one has better numbers for how many points their teams score when they are doubled than Trae.  I haven't tracked that metric over the years but it says that Atlanta is now elite in punishing defense when Trae gets double teamed (as defined in this metric) and I suspect that is a notable improvement from prior seasons.

[LucastheThird]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:02 AM, shakes said:

this 100%.   

Except the last purple part which is stupid.  The reason you don't double Luka is because at 6'7 he can easily pass over the double team.  Trae can't do that which makes him a much easier person to double.

 

23 hours ago, Diesel said:

No offense.   But that's B.S.   I watched Durant get Doubled this year and was flustered because it was the first time in his career that a team could sell out to double him.  

In the playoffs, don't be surprised if teams gave Luka the Trae treatment... and watch the Mavs crumble.

Kevin Durant on getting Doubled:

 

You both realize that the purple and Italics was for sarcasm (and a bit of realgm nonsense) and you're both saying what I thought right? The double team when done correctly can rattle any player, it's up to the defenders to be quick and decisive on executing.