Hawks and Kenyon Martin?

[ATLien_]

Well like I said Im not a fan of giving him the max, but it looks like rather we like it or not he will get the max from someone. He is the second best free agent in this years class, and the best big man. The market has decided that he will get the max, so if we want him thats what we will have to pay. Unless he just really wants to come to Atlanta and will take less.

I really like the idea of Etan Thomas or Swift at PF. Plus we have the high school Pf on the summer team that has good potential.

If Utah signs Martin we should offer them JT for Humphries and Harpring. The we could sign Alston to start at PG. Do you think they would bite?

[Wretch]

He's gone after the season and he's our asset. So the reasoning was give him up for nothing, or hold on to him for another season to see if we could get something.

With K-Mart, it's only about the length of our commitment to him. I LIKE HIS GAME! He would be an absolute PERFECT compliment to this team...but that could change in the coming years as could his ceiling. At which time, we'd be saddled with the next player who's salary continually pops up in the dump list. I'm sure the Knicks thought Houston was the perfect fit and I'm sure Miami thought Brian Grant would get them over the hump...

While I am torn on K-mart, I just don't think I'd drop all that money on him. MAYBE at a deal starting around 9 - 10...but I don't know.

[jezmund]

I can totally sympathize with you about Brian Grant. I'm still torn btw whether I'd throw the Max at K-Mart, yet. The thing is, I think K-Mart is a much better player than Brian Grant was when he received his contract. Him and Eddie Jones were also 2-3 years older than K-Mart is when they received their big contracts. I guess what I'm trying to say is that K-Mart does change the game with the way he plays. I don't think Brian Grant is/was ever at that level. K-Mart is a great athlete whom is still developing his skills. He definitely has not reached his ceiling, yet. He can continue to polish his mid-range jumpshot and improve his ball handling a little. He is still relatively young, 25-26? We'd have him til he was about 31-32 which is when most players notice their skills start to fall a little.

[TnDawg]

Can someone tell me more about whether Okur is a restrictive or unrestrictive FA. If so many of you think it is a waste to offer KMart a Max contract, is it possible to acquire Swift and Okur for similar money or a little bit more. I believe that is what the market will give KMart, and it may be what we have to do in order to start attracting some talented players in order to improve this years playoff chances and more importantly, position ourselves for next years FA pool. After we finally rid ourselves of Hendu/CC we will still have alot of cap room, along with our exemptions for next year.In Okur and Swift we will strenghten our inside play( at least defensively) and after we pick up a veteran point guard , I would be happy with our team at this stage, for the upcoimg season.

[jaywalker72]

Okur is an Early Bird, restricted free agent, meaning the Pistons can only go up to the mid level exception to match an offer. That is unless the Pistons renounce the rights to Rasheed Wallace, thereby freeing up some cap space and allowing the Pistons to go higher in matching an offer.

The Pistons are not expected to renounce Wallace's rights.

[sturt]

...might help that signing to come to pass(?).

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Can someone tell me more about whether Okur is a restrictive or unrestrictive FA. If so many of you think it is a waste to offer KMart a Max contract, is it possible to acquire Swift and Okur for similar money or a little bit more. I believe that is what the market will give KMart, and it may be what we have to do in order to start attracting some talented players in order to improve this years playoff chances and more importantly, position ourselves for next years FA pool. After we finally rid ourselves of Hendu/CC we will still have alot of cap room, along with our exemptions for next year.In Okur and Swift we will strenghten our inside play( at least defensively) and after we pick up a veteran point guard , I would be happy with our team at this stage, for the upcoimg season.

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[Diesel]

Trading JT doesn't justify picking up Martin, but if we get a bettter PG, then Maybe picking up Kmart would be a good thing.

Here's the deal. I like Kmart's energy, I like his defense, I like his attitude (even though some would call him a thug.). He's big on winning.

But, I don't see JT being able to make Kmart as good as Kidd did. Remember, Kmart gets a lot of his points on the fast break. He's not a midrange PF and his Low Post game isn't that strong. Whereas, JT can't finish a break 1/2 the time. I just see this as a Huge Mistake.

However, if we got somebody here that can run a fast break and do all the little things, maybe Kmart would work out. Bottom Line, Kmart is a complimentary player, not the cheif Cornerstone of the building. But I guess we are a team that needs the name recognition.

In my heart, I would much rather trade JT for Harrington/Pollard, Harrington for Nelson/Gooden and Picku up Foyle/Anderson/Arroyo (or Ward) in FAcy.

