I Really Don't Understand You So -Called Hawk Fans

[d2v16DKG]

Let me understand this. We trade our best player and get nothing in return except for a high first-round draft pick and most of you guys are over-joyed about this. In fact, one so-called Hawk fan comments this is great because we will continue to lose games. Maybe I got it wrong, but I thought a fan roots for their team to win. Yes, I know you're all excited about the draft and cap space but no one's going to want to play for a team that loses all the time. When I first heard about the trade and getting Gary Payton, I thought we were getting a good point guard who can shoot which we sorely need. But now I'm hearing we're looking to buy out his contract so he can sign with someone else. Walker played hard every game and wanted to play here. We should have continued to build around him; but to let him go and get nothing in return is beyond me. I know I'm in a minority among you guys who post all the time, but let me know if at least one other person feels the way I do. If not, I'll shut up and let you guys cheer for our team to lose!!

[Vafan]

Sure, we all like winners. But building this team the right way require patience. Babcock destroy this franchise. We know have "direction" with Billy Knight. With capspace and two first round pick this summer, this team is acquiring young talent. You got the Joshes and Harrington as the building blocks so far. The future is bright.

[Nicholasp27]

ok, so u and i disagree on how BK should be rebuilding the team...fine...that's normal

but why are we 'so-called' hawks fans because we are happy that BK is building the way we want?

the fact that we are following the hawks and cheering for them during the past decade of mediocrity makes us more than 'so-called' fans...

the reason this is a GREAT trade is four-fold:

a) the pick lets us use our first on bogut and then this one on the best available pg (felton/paul/gilchrist/jack/williams/diaz/etc)

b) developing our young guys: not having walker allows al to play his natural pf position and smoove to play full-time at sf...and when al is resting, smoove may even play some pf...it also lets chill play 30mpg to keep getting those double-doubles...

c) we are building a rep with players: it started with new ownership/management/coach...continued with hiring nique and then signing willis...and then we sent theo/sar to a team that had a chance to make playoffs, sent jt to a contender, traded barry to houston, and now sent toine home since we weren't extending him; finally, we are cutting payton so he can play where he wants...so we showed players that we are diff from the aol/babcock era, then we showed players we are building a full lifelong team, like celtics and lakers where players play for then work for and maybe even part-own...then we showed players that we take care of them and accomodate their wishes...

d) if we had won that coin toss with clips or had lost ONE MORE GAME last season, we'd have HOWARD right now...smoove/howard combo would be deadly...we need to lose these games while our young guys continue to develop together so we can get bogut

e) we get to see how chill/smoove/al 3some works as a core...and get to see how al is as a main guy and how he is at pf full-time...this is good for deciding to keep and extend/resign him or else trade him on draft night for another pick...

right now we have the capability to draft bogut and jack...sign swift and hughes and jacobsen...

jack/ivey/diaw

hughes/jacobsen/chill/diaw

chill/donta/smoove/diaw

smoove/swift/bogut

bogut/swift/drobs

plus our other picks and the pick/player we get from harrington...

i know harrington may be a long-term piece, but that just depends on chill/smoove...if they end up being a 3/4, then al has to be 6th man or go...he won't resign for 6th man, so he has to be traded for value...

if they can be a 2/3/4 combo, then al will stay...

[Final_quest]

I appreciate your perspective, but we all remember too many years where we had a mediocre team. Not a bad team, but not a great team. We had to totally wipe that slate clean. Walker is a good player, but he wasn't going to take the Hawks to the next level in the short or long run. His salary was about 25% of our payroll or more. A player has to be a superstar to take up that much of your payroll for your team to be successful. We all want the Hawks to win, but we have to sacrifice some short term pain in order to get a strongly built team. Any team can bring in overpaid good but not great players and be a mediocre team. Ask the Knicks they have enough for two teams, and they still lose. We have to do this the right way.

[Diesel]

Being a Kings fan you understand that there's a window for a team. After you have missed your window, you rebuild. Well, we have been rebuilding since Smitty, Mookie, Deke, and Long lost to NY in the playoffs of a strike year.

