We've been spoiled.

[marco102]

9 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This is the issue a lot of ppl have with Trae stans on here.  The mental gymnastics you're doing to defend Trae's turnovers is wild.  You do watch the games right?  You see the wild passes, the driving under the basket and turning it over, the home run passes that get picked off, the lazy passes, etc.

To address your asinine point trying to compare Trae to players 35+ years ago, yes -- MJ turned over a lot in his rookie year.  And for Magic/IT, you can see their assists right there -- that's elite assist:turnover % for guys running the offense... both of them over 3:1, IT is close to 4:1.  

I have to say that a lot of Trae's turnovers are people breaking up lobs.  

He does have some home runnish ones too, but when he makes those we are happy with him.  

The entire he lead the league in turnovers is a terrible argument though.  A better approach would be assist to turnover ratio where he's 2.47 to 1, I believe, and that's really solid. 

not saying he doesn't need to improve them, but just saying he's bad for leading the league is not a good argument imo.

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, shakes said:

huh?

We are discussing the loss to Boston.

[macdaddy]

24 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Guys in Collins pay range: Draymond, Julius Randle, Mike Conley, Afernee Simons, Brogdon, Rozier, Vucevic, VanVleet...

Guys in Bogi/Capela pay range: Dinwiddie, Gallinari, Levert, Joe Harris, Sabonis (not for long), Harrison Barnes, Steven Adams, Gary Trent Jr, Jonathon Isaac...

I would say they're playing as good or better than their peers.  There's some expectation that Hawks role players should be much better than what they're being paid while our guy on a $200M+ contract should be given pass after pass.  I get that a lot of fans have a parasocial relationship with Trae, and we've done nothing but market Trae Young for 4 years, but at some point I have to defend the other guys.

Do you know what makes guys in those pay ranges look good?  A superstar player that is elevating their game.  Otherwise, we have a collection of guys playing like I would expect from the contracts they are on.  You're not going to get super solid impact players for $18M/year in 2023.  

I just don't see that anyone is giving Trae a pass.  Yeah i defend him from statements that 'he's been ass for 2 years' or 'he does nothing to help the team win'  Those are extreme statements for a guy who basically leads the team in about every category.   Friggin Bogi and Hunter are barely out rebounding him.

But to your point the whole team has underperformed this year with the exception of maybe OO and AJ in terms of expectations. 

I've been as down as can be on the Hawks team this year and i put a lot of blame on Trae.  But it can't all be Trae.  The other players have to perform.  He can't shoot the ball for them.  He can't make them rebound.   He can't force them to be more aggressive.   There's elevating and there's carrying.  Trae isn't a guy who's going to carry a team.  

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

The entire he lead the league in turnovers is a terrible argument though.

As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not my argument -- it's a data point that supports my argument.  His assist:turnover ratio is suffering from bad decision making.  Also, I was looking at a per game basis, not totals as Diesel keeps citing.  

[marco102]

9 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not my argument -- it's a data point that supports my argument.  His assist:turnover ratio is suffering from bad decision making.  Also, I was looking at a per game basis, not totals as Diesel keeps citing.  

assist:turnover takes out game to game variance.  I get the gist of what you're saying, but Trae has a fairly good assist to to turnover ratio.  Anything above 2 is good imo. 

What make him such a good playmaker is his willingness to make those great passes.  We don't want to take that away from him either.  Playmaking is his best trait.  You have to take the good with the bad and hope for improvement.

Edited April 17, 2023 by marco102

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

As I mentioned in my previous post, this is not my argument -- it's a data point that supports my argument.  His assist:turnover ratio is suffering from bad decision making.  Also, I was looking at a per game basis, not totals as Diesel keeps citing.  

It is a data point that should not be divorced from where the team ranks against all other teams in turnovers per game, imo.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

assist:turnover takes out game to game variance.  I get the gist of what you're saying, but Trae has a fairly good assist to to turnover ratio.  Anything above 2 is good imo. 

What make him such a good playmaker is his willingness to make those great passes.  We don't want to take that away from him either.  Playmaking is his best trait.  You have to take the good with the bad and hope for improvement.

Agree.  He can improve and that would help but his shooting being better is what would massively help not a 10% improvement in turnovers or something.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

also, I was looking at a per game basis, not totals as Diesel keeps citing.  

Will the players change if we move from per to total?  How does this make anything that we have been saying different?  I told @JeffS17 to try again...  Is this really his next try??

 

 

Really Jeff??

The per totals just bring the MVP candidates a little closer. 