[Nicholasp27]

if we coulda just gotten the #3 pick and drafted livingston, then kmart would be perfect...he could come here to play with the next kidd

[TheDude]

Harrington is a SF..we have 457 small forwards on our team.. i'd like to have harrington but he just doesn't fit..

as a team that sucks, we are going to have to spend big money to attract a big free agent. it's just a question of if martin is the one to start it off with.

[Final_quest]

I agree that bringing in high price FAs is a dangerous thing. When you look at Eddie Jones, Brian Grant, Allen Houston, and others it's not pretty. However the worst contracts in the league were signed under the old CBA. These players would not be able to get those contracts in this era. Cut Houston's contract in half and it doesn't seem so bad. Many of the current bad contracts under the new CBA are Keith Van Horn, Tim Thomas, Grant Hill, and other mediocre players that got the max deal. These are the worst case scenarios for Kmart. It would be bad, but not as bad as a nightmare contract like Houston who makes over 20 million per.

Also, I would like to point that max contracts are not just for the elite top five players anymore. Shaq and Garnett are making around $30 million per under the old CBA. Still teams would line up to trade for either player, even though they are essentially two max contracts in one. Now that being said, why wouldn't the Hawks offer Kmart $11 million? If KG is worth $30 million, Martin is certainly worth 11.

I hear people on this board saying stuff like we should sign Swift and Foyle to save money. Is that really saving that much? If we signed both of those players the total would be pretty close to one max contract. So we get Lorenzen Wright's backup, and Foyle who has a career avg. of about 4.3 points and 2.5 rebs. Yet Martin is way overpriced. I'm sorry I don't think so. Think of all the players in this league that make more than Martin would at $11 million: Stackhouse, Walker, SAR, and Ratliff come to mind. Surely, unless Martin gets a career ending injury it would not totally blow up in our face. Like I said before Martin will get a max deal, and the Hawks would be so lucky to be the team that signs him.

[Diesel]

I wouldn't keep Harrington at all. he doesn't fit as you said...

My plan:

Atlanta trade JT/2nd to Indy.

Indy trades Harrington to Orlando.

Atlanta gets Pollard/Nelson/and Gooden....

The reason I would do this is because #1, I like Gooden and he is exactly what we need at Pf even if it's BU PF. #2, I like Nelson also.

Gooden 6'10 242... He runs very well, he has very good size, he average 12, 6.5 in 27 mpg last season.

The questions, would Indy do it... I think so. I might even be inclined to give them a protected Pick in 2007 if the 2nd isn't enough.

Would Orl do it. I think so. Harrington is just what they need:

Francis/Mobley/Harrington/Howard/_____

That's a playoff team.

Can Nelson be the PG of the future?

I think he can. I would pickup Arroyo just in case, But I like nelson.

Nelson/childress/Diaw/Gooden/Foyle...

With Mike Brown as Coach.

[TheDude]

actually, not only would i do that, but i'd do that in a heartbeat.

pollard could be a solid b/u center.. gooden at pf(but he MUST be taught to pass the ball)..

and nelson as point of the future.

[Wretch]

Whether it's 8 million for Hendu, 7 million for Mo Taylor, 3 million for Chris Crawford, or 16 million to Alan Houston. It's a waste of a precious cap space. Big spending teams that are looking to go over the top can afford to take on contracts like that. These are teams that are pretty much set and know exactly what they need. For a team trying to rebuild, the last thing that you want to do is hand someone a max contract without knowing that they are indeed a max player.

Regardless of what teams were paying under the old CBA, the new agreement has set a limit on player salaries. This maximum salary currently eats up 1/4 of a team's yearly payroll - that's a huge chunk. You don't pay that to good players, you pay that for great players. Unless the league agrees during negotions to eliminate that cap on player salaries, this isn't going to change. KG might be making upwards of 28 million per year, but that doesn't change his value to a team under the new CBA. If KG were the same player, hell even if he averaged 50 ppg and 20 rpg, if he were drafted into the new CBA he will get no more than the league max. Bottom line: Kenyon Martin isn't worth half of 30 million and KG, regardless of his ridiculous deal (that sparked changes in the CBA), would get no more than the league maximum now.

All that being said, regardless of how much cap space they have, the Hawks are not in a position to overpay for free agents. We need to build this team, draft wisely, develop our talent, and approach free agency cautiously - unless there is a sure thing available for the max. There are very few players that are worth a maxium salary and right now, Kenyon Martin is not one of them.

