The One Question that has to be answered is.......

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Al is essentially Wally Szczerbiak.

- a guy who can put the ball in the hole and create his own shot and look damn good at times doing it.

- a guy who is a complete liability on defense, and the other teams ALWAYS know it.

- a guy who most T-Wolves fans are split on, just like we are with Al.

The problem with these two guys, is that both tease the fan base with their stellar offensive play at times. Then they completely let them down with untimely turnovers at the end of games, or matador defense at critical times when you need a stop.

Both have the ability to become stars in the league, they just don't have the work ethic as a whole, to make themselves a better all-around player.

One of the things that keep the T-Wolves from being major players on the free agent market ( outside of KG's ridiculous contract ), are the LONG contracts given to both Troy Hudson and Wally.

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/minnesota.htm

Wally is a good scorer in this league. But is he actually an asset to the Wolves, when he gives just about everything he scores, back to the other team when his man scores on him?

That's the dilemma we face with Al.

And by the way . . . wasn't this the same gripe about Antoine Walker? A guy that has all of the offensive talent in the world, but couldn't play a lick of defense?

So which one would we rather have?

Walker with his multiple offensive capabilities and defensive inefficiencies . .

or . .

Smoove, with his growing, but still sub-par offensive abilities, with his steadily improving defensive capabilities?

[exodus]

Minny is one of several teams facing the same dilema, having backed themselves into a corner making long term commitments to guys who are suspect on D.

The Bucks are screwed, they just don't know it yet. They have a bunch of good players and look good on paper but they can't play D. They have won almost all of their close games and are only 2 games over .500.

Cleveland is in the same boat to a lesser extent. They spent all that money on Hughes, Marshall, Jones and Big Z and what do they have to show for it? 5 games over .500 even with Lebron.

It is just a bad move to make a big financial commitment so a player who doesn't play D.

Contrast that with the teams that win titles. San Antonio has one of the best defenses in the league and again have the best record in the west.

When Detroit won the title they set a record for consecutive games holding opponents under 80.

Even Pheonix jumped on the defensive bandwagon, so much so that they have one of the best defenses in the league in spite of the fact they really don't have anyone taller than 6'10". When Amare comes back they will be lethal.

If they resign Al they are shooting themselves in the foot not because he is holding back the young guys but because he is too much of a liability defensively.

[rascurrein]

For a player to show his full potential, needs a team to support his playing style. Al is ont the spot right now maybe because he is the most experienced player on the team. So everybody start to put stats and numbers of other players in their posts, and i ask them for those players to have those numbers: there was a team behind them or their team was better because of their numbers? The team of those players were playing as bad as the Hawks are doing so far?

We can't judge Al only for his numbers, instead we have to judge him by the way that he is playing in a team that don't deserve be calling as a "team".

The Hawks depends to much on Al's performance with out a build-up-play to support him, the same thing is happening with JJ when Al is on the bench, but the critics are focused on Al 'cause he is the "veteran".

The Hawks needs some team-play, then will be the time to judge individual players.

[bralin1]

Exodus

You are 100% correct about why you don't re-sign guys who don't play defense. AL is so bad it sickens me to watch him because he just doesn't try. Diesel wants to talk about offense...defense wins championships period. When the Hawks get a win it is always because we shoot lights out...we get hot and outscore the opposition. That doesn't cut it. That is also why Woodson needs to be removed now...he doesn't require defense and the players don't respect him.

Move AL to a sucker team looking for a hot and cold one way player. Get us a #1 and/or a good PG. For all of the AL defenders...please understand that there are two sides to the court and he only plays on one. It shouldn't be too difficult to understand.

[Diesel]

Wally = 10 million.

Dirk = 13.8 million.

Peja = 7.6 million.

Pierce = 13.8 million.

Lewis = 8.6 million

Simmons = 8.0 million.

Webber = 19.1 million.

For an average of: 11.56 millon.

You guys came up with 7 guys who average 11.56 million. Right now, Al makes 6.8 million. First, we're getting a bargain. Secondly, if we resigned him for 9 million per, we're still getting a bargain.

[Diesel]

Quote:

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Diesel wants to talk about offense...defense wins championships period.

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Defense wins nothing without offense. Go back... Look over those teams you call champions again...

Notice, the Lakers, the Rockets, the Celtics, etc... It was not their defense that won them championships. It was their offense. Nobody ever celebrated Magic Johnson ability to play man up defense. Hell, Magic is one of the weakest defenders...

[Nicholasp27]

Quote:

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Wally = 10 million.

Dirk = 13.8 million.

Peja = 7.6 million.

Pierce = 13.8 million.

Lewis = 8.6 million

Simmons = 8.0 million.

Webber = 19.1 million.

For an average of: 11.56 millon.