 

[marco102]

19 minutes ago, AHF said:

Agree.  He can improve and that would help but his shooting being better is what would massively help not a 10% improvement in turnovers or something.

I too am way more concerned about his shooting. If you look at his career thus far, he's up and down with his three point shooting every other year.  next year, he'll probably be around 40% based off those trends.

Edited April 17, 2023 by marco102

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

His assist:turnover ratio is suffering from bad decision making.

A little math here...  These are Trae last three years...

2023   741/300 = 2.47

2022   737/303 = 2.43

2021   594/261 = 2.27

So.. His A/TO is actually improving?  Wow.

But you're here because of the suffering...  OK...

Luka...  for you Luka Stans...

2023  529/236 = 2.21

Alright.. What about Ja...

2023  493/206 = 2.39

So let's review @JeffS17

You say that Trae's assist/TO ration is suffering from bad decision making ... which may be true...   He could do a lot better...

BUT

He's doing better than Luka and Ja which are his contemporaries.   Moreover, he's doing better than he has in previous years...

What is your argument?

 

[Diesel]

22 minutes ago, marco102 said:

ou have to take the good with the bad and hope for improvement.

The thing is that Trae gets his turnovers on Bad passes and Not Loss Balls.   He's way down on the lost balls list.  What that tells me is that his turnovers are a result of him trying to do something because he's scorer and facilitator.  Yes, we'd like to see it come down... but like you said, it comes with the territory. 

 

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I too am way more concerned about his shooting. If you look at his career thus far.  He's up and down with his three point shooting.  next year, he'll probably be around 40% based off those trends.

Last game, he missed the floater and when he came down... he looked at his hand like What  Just happened?

I have concerns because he's missing shots that he normally hits... and I don't want him to lose his confidence.   I really think that we have moved far away from the 1-5 pick and roll this year.   I know we still run it on occasion but it has all but disappeared from our offense.   I just hope that whatever is next enhances his abilities as a play maker and a scorer. 

 

[JeffS17]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

It is a data point that should not be divorced from where the team ranks against all other teams in turnovers per game, imo.

Agreed, and we shouldn't divorce what we see on the court from what we see on the stats sheets.  Everywhere has addressed the stats and contorted arguments to soften the criticism, but Trae has been objectively making way too many risky passes/drives and generally not playing well.  His shot has been super rushed (layups and jumpers) too which is concerning.  He's forcing too much.  He needs to take a breath and relax and let the game come to him.  That's when he's best

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

What is your argument?

 

My eyes watching him play.  Are you happy with how he's playing?

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Agreed, and we shouldn't divorce what we see on the court from what we see on the stats sheets.  Everywhere has addressed the stats and contorted arguments to soften the criticism, but Trae has been objectively making way too many risky passes/drives and generally not playing well.  His shot has been super rushed (layups and jumpers) too which is concerning.  He's forcing too much.  He needs to take a breath and relax and let the game come to him.  That's when he's best

My eyes watching him play.  Are you happy with how he's playing?

Your eyes can deceive you... especially when you have an "Agenda".   Yes, Trae can get better at things... But the STATS show that his A/TO that you are so worried about has improved over the last three years... DID Your eyes tell you that?

The Stats show that his A/TO is the same as his contemporaries who play the same way...  i.e. Luka and Ja.

Now... what I would hope... is that he can get his turnovers in the range of Chris Paul.   But Chris Paul has never been a scorer like Trae. 

I would hope that he could get more like James Harden.   But Trae doesn't have an Embiid down low sucking up gravity. 

The thing that makes it hard for guard led teams to win chips... Is not size...

It's gravity and injury. 

That's something that we have to be concerned about. 

However,   we got to understand gravity.   When you have the gravity that Trae carries,  it helps to have somebody who can take some of that gravity away.   That's what we hoped we were getting with DJ... and though the fit is not perfect yet, it's coming along.   Hell it took Tatum and Brown 6 seasons together before they learned how to play together.   And Brown had to learn how to score and make impact without the ball.  That's what we're working through. 

So again, Trae makes mistakes.. and if you're only using the eye test, you will find every fault.  BUT... comparatively... he's not as bad as your eyes say.

 

 

 

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Now... what I would hope... is that he can get his turnovers in the range of Chris Paul.   But Chris Paul has never been a scorer like Trae. 

He will never be in the range of Chris Paul unless he starts scoring like Chris Paul.  Paul has taken 11.3 shots per game the last two years.  That means he is a relative non-factor as a scorer unlike Trae, Ja, Luka, Giannis, Jokic and the other turnover leaders.  I don't hope for him to be in the range of Paul because it is apples to oranges until Trae is taking 11 shots a game or Paul is taking closer to 20 FGA/gm.  

