This is the closest that the Hawks have been to a contender since I've been a fan. It's not that bad although it's currently awful.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Based on what numbers?   Cam is more efficient i'll give you that.   Mainly because Thibs got his threes down.  Murray is more efficient here.   Kev has gotten to the line better but not sure how that's on Trae.   All are marginally different in every category. 

Bro, look at their offensive RAPTOR for the last 3 years. All of them are doing better this year but Murray

Edited December 28, 2022 by NBASupes

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Bro, look at their offensive RAPTOR for the last 3 years. All of them are doing better this year but Murray

Ah ok i see now.   Cam's Raptor is so good he's been DNP for the last 12 games.

[skimaskway23]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Bro, look at their offensive RAPTOR for the last 3 years. All of them are doing better this year but Murray

And it's been Nate's system for 2 years. 

 

You acting like he was out there with Klay Thompsons running around. The reality is he hasn't had knockdown shooters around him besides Gallo.

Wings can work with Trae as long as they can shoot. We happen to have inconsistent shooters throughout the roster.

 

You think Mike D'antoni would run a system where John Collins is our safety valve on kick outs?

Trae averaging 10assists with some of the worst shooting I've ever seen is a miracle in itself

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Ah ok i see now.   Cam's Raptor is so good he's been DNP for the last 12 games.

POTD.

[Packfill]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This team is trash and boring to watch but they got the pieces. For years, they never had the pieces or was even close. They might have had teams with superior fit like the ECF Hawks with Trae or the 60 win Hawks who had elite chemistry and fit. This team an anti fit everywhere but that said, the right pieces do fit. 

Trae

Bogi/Griffin

Hunter

Okongwu 

all fit and are all championship level players if paired correctly. 

JC isn't and I been saying that for years. Travis probably got fired because of JC signing which I said we should let him walk but no Supes, you are a hater. Now everyone knows I am right like usual, again. 

Capela is a championship level role player but he can't be in a role that's this damn critical. He needs to be a garbage man, who can set good screens and be a part of an elite defense where he has guys who can go around him on that end. He doesn't need to be a top 3 player in your rotation. He needs to be a DMC type at best. As long as Trae is the PG, the center is the 2nd most critical position on the squad and Capela is too limited offensively for that and he kills pairing as well. It may work for a team like LAC who plays tweeners who play away from the paint well but most other teams will have trouble fitting him in. 

Murray is our best player. He's actually a championship level #3 who needs touches. You can win with him as a #2 but your defense has to be overall, elite around him otherwise he's not good enough. In Atlanta, he just don't get enough quality touches as his fit with Trae just isn't natural as no SG/SF will have a natural fit with Trae. I know this always irks Trae fans but you keep watching and eventually you start coming around to what I am generally on top of, years in advanced. 

JJ probably shouldn't be a rotational player at this stage but what do you have to lose. He has potential and you gotta give someone a chance. 

The Holiday brothers are temps. 

Martin is showing flashes in GL. 

Frank sucks to me but it is what it is and he's a #3 Center, most of them suck if not all of them. 

I think we are close. We are just an elite or excellent offensive minded center away. I was really high on getting Sabonis but we couldn't get him. I was fairly high on Ayton but internal issues waived that off. I do think Trae will be willing to do more things that benefit him and not be short-sided as he's been recently that's f***ed up our squad while in his mind, making us better but Trae like so many players don't understand their game. They just know their game but don't understand it. I know and understand their games. I don't know it like they do but I damn sure understand it.