You guys came up with 7 guys who average 11.56 million. Right now, Al makes 6.8 million. First, we're getting a bargain. Secondly, if we resigned him for 9 million per, we're still getting a bargain.

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wow

that's where you were going with this?

justifying paying matador al 9mil?

wow

[Buzzard]

Quote:

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Yeah, let's put Diesel on trial to try to save my failing point.

Your first statement Chillz was wrong.

You say it's a foregone conclusion that in 3 yrs Marvin will match Al's output.

That's not true... nor is tht conclusion forgone.. The truth is that NOBODY Knows what Marvin will be in 3 yrs. It was a forgone conclusion that JT would be a PG in 3 yrs... However, it's 6 yrs later and he's still calling himself a "GUARD'... IT was a foregone conclusion that Darko would be a dominant player in three years... However, I wonder if Darko can even get off the bench in Detroit?

It was a foregone conclusion that Yao would be the most dominate C in the game by now. However, the only thing he dominates is Allstar votes because of Nationalism.

The point is this... All there is is a lot of hope that Marvin and the joshes turn out. However, the truth is that we are just as unsure about them turning out as we were about JT becoming a point guard. It's possible but we don't know for sure.

---

Ahhh, sanity. Something we can disagree on. Freedom of opinion....

Another Diesl redirect....ignoring the fact that you thought Stromolie was someone we should sign to a large contract based soley on what you thought he would eventually do. But no one else should do that because we will be wrong...just as you are with your previous love for Stro...

Exa #2 Deron Williams will in your words be better than Jason Kidd and Chris Paul. So far, very wrong again.... but thats ok for you to do and be wrong but not anyone else...

No one (key two words here is "no one") knows anything for sure...especially when it comes to athletes and how far they will eventually go....if you don't believe me just ask Bo....

Dang that rhymes....

Fact is most of us here are fans and we just want to believe our (team) players will eventually take off and someday be mentioned in the same breath as previous champions.

You may still believe Deron will one day be in the hall just like Kidd but I also believe as strongly today in Marvin's upside as the day we drafted him. Stats= 20 and 10 or somewhere in the vicinity by his 3rd year.

And if you don't agree with that, who gives a #$@#$ anyway. Its not like you cut my check or anything...

[twentythree]

Quote:

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Wally = 10 million.

Dirk = 13.8 million.

Peja = 7.6 million.

Pierce = 13.8 million.

Lewis = 8.6 million

Simmons = 8.0 million.

Webber = 19.1 million.

For an average of: 11.56 millon.

You guys came up with 7 guys who average 11.56 million. Right now, Al makes 6.8 million. First, we're getting a bargain. Secondly, if we resigned him for 9 million per, we're still getting a bargain.

---

Let's talk about that list:

I think everyone is agreed that Wally and Webber are overpaid players. Dirk and Pierce are players that shouldn't be compared with Al. They are out of this world. Al don't even has 1% of their leadership skills.

So let's talk about real:

Memo Okur gets 8.25 million.

His numbers are 17.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 2.6 apg, .9 bpg 46% FG 40% 3PT

Troy Murphy gets 7.36 million.

His numbers are 15.7ppg, 8.7rpg, 1.1 apg, 43% FG, 35 % 3PT

Add Memo's turnovers to Troy's. They are nearly equal to Al's. They are far away better rebounder than him. Their average salary is 7,50 million. Plus, they have longer contracts. Do you think Hawks could sign with Al for a modest 7,50 million? I really don't think that.

And please don't forget that Al is in his contract year. This reason may affect his high output.

So, I choose making a trade rather than overpaying him. Al is a good offensive player and he is in his prime. Let's wait to get a fair value in return and trade him.

[Diesel]

Hey, you came up with the list... Don't be surprised...

especially, your prized pupil Webber. He makes 19.1 million dollars this year and more next year. Webber has never been a good defender.. Never.. and he's only slightly better than Al offensively.

You pointed out Dirk. Dirk is not a good defender. However, he's making 13.8.

You pointed out Pierce. Lord Knows Pierce can't defend well. Yet he's making 13.8.

This is your list.

Peja. = NO defense.

Wally tries but he's no Artest.

My point is that I wouldn't give Al the max. However a 9 million dollar deal is a good deal.

Also, you don't find players who are as good as Al has been for us offensively everyday. You proved for me that teams with similar players as Al has paid a lot of money to keep those players...

[twentythree]

That list isn't mine. I just gave Memo and Troy's names. I thought that you tried to pull up Al's value, I tried to show the similar ones.

Quote:

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My point is that I wouldn't give Al the max. However a 9 million dollar deal is a good deal.