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Are you happy with how he's playing?

No...  I hate that his shot is not falling.

But what does make me happy is that we have a 26/10 player in a Hawks Jersey who has shown that he can win in the playoffs. 

What does make me happy is that we have somebody who is not afraid of the moment. 

What does make me happy is that for once, we have a leader who is not a nonaggressive leader. 

So... if he makes mistakes while being those things..  I'm not happy about it but  I wouldn't trade him either. 

I have been a Hawks fan since 75...   I have been waiting for somebody to come along who could make us relevant like Nique did.  Now we have somebody who has taken us farther than Nique has.. farther than we have ever been before (Atlanta Hawks) and we have a smattering of fans who want to trade him away because he's not perfect. 

Hell to the Nawl.

I believe we owe it to all the fans like me who patiently waited while Babcock traded Nique for Manning...  While  Babcock bungled another draft pick... While We made a playoff promise with Lon Kruger coaching...  While Ferry Bungled another draft pick.. and while Travis traded away players for money... to see if Trae can get us back to relevance if he has good players around him. 

 

[AHF]

19 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Agreed, and we shouldn't divorce what we see on the court from what we see on the stats sheets.  Everywhere has addressed the stats and contorted arguments to soften the criticism, but Trae has been objectively making way too many risky passes/drives and generally not playing well.  His shot has been super rushed (layups and jumpers) too which is concerning.  He's forcing too much.  He needs to take a breath and relax and let the game come to him.  That's when he's best

My eyes watching him play.  Are you happy with how he's playing?

I think we would be fine with the turnovers if he was scoring efficiently because that would mean the Hawks were turning the ball over less often than their opponents.  We had 11 turnovers to Boston's 16 in Game 1.  That is fine.  What isn't fine is that Trae shot 28% / 20% and the team shot 39% / 17%.

[JeffS17]

17 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Your eyes can deceive you... especially when you have an "Agenda". 

This is where I tune you out.

 

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think we would be fine with the turnovers if he was scoring efficiently because that would mean the Hawks were turning the ball over less often than their opponents.  We had 11 turnovers to Boston's 16 in Game 1.  That is fine.  What isn't fine is that Trae shot 28% / 20% and the team shot 39% / 17%.

Agreed.  His 3P shooting is by far his biggest issue -- I only touched on the TOs (but then Diesel made the whole conversation about them) because if you want to beat elite teams, you have to clean up your floor game as well.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

You look at his face in this interview and tell me do you see somebody who is thinking about playing beyond this series. 

I BS you not!

 

Don't read too much into that Diesel.  That's Ja feeling sorry for himself.

The actual team though is used to playing without Ja, and playing at a high level.

JJJ is the leader of that team now.  Dillon Brooks is the fake tough guy.  And Tyus Jones is the less flashy but more efficient option at PG.

As long as they can make up for the points that they lose with Ja out, Memphis will be just fine.

Can't say that about the Hawks though.  If we just lose one key rotation player, the wheels come completely off the wagon.

 

Unless it's Dre.

 

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

This is where I tune you out.

What do you call it then @JeffS17

1. I mean you start on this campaign against Trae's turnovers...
2. as you see the numbers.. (present and historic). You change it to... Turnovers per....
3. Then it becomes  his A/TO  ratio is being killed by his bad decision making...
4. Next... It's   The stats don't mean as much as the eye test...

Now... that I point out that you have consciously and consistently been trying to find something wrong with Trae...  "This is where I tune you out."   It's the same ole line Jeff.   If people can not agree with your exact stance against Trae then they are a Trae Stan...   If people prove your argument ineffective using stats... then the stats are a problem.  And when all else fails...  ignore ignore ignore...

I thought this was supposed to be about dialogue. 

Notice.. I don't think that there's anybody who hasn't said that Trae makes mistakes...  I think we all have said that.  I don't think that there's anybody who has said that Trae is perfect just the way he is.. I think we all have mentioned things we would like to see Trae Change or Improve.  But what's the need to go beyond that?  What Seek ye?

Bottom Line, you can find enough mistakes in Trae's game to have to pin your hopes on Turnovers.   You make the same mistake that Skip Bayless and the Media makes in trying to use that... It doesn't say what they want it to say.  It puts him in a class of other players who scores the ball a lot and tries to make things happen. ... not in the class of people who can't make good reads, can't make good passes.. and often lose the ball.   If that's what you want, DJ is better at that than Trae.