 

I remember the Highlight factory Hawks. The only player with value was Al Horford. Atlanta at one time was offered Steph for Horford. They declined and I agreed, you would just waste Steph and he had injury issues at the time. He wasn't seen as much better if at all better than Ty Lawson and this wasn't the Steph that broke out yet. Atlanta wanted to trade Josh Smith but no one wanted him. Atlanta even looked to move Iso Joe but no one wanted to give much in equal value as the cost would just be too significant. So, they were extremely limited. Of the pieces that fit, I can only say Iso Joe and Horford made sense. I never cared for Smoove and Jeff was too up and down at that time. Then we were locked into bad salaries. While this looks close, I don't believe it was because we couldn't trade Horford or it would kill us. We can trade Murray and it won't kill us. That said, the value has to be significant. Even a fair trade like Steph (at that time, not prime Steph of course, no one would trade him) for Horford wouldn't have made us any better and as far as were with team building, it's likely the Steph we know today wouldn't be what he is in Atlanta if even still being in Atlanta. 

So I am fine with this squad. Landry probably won't be able to move JC till the offseason. As far as trades, you gotta be looking to see if Sabonis, KAT or Embiid is available for trade. You gotta land one of them. It's critical! I do believe KAT could eventually end up being traded and Atlanta has to aggressively pursue that. Having Murray is critical as he's a top 25 player, the best player on the Hawks and he's trade bait for the right guy. 

There is so much here to comment on.

But, the fact that essentially you are saying this is team is close to championship caliber while also saying Murray is the team's best player (which no one that has ever received a paycheck from the NBA or an NBA franchise would ever agree with) and that he is not more than a #3 on a championship squad to me is the most noteworthy.

Hard to be close to a championship squad if you still need those proverbial two best players!!!!  

[macdaddy]

The thing is i agree with @NBASupes premise.   He lost me in some of the details but bottom line with a new coach a couple of solid vets we could be top 4 in the east instead of mid pack. 

[BudBall]

I didn't realize how important Gallo was to our team. His impact is missed for sure. 

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Ah ok i see now.   Cam's Raptor is so good he's been DNP for the last 12 games.

Defense is why Cam is out of the rotation. He's been stinking it up on that end. His offense was more of the same but his defense dropped off a cliff as it did with us.

2 hours ago, skimaskway23 said:

And it's been Nate's system for 2 years. 

 

You acting like he was out there with Klay Thompsons running around. The reality is he hasn't had knockdown shooters around him besides Gallo.

Wings can work with Trae as long as they can shoot. We happen to have inconsistent shooters throughout the roster.

 

You think Mike D'antoni would run a system where John Collins is our safety valve on kick outs?

Trae averaging 10assists with some of the worst shooting I've ever seen is a miracle in itself

Ya'll love to blame Nate and others but I promise, ain't shit gonna change with Trae at the helm. Fire everyone, keep firing them, ain't shit gonna change 

[NBASupes]

42 minutes ago, Packfill said:

There is so much here to comment on.

But, the fact that essentially you are saying this is team is close to championship caliber while also saying Murray is the team's best player (which no one that has ever received a paycheck from the NBA or an NBA franchise would ever agree with) and that he is not more than a #3 on a championship squad to me is the most noteworthy.

Hard to be close to a championship squad if you still need those proverbial two best players!!!!  

The pieces are close, we don't have the premium piece we need with Trae. That was suppose to be Murray but it's not. 

[skimaskway23]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Defense is why Cam is out of the rotation. He's been stinking it up on that end. His offense was more of the same but his defense dropped off a cliff as it did with us.

Ya'll love to blame Nate and others but I promise, ain't shit gonna change with Trae at the helm. Fire everyone, keep firing them, ain't shit gonna change 

So Nate doesnt deserve criticism? His track record of inept offense and lack of adjustments holds no weight?

Regardless whether you gripes with Trae are warranted or not, you haven't seen him coached by a true offensive mind or someone universally known as a great coach.

You've called Trae the Messi of basketball. It may be hard to build around him, but it can be done. Do we have the right guys to do it? That's the question

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, skimaskway23 said:

So Nate doesnt deserve criticism? His track record of inept offense and lack of adjustments holds no weight?

Regardless whether you gripes with Trae are warranted or not, you haven't seen him coached by a true offensive mind or someone universally known as a great coach.