We have rebuilt wrong with JJ, JR, and JT...

Now, we have started to rebuild right with Smoove and Chillz.

In order for us to continue, we have to bring in more talent.

About Walker....

Yes, Walker was a very good player, BUT... I think we would not have traded him unless we knew that the only way he would stay is if we had given him an extension on a 14.9 million dollar contract.

So, instead of losing him for nothing in 3 months, we lost him and got back a first round pick now. In the process, of losing him, we somewhat guarantee that our own pick will be higher.

You might not understand it, but there is some compensation in all this. Just like last year for our efforts we got Chillz and Smoove. Who's to say what this yr will bring. However, the good news is that now we are rebuilding with a plan...

[Nicholasp27]

btw, we all want the hawks to win every game for the next decade...

the problem is, we know that won't come close to happening unless we properly rebuild...

so we are saying "lose the battle (this season) and win the war"

we CANNOT make the playoffs at this point...it's impossible...so why win and lose bogut/williams...

btw, we DO all want for us to lose by 1 every night in overtime...we want the core to play great and develop immensely and be competitive each game...but then get the L at the end of the night...

[TheDude]

YAAAY GO TEAM!!!! WIN ANOTHER SO WE CAN THAT 8 PICK INSTEAD OF NUMBER ONE PICK!!! GO TEAM!! WE'LL ALWAYS BE JUST BELOW AVERAGE AND NEVER GOOD!!JUST LIKE THE LAST 5 YEARS!!! YAAAAAYY!

man, be real..you KNOW we don't like our team losing. if we did, we wouldn't be spending all this time on this messageboard now would we...and you also KNOW that us losing and getting a higher pick is key to us turning the whole franchise around so we aren't like all these other teams spending all this money on freeagents, ala Babcock...we need the young players to play hard and give it their all but no need to bring in a player who is not part of our long term goals for no reason whatsoever than to win a couple extra games, essentially being detrimental to some degree to the future..

IF you were a true fan you would know that the fans, the organization, and the players deserve better..

[Lascar78]

The attitude can best be summed up with this question:

Are you glad that the Sura crew went on a win streak during the second half of the season last year?

Yes it made some of us feel good, and resulted in us getting the 6th pick. It cost us a top pick, say howard or okafor. It did not help us sign any free agents. Would you prefer to have howard or okafor right now, or do you think it was more important to win the extra games last year? I for one wanted us to tank last year and want us to tank this year. If we had tanked last year we might be a playoff team this year. It needs to happen at some point, and I for one want it to be over as quick as possible so we can move on to being winners. Real winners. Not mediocre winners like NY who are screwed for the future.

[Admin]

All I could think about when reading his post was damn are we gonna go through this discussion again? Same situation as last year, but this year Knight is going to make sure that we are as bad as possible so that we get our choice of players. I doubt we end up with the #1 pick, but I would assume that top 3 is pretty much a lock which I am okay with because IMO there are 3 sure fire cant miss stars in this draft with Bogut, Paul, and Williams. I would be happy with any of the 3 with our top pick.

[emeans]

I concur...BK is rebuilding with a plan and I really like what he is doing. Sometimes you have to go all the way to the bottom in order to come back up and get better or you can continue to be average year in and year out (Hawks of the 90s).

BK has decided to TOTALLY rebuild and he is doing a good job so far.

[sick_five]

I completely understand the underlying reason behind this thread. As fans, we should want our team to win, and I do. I want the Hawks to win... this year.

I'd love the Hawks to have the first pick, so that BK can choose whomever he wishes. But let's remember something. With picks 6 and 17, he got Chillz and Smoove. SMOOVE at 17! There is great talent in the draft beyond the first pick. And don't forget, the team with the worst record is NEVER guaranteed to get the first pick with the lottery system.