[Lascar78]

We all know we're not winning this season. To me the question is, how confident are we that we can get a top FA next year if we don't get one this year. If we are confident that all our youth, cash, and the city are enough to attract FA's next summer, screw KMart. If we don't think that's the case and having him here will really help us recruit in the future, it's worth considering. I think we can all agree that he's not worth the max. But that's not even the issue anymore.

For a rebuilding club like ours, getting the first significant FA to sign is always the hardest part. I'm not sure how I feel about KMart, and FOR ONCE, I'm glad I'm not the one making the decision.

[Packfill]

A bad contract can really hinder a team's flexibility. That I agree with. But I am on the fence as to whether a max contract to Kenyon makes sense. My question is this, what are the Hawks saving all that 19 million for? Even if the Hawks signed Martin for the max they likely will have enough money left over to sign another max deal, especially next year when Henderson and Crawford come off the books and Terry becomes very tradeable. If we agree that only the truely elite players are worth the max, then newsflash, there are not any available this year and there likely will not be any available next year - at least without a team in place. We are not getting Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, McGrady, Jermaine O'Neil, or Lebron. Now add to that the fact that the Hawks have no one to play power forward, no one. It is a desparate need. Martin fits exactly into the mold of what the hawks want and need - young, athletic, defensive minded and aggressive. Eton Thomas and Stromile Swift are the only two other players who are available that come even close to fitting those requirements. Neither has Martin's game. Swift has the athletic ability but so far has not demonstrated the heart or head. Thomas seems to have the heart but is not the athletic equal of the other two.

Personally, I rather overspend for one really good player than two mediocre ones.

I think, if other teams are willing to give K-Mart the max, I would too. He is a good fit on the court and is a good fit from a marketing standpoint as well.

[Final_quest]

EDS you sum up the situation very well. To Mr. Wrench I understand your hesitation, but don't compare Martin to Alan Henderson or even SAR. We have a desperate need here in Atlanta not just for talent, but also for community interest. If we sign Swift or Thomas they are both commanding at the very least the MLE, I think they will get over that. Don't you think those could be bad contracts as well? So if we don't sign them then we have a front court of stiffs for the year, and highly inexperienced wing players. I'm excited about our draft picks and Diaw, but these guys are learning on the job. Next year who will want to come to the Hawks as a FA? The Hawks have to do something as a franchise. They need to sell tickets and jerseys, as well as build a winning team.

It is debateable whether or not Kmart is worth the max, but for our situation I think we have to do it. He is a position of great need, and seems to fit in to the style of play we are building for. Next year we won't win a championship by any means, but maybe in 3-4 years we could be playing for one. All of those top players like KG, Duncan, Kobe, and O'neal are not coming to Atlanta anytime soon. Kmart maybe isn't a cornerstone of a franchise, but we need to make Atlanta a place that players want to come to. I just don't think that signing Lorenzen Wright's backup, Swift, is going to help in that department. Signing a big name player to a big deal says to the league, and the fans, we want to compete and we want to win.

And for those who think signing Kmart is being excessive, please tell me who you want to bring in and for how much? I think you would embarass yourself answering that question.

[TheDude]

i say one positive thing that would come out of getting Kmart is that I think he would have the potential to really blow up on his offensive game...

think about it.. just like jax was needed more the last half of last season and he responded, kmart would be needed to score more also, so he would really have to focus on that..

i would be happy any way it swung.

[hawkster411]

I say sign Kmart close to the max...

The Hawks will be in the lottery next year; however, the catch is that Hendu and C.Crawford will be off the books.

If we sign KMart, NBA players will know that the Hawks are serious about building an NBA contender. By next year, we're looking at...

1. Lottery pick (Top 5)

2. KMart

3. Caproom to sign a franchise player

4. The Unknown factor...Childress or either Smith's will emerge into an all-star(s).

If BK did is homework and let's say our rookies develop into all-star caliber players. We're looking at having 3 or maybe 4 all-stars in Childress, K-Mart, J.Smith, and Ray Allen.

Let's not forget that BK has the flexibility to trade a combination of Philly's 1st round pick and/or current players.

[TheDude]

i think we'd win more than people expect...maybe get the 9th pick.

[Wretch]

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To Mr. Wrench I understand your hesitation,

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Wretch.

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but don't compare Martin to Alan Henderson or even SAR. We have a desperate need here in Atlanta not just for talent, but also for community interest.

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So, what you are saying is that the decision to make a major free agent acquistion should in our case be based mostly on desperation.