You've called Trae the Messi of basketball. It may be hard to build around him, but it can be done. Do we have the right guys to do it? That's the question

Nate does deserve some criticism but what you want Nate to do is not possible for any coach. He can't change Trae's style of play. That's what you guys are basically asking for and no coach is going to do that. Trae just sucks at a lot of the things you guys request. You said Nate is suppose to be a defensive mind. Hawks have a higher defensive rating than their ORating and Trae still looking like trash on D. Bogi still playing Olay defense. But he got better personnel and made it better on that end. 

Ya'll want something that just can't be fixed by coaching or a coaching change. 

Some of ya'll complaints can be fixed but most of it can't be fixed and it will never be a thing in Atlanta. This is gonna be a spammy offense forever like Lamar in Baltimore. It is what it is. 

I've called him Basketball Messi, the best offensive talent I've seen and when it comes together it's beautiful. But it has to be ran through him. That's where he differs than Messi. Messi can just be a role player in a game and add value. Trae has to be the driver. Trae is an once in a generation offensive talent but his issues with fit make him one of the most difficult players to build around that I've ever seen and that's just speaking offense only. Defense is another story altogether 

I've always said, Michael Vick is Allen Iverson. Lamar Jackson is Trae Young. Special players. You can win it all with them in the right system and personnel but you need so much from them and you just wonder, how long can it last. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by NBASupes

[skimaskway23]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Nate does deserve some criticism but what you want Nate to do is not possible for any coach. He can't change Trae's style of play. That's what you guys are basically asking for and no coach is going to do that. Trae just sucks at a lot of the things you guys request. You said Nate is suppose to be a defensive mind. Hawks have a higher defensive rating than their ORating and Trae still looking like trash on D. Bogi still playing Olay defense. But he got better personnel and made it better on that end. 

Ya'll want something that just can't be fixed by coaching or a coaching change. 

Some of ya'll complaints can be fixed but most of it can't be fixed and it will never be a thing in Atlanta. This is gonna be a spammy offense forever like Lamar in Baltimore. It is what it is. 

I've called him Messi, the best offensive talent I've seen and when it comes together it's beautiful. But it has to be ran through him. That's where he differs than Messi. Messi can just be a role player in a game and add value. Trae has to be the driver. Trae is an once in a generation offensive talent but his issues with fit make him one of the most difficult players to build around that I've ever seen and that's just speaking offense only. Defense is another story altogether 

If there were guys on this team that could afford Trae the luxury of playing off ball he probably would.

I don't blame him for calling for ball when you got hunter and Collins dribble off their feet out of bounds. We sit here and watch Murray take 7-8 3s in a game and don't bat an eye.

There is literally no other team that starts a 4 and 5 that can't shoot. We start 2 non shooters at the 4 and 5.

This lineup needs balanced shooting or a center like KAT like you've mentioned. Or a sniper at the 4 like bojan.

Get that, and we have yet to seen the best of Trae.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, skimaskway23 said:

If there were guys on this team that could afford Trae the luxury of playing off ball he probably would.

I don't blame him for calling for ball when you got hunter and Collins dribble off their feet out of bounds. We sit here and watch Murray take 7-8 3s in a game and don't bat an eye.

There is literally no other team that starts a 4 and 5 that can't shoot. We start 2 non shooters at the 4 and 5.

This lineup needs balanced shooting or a center like KAT like you've mentioned. Or a sniper at the 4 like bojan.

Get that, and we have yet to seen the best of Trae.

Ya'll keep saying this as if this is true when it's not. Trae doesn't like to move without the ball, when he's running if it goes a possession or two where we don't produce, he does the Cam Reddish and wants to go back to YOLO. He doesn't have any patience for anyone other than himself. It is what it is. This whole, if others stepped up is what I keep saying is the biggest issue with this fanbase who lean Trae. You blame everyone for something Trae can do right now. Mike did it, Kirk did it. Jeff did it. Delon did it. Lou to a much lesser extent did it. Jeremy did it. Dennis did it. All of our PGs for the last 20 years could play off the ball to a degree or even well, Trae can't do it at all. 