I truly appreciate Walker's effort here, and I will root for him in Boston. I do think the trade was necessary, however, to give out young guys more PT and allow BK to stockpile more talent. But that doesn't mean these guys HAVE to lose every night! C'mon guys... our young players need to adopt a winning mentality. They need to go out there every night busting balls and win as many games as they can. What is going to attract FAs to Atlanta more than young talent showing growth and promise by winning some games? Not the first pick in the draft.

Woodson and Knight are not planning to lose every game. You never do that. You can never "accept" losing. You learn from it and apply that knowledge in trying to win the next game. I'll promise you one thing... if this young team goes out there and wins some meaningful games in the second half, the confidence that results from that will go a long way towards the next couple of seasons. I know that realistically, this team probably isn't going to win many games, but it doesn't mean that I'm not going to root for them to win.

What I'm hoping for: I want to see our draft picks get lots of time. I want to see those guys making plays all over the court. I want to see the Hawks WIN. And, I want to see Atlanta's luck finally change, and move up a few spots in the lottery to claim the first pick.

[Admin]

so that we can draft someone who may or may not turn out to be a good player. There is plenty of talent after the top 3 guys, but you cant sit here and say for one second that you would rather have Childress over Okafor or Howard, at least not honestly. Last seasons winning had ZERO bearing on our performance this year, it had ZERO bearing on us signing FAs as well. Repeating last years exciting finish would only cause us to miss getting one of the top 3 players, which we cannot afford to do. Just remember that for every Childress drafted 6th, there are 3 Dermarr Johnsons drafted 6th that turn out to be busts. Many of us that were here last year had this discussion only to be called not real fans by many on here. Well if thats what we are to be called again this year, then so be it. I am sure many have come over to the dark side after seeing what it cost us last year and we would be happy to be called non-fans in order to get Bogut, Paul, or Williams.

[Wretch]

Man do I love hearing how people are in support of us falling down, so that we can get back up. Long before I posted here on the Squawk, I used to tell people this is what was neccessary.

Oh, they responded with "all we need is that SF and we'll...(insert diluded expectation here)" Man did I hate the Babcock years. He truly catered to that idea of win at every cost...and it cost us a chance at picking up a true star.

Some people just don't get it though. The bottom line is that you cannot expect to draw free agents, draw fans, and win without the stars of the NBA. It just doesn't happen. The stars of the NBA are found 1 - 13 in the draft and the higher you are the better. Not because there is better talent, but because you get to choose the guy you truly want or have the best leverage to get him.

But, I was a nut for suggesting we take the low road. I wasn't a true fan of the team (regardless of my umpteen years of game by game devotion)...and I truly didn't understand basketball economics.

I'd like to talk to some of those cats now. Now that it can be clearly seen how Babcrock drowned our franchise in mediocrity for over a decade and got fired for it. I'd like to see them in 3 or 4 years when these guys that we are drafting are the talk of the NBA.

[sick_five]

First things first...I haven't called anyone a non-fan.

Secondly, let's look at this year's situation in comparison with last years. Last season, the Hawks had not set a foundation for their team with young talent. This year they have in Childress, Smith, and Harrington. If our young guys start winning THIS SEASON, it bodes very well for our future.

Lastly, just because we lose, doesn't mean we will get the first pick. And if we do win some games, it doesn't mean we won't. I know that this team probably will win very few games. But I will be rooting for them to win and get lucky in the lottery. Because even if you root for them to lose, you'll have to hope they aren't unlucky come draft time.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

Woodson and Knight are not planning to lose every game. You never do that. You can never "accept" losing.

---

First off, I don't expect the coach to try to lose. If that was the case, you could keep Walker and do the same thing. The GM puts the team in a losing situation. The coaches and players still need to be working their butts off. But hopefully, there is not enough depth for us to win anything.

[TheRedStripes]

well actually if you lose the most games, theres no way you can possibly get a pick lower than 3rd overall... usually i mean not always but more times than not, the top 3 picks are a lot better than the 6th pick or so, and in all reality, unless the hawks just have the worst luck ever, which they very well may have, they will probably AT THE VERY LEAST get a 1 or 2 pick if they have the worst record...