I understand the need to spark interest in a team with no identity. Though I question how desperate we are. For sure, there has been little interest in this team for quite a while; yet, you can not convince me that 2 or 3 more years without Kenyon Martin is going to significantly damage our forgotten franchise. You can not convince me that it will really matter if we don't turn things around right now. I'm not convinced that K-Mart is anything more than a complimentary player, that he can carry our franchise, or that he is worth investing 1/4th of our payroll into. Will he get better? That is the gamble that you drop a max dime on, but not one that we desperately need to.

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If we sign Swift or Thomas they are both commanding at the very least the MLE, I think they will get over that. Don't you think those could be bad contracts as well?

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True enough. But this is also a MUCH smaller gamble than a max contract. It's easier to swallow now, still leaves MUCH flexibility, and is easier to move later on.

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So if we don't sign them then we have a front court of stiffs for the year, and highly inexperienced wing players.

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That's why it's called rebuilding. The project is never as pretty as the finished production. I could give a sh#t less what this team looks like over the next couple of years as long as the talent that we acquire shows promising development.

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I'm excited about our draft picks and Diaw, but these guys are learning on the job. Next year who will want to come to the Hawks as a FA?

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Well, taking into account not signing KMart, not having our rookies, or next year's rookie(s), we would have the exact same team as this year. So if our chances right now are good or even decent at landing a marquee free agent (as we are suggesting KMart is) then our chances would be exactly the same next year.

But who knows how this club will develop next year? Who knows who we might sign in free agency... Who knows how good our next coach (Woodson?) is going to be? So chances are, we could be a much better team next year, which would actually make us a more attractive team to free agents than we are currently.

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The Hawks have to do something as a franchise. They need to sell tickets and jerseys, as well as build a winning team.

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This is not going to happen over night. That's what the rebuilding process is for - and why the analogy was made to turning a ship around. Sometimes it is best to swing it wide, rather than try to make the sharp 180. Throwing a max contract at KMart is an act of desperation that may or may not pay off. I wouldn't gamble a fourth of our payroll on it.

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It is debateable whether or not Kmart is worth the max, but for our situation I think we have to do it. He is a position of great need, and seems to fit in to the style of play we are building for.

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KMart would definitely fit here, no question; but he is not currently worth a max contract...not to us. We have our own players to groom and develop; eventually, we'll have to pay for them too. At which time we'll be limited in our flexibility with them and if KMart does not become a cornerstone then we are saddled with his salary and excluded from acquiring the big ticket that we KNOW we'll need then.

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All of those top players like KG, Duncan, Kobe, and O'neal are not coming to Atlanta anytime soon. Kmart maybe isn't a cornerstone of a franchise, but we need to make Atlanta a place that players want to come to.

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IF we have the money available to do that after signing rookies, free agents, and Kenyon Martin to a MAX deal. The better route for us would be to put faith into the players that we drafted and pursue guys that could be special that we DON'T have to drop a max dime on. And who knows? We might have drafted or might draft the next top player that everyone wants to play with...I'd like to have as much money available as we can at that time.

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I just don't think that signing Lorenzen Wright's backup, Swift, is going to help in that department. Signing a big name player to a big deal says to the league, and the fans, we want to compete and we want to win.

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We don't know what Swift will be any more than we know what KMart will be. We do know how much it will cost us in both situations. Regardless, until we start playing the games that matter it doesn't matter WHO we pursue in the post.

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And for those who think signing Kmart is being excessive, please tell me who you want to bring in and for how much? I think you would embarass yourself answering that question.

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The point is not for us to win next season. It would be great, it would be positive, it would attract attention. Realistically, we are rebuilding and we can't expect these guys to go out and bring us an 8 seed. So honestly, it wouldn't matter if we put a scarecrow down there in the post. We can't spend like we are going over the top either. That would be a mistake.

With all that being said, there are guys out there that will command much less than a max contract. Most of the names have already been discussed, Swift, Okur, Foyle, Dampier... We've got guys that we can throw down in the post too in Collier and Pryz. There are a ton of big bodies that we could sign just for the hell of it, just to get by and even more that we could make a deal for. It's just not neccessary right now to go out and try to build our team of the future in one off-season.

Getting KMart would be an absolute POSITIVE for our franchise. As a player, there is NOTHING wrong with him and I would be ecstatic to watch him play in a Hawks uniform EVEN IF WE PAID THE MAX FOR HIM. But this is nothing more than a case of grocery shopping when you're hungry. In two years there may be MUCH better options for us in the post - it could even be Josh Smith; but we won't know until we get there and I would settle my future on Kenyon Martin not at a maximum salary.