If Trae was cutting, they wouldn't be dribbling the ball off their feet as players would be open reacting to the ball movement but all it takes to kill ball movement is one player being stationary. 

JC can shoot. His issue is his touches dropped insanely since the Murray trade and more since Nate got the job as he moved to the 1/5 PnR. 

KAT doesn't just balance out our lineup. Defenses are forced to scheme him with Trae. Add how teams are already forced to scheme Trae, it makes it hell for teams to defend us.

The biggest issue is teams don't have to scheme the Hawks and last year they did because of JC's floor spacing skills and finishing skills but both hit a cliff this year till lately. Our bigs have never been good creators, that's been all Trae but when Trae is struggling shooting too, it hurts everyone. A LOT! 

I agree, I don't believe we seen MVP Trae yet. 

[BudBall]

I can agree with Supes on that front, Trae refuses to do what it takes to play off ball, he has never done it his whole basketball life and its too hard for him to give up that control of on-ball dominance. It was easy for a guy like Steph to play off ball because that is what he did for the most part at Davidson; Jason Richards was the point guard and average 8 assist a game.

[macdaddy]

I just don't understand why we would want Trae off the ball regularly.  We're going to change what we knew worked because Miami shut us down one series when half the team was injured?  Trae is the best scorer/facilitator in one package in the league.  Give him the ball until they force it out of his hands.  Surround him with guys who know what to do with it when they get it.  

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, BudBall said:

I can agree with Supes on that front, Trae refuses to do what it takes to play off ball, he has never done it his whole basketball life and its too hard for him to give up that control of on-ball dominance. It was easy for a guy like Steph to play off ball because that is what he did for the most part at Davidson; Jason Richards was the point guard and average 8 assist a game.

I hate when they expect Trae to do like one of the greatest off ball players of all time in Steph Curry. If it was so easy, everyone would be doing what he or Korver did. It's hard and it takes elite stamina, strength, grit, elite off ball BBIQ, and a hunger to get open when teams are doing everything to avoid it. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

At the end of the day, I am keeping a keen eye on KAT and Embiid. 

With Harden considering leaving Philly to go back home to Houston, there might be a window for the Hawks to make a trade for Embiid. 

I am also keeping an eye on Minny who has the same extreme fit issues as we do and KAT. I am keeping an eye on both. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just don't understand why we would want Trae off the ball regularly.  We're going to change what we knew worked because Miami shut us down one series when half the team was injured?  Trae is the best scorer/facilitator in one package in the league.  Give him the ball until they force it out of his hands.  Surround him with guys who know what to do with it when they get it.  

This is where my agreement comes. 

It seems as if we just totally ignored circumstance and went straight to the change everything based on the Miami series.   The Thing I will give Murray is that he can handle the ball and run offense in Trae's stead.  But I don't need Trae to become a full time off ball player.  It's like Making Dak into a running back.

 

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is where my agreement comes. 

It seems as if we just totally ignored circumstance and went straight to the change everything based on the Miami series.   The Thing I will give Murray is that he can handle the ball and run offense in Trae's stead.  But I don't need Trae to become a full time off ball player.  It's like Making Dak into a running back.

 

I honestly think they did what I would have done. They saw a premium asset available for a reasonable price (expensive but reasonable) and jumped on it. I can't get mad at that honestly. They needed another top 25 player and got him. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

I honestly think they did what I would have done. They saw a premium asset available for a reasonable price (expensive but reasonable) and jumped on it. I can't get mad at that honestly. They needed another top 25 player and got him. 

yeah and they needed a better 2 than what Kev was giving us as a starter.   I'm all for having Murray but i'm not on board with the taking turns approach at PG even though I think they've mostly given up on that.