I want Bogut or Marvin Williams...if the hawks pick 1 or 2 they can get one of those guys for sure

I used to post over on the ESPN board, and i made a few posts about how the hawks have to start losing instead of staying mediocre a couple years ago, thank god they finally are doing this, id rather have a couple terrible years and build a good team rather than stay mired in mediocrity forever

[TheDude]

i hope players who are free agents don't just look at the team's record. i would hope they would be in the NBA circle of knowledge that a franchise is a turnaround franchise. That they have good young talent. If anything the slamdunk contest brought that possibility to our franchise.

Also the fact that Charles Barkely made that comment yesterday also shows that people know we are on the rise.

And players understand that rookies make mistakes and a franchise can have a bad record because of that.

[CBAreject]

I posted this same subject line a week ago.

I think the other posters have given enough perspective on why we want to lose by 1 point every night, but let me give you just a touch more:

NEARLY EVERY TEAM THAT HAS PLAYED IN THE NBA FINALS FOR THE LAST 25 YEARS HAS DRAFTED AT LEAST ONE STAR IN THE LOTTERY. THE WIDE MAJORITY OF THOSE TEAMS PICKED ONE TOP 3. The exceptions are the Lakers who signed Shaq and trade for Kobe, and the Suns, who traded for Barkley and KJ. We are not the Lakers and can't attract the best player in the league to sign with us. Therefore, we must draft our best player.

Here's a partial list back to 1991:

Bulls (Jordan-3, Grant)

Lakers (Magic-1)

Trailblazers (Drexler, Porter)

Suns (Kevin Johnson)

Rockets (Olajuwon-1)

Knicks (Ewing-1)

Magic (Shaq-1, Hardaway-3)

Sonics (Payton-2)

Jazz (Malone)

Spurs (Duncan-1, Robinson-1)

Pacers (Miller, Davis)

76ers (Iverson-1)

Nets (KMart-1)

*Pistons: they drafted Hill #3 and Stackhouse #2 and traded those for Ben Wallace and Richard Hamilton who became their stars.

How many #1 picks do you need to see in that list before you understand?

[JTFan31]

I understand and we all understand what you are saying, d2v16. I started rooting for this team to win and win and win, once it became obvious that we were going nowhere this year, like alot of us assumed.......then I rather see us lose to get a next superstar.

Why start winning at the end of the season when is clear that you are out of playoff contention?

I wanted the Hawks to keep Toine. In the beginning I wasn't to sure about him, I just didn't like his style of pay, but as the season progressed.....the one thing I noticed was that this guy is a winner, all he wants to do is WIN !!!

He played like a warrior, he played with heart, determination, and desire......that is one thing I admire in a player ala Kevin Garnett.

I wasn't happy with the trade but we all very much assumed it was going to happen....and when it happened we all knew Payton wouldn't wear a Hawks uniform. Thats why we got jipped by this trade.....basically we traded Toine for a 1st round pick.

[ATLJA316]

every year -- each team starts out with just as much chance as the next team....just as much chance to win a championship.

that is what the NBA is all about.

that is the one goal in every fan, player, and even GM's eyes.

it is an ironic situation that MANY teams get put in.

rooting for your team to lose -- i cant say that i ever root for us to lose.

i love every win, yet -- a win is no more than (as previously mentioned) deterioration of our draft.

in recent time, we have come to see that patience is a pretty good way of measuring how good of a fan you are.

those who get more and more excited as the season continues and our L collumn gets bigger and bigger

it is a sign of hope.

things go on, and our loss(s) will eventually be our gain.

the laughing stock of the NBA --cleveland, yeah -- look at em now.

not laughing so much anymore huh?

i know it's wrong to say it was all because of one man -- because it wasnt.

but one guy...one savior came to down, and completely turnd things around. all it took was that hard period of time for CLE, patience, and not giving up -- look what those guys have now.

it's amazing how quickly a franchise can turn around.

i feel that this year is the beginning of a new era for the Atlanta Hawks.

at some point or another, losing is a part of every journey