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A flat contract starts with 9 million is a good deal in a market which Dunleavy, Simmons, Mobley, Kwame, Walker, Q-Rich has recently got zillions of dollars. Al is better than most of those guys, but I'm not sure that he will show the same performance after the contract.

Anyway, I'm ok with 6 year, 55 million for Al. However, if a trade offer knocks our door including Francis, I wouldn't say no giving Al, Lue and Delk.

[joannes3000]

Quote:

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You pointed out Dirk. Dirk is not a good defender. However, he's making 13.8.

You pointed out Pierce. Lord Knows Pierce can't defend well. Yet he's making 13.8.

My point is that I wouldn't give Al the max. However a 9 million dollar deal is a good deal.

Also, you don't find players who are as good as Al has been for us offensively everyday. You proved for me that teams with similar players as Al has paid a lot of money to keep those players...

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I've seen enough arguments on whether or not stats can justify a player's defensive impact on a game so I don't want to argue over whether or not Dirk or Pierce play good defense. In fact, I'll try to take defense out of the question.

Comparing their salaries to a projected 9 mil salary to keep Al - I would readily overpay for a Dirk/Pierce type of player that goes for more ppg and has more of an impact on the game giving the rest of the team more flexibility on the offensive side of things.

I don't think it's justifiable to compare Al to Dirk/Pierce until he can prove that he can be an offensive game changer; someone that would not only compliment JJ by giving him more offensive talent to feed off of, but someone that would compliment the rest of the team on the court.

Yes, Al's numbers look great. Yes he's been producing extremely well as of late. However, it remains to be seen if he can continue to produce at the level he's at.

[Diesel]

This is the first season that Al has gotten Starter minutes and has been a first option on offense. He definitely has picked up his game. His stats prove that.

I'm not saying that Al is Pierce or Dirk. I'm saying that neither of these guys are the others are great defenders yet they make lots more than Al. Teams that have good coaching will take a usable offensive talent like Al and find a defensive scheme that works. Until we can count on the younger forwards we have, until one shows tht they can offensive hold up the PF position, I see no problem with us keeping Al with a resonable contract that can be traded later.

[Lascar78]

all those players are older than Al and NBA players earn more and more as they age. What was C-Webb's contract at Al's age?

[Diesel]

Cwebbs second contract was Shaqlike..

Wasn't it 7 yrs 119 million?

He and Howard got OVER...

[Lascar78]

Webber was at least a couple of years older than Al when he signed his monster deal

[Wretch]

The problem with having Al as a vet is that he's so young. It is good to have a guy in front of you who knows the game and that you can learn from. But the net result is having the young apply what he has learned and supplant the vet at some point. Al hasn't even hit his prime yet. As it were, he is coming into his own and will command his starting spot for the next 10 years.

And while I'm sure there are many thingss that Marvin could learn from Al on the court, he will have to first GET on the court to utilize them...and if he's playing next to Al, he will have to wait (and wait he shall) for the oppotunity to do something. It really is the same problem we had last year and it isn't Al's fault. We moved a piece out of the way so that we could bring the Josh's along - and they responded well. Though, instead of keeping the way open for them, we drafted another forward. That put us back at square one.

I'm worried about wins too...but this core will go as far as Al is going to take them. As I've said previously, I don't think Al is the kind of player that can take a team anywhere. He's a core player, but he's a complimentary player. What's more, Marvin's role in the wins that we DO get will be minimal. Unless he bumps Smoove down in the rotation...and here we are again. Same problem...and it says nothing about Chill who has to find minutes at the 2 competing with JJ and Salim and the 3 competing with Marvin, Smoove, and even Al occaisonally. It's a mess.

Don't get me wrong though. I am not all about giving up Al for "anything" just to make room. That's stupid. I'm not in that boat... I'm not interested in expiring contracts and low 1sts. I'm not interested in the draft to tell the truth. I just don't see a place longterm for all these damn forwards/swingmen. I don't see the point in drafting guys at the top of the draft, only to condition them as backups.

[joannes3000]

I agree on all fronts, other than the reasoning behind why Dirk/Pierce are getting paid more. What's your stance on why they're getting paid more or why they shouldn't be getting paid more than Al? We've both already agreed that it's not because of their defensive play.

[Final_quest]

I'll stick with my position that signing Al makes it very difficult to sign anyone else of significance, unless we draft them. Each team gets to sign 2-3 players to a contract as big as Al's.

We already have JJ on a contract like this, and personally I would like to be in a position to sign a big player in 2007. If we sign Al, we cannot.

[Diesel]

We can sign Al and still have 10 million to spend.

This FA crop is not so strong and because of the new CBA, the best way to get players is by trade.. FAs will be less likely to leave their teams UNLESS they want to (JJ)...

Signing Al, doesn't hinder our ability in FAcy.. It's just another con that people who want to move Al just for the sake of moving him make...