Our identity... Are we like the Pistons?

[Wretch]

Back when I used to argue/namecall/posture about our beloved Hawks, someone brought up a point - that we build our team like the Pistons. Naturally, I scoffed at the idea of a halfcourt, non-superstar led, plodding defensive team...

I can't remember who it was, but dude may have been right. When you look at our squad, is there really a guy on that superstar level? Do we really have that one guy that is amazingly special? We've got REALLY good players - guys that can get things done all over the court. But I don't see that one guy on our team that just dominates.

I love JJ and he is as clutch as they come. The secret to JJ though is not that he's so gifted. Guy is simply a workhorse. He's a talented, strong, smart player who takes good shots. He doesn't dominate the game the way a superstar does, he is just SO good at letting the game come to him.

Really, all of our players are like that. And on any given night, anyone will step up and hit shots for us. Reminds me of the Pistons. Are any of those guys individually THAT good? No... IMHO, they're all just pretty damn good and when they play unselfish, they can beat anybody. Sound familiar?

Yes, we are a HELL of a lot more atheletic. But factor in our defense, the way we rebound...and it makes you wonder.

Is that our identity we've been looking for?

[KB21]

Yes.

I don't know if I'm the one you are thinking about, but I've said in the past that the model for the Hawks should be the Pistons and the Spurs, because both teams play tough defense and are successful because of their defense.

[coachx]

With Woody coming from the championship Pistons we all have stated the similarities there.

I like to compare us to some of the old Pacers teams too. (O'Neil was doing the same thing after last nights game but I go back a few more years to before O'Neil was there)

Rick Smits = ZaZa

Dale Davis and Antonio Davis = Al Horford / Shelden Williams

Chris Mullin = Marvin Williams

Reggie Miller = Joe Johnson

Mark Jackson = AJ

McKey = Chilldress

I know, I know. those Larry Bird coached Pacers teams were far better then us but I see a slight resemblance.

1. AJ is no Mark Jackson but they are physically similar in size and athelticsm and both played the part of veteran leader and floor general

2. ZaZa is not an allstar 7'4'' center like Rick Smits....really, no similarities here.

3. Dale & Antonio Davis were both rebounding bruisers who played tough low post defense like Horford and Sheldon. Horford has far more upside then either od the Davis guys.

4. Chris Mullin was primarily a spot up shooter in his older days in Indiana. Marvin is our spot up shooter but without elite 3 point range. Marvin can take the ball to the basket and draw fouls better then Mullin and Marvin still has tons of potential.

5. Reggie was their leading scorer and JJ is ours. Not alot of similarities in their games other then that.

6. Mr Versatility and 6th Man of the Year Derrick McKey is alot like our own Josh Childress.

We have one thing they did not have.....an X factor in Josh Smith.

[coachx]

Forgot to include Jalen Rose. In his prime Rose extremely gifted with an all around game that resembles JJ's without the strength.

Rose and JJ are probably a better comparison the Reggie and JJ.

Jalen and JJ are both 6'7 - 6'8'' guys with complete games who could play PG in a crunch.

I guess the main comparison with us an the Pacers is good quality depth.

[thesheedera]

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Back when I used to argue/namecall/posture about our beloved Hawks, someone brought up a point - that we build our team like the Pistons. Naturally, I scoffed at the idea of a halfcourt, non-superstar led, plodding defensive team...

I can't remember who it was, but dude may have been right. When you look at our squad, is there really a guy on that superstar level? Do we really have that one guy that is amazingly special? We've got REALLY good players - guys that can get things done all over the court. But I don't see that one guy on our team that just dominates.

I love JJ and he is as clutch as they come. The secret to JJ though is not that he's so gifted. Guy is simply a workhorse. He's a talented, strong, smart player who takes good shots. He doesn't dominate the game the way a superstar does, he is just SO good at letting the game come to him.

Really, all of our players are like that. And on any given night, anyone will step up and hit shots for us. Reminds me of the Pistons. Are any of those guys individually THAT good? No... IMHO, they're all just pretty damn good and when they play unselfish, they can beat anybody. Sound familiar?

Yes, we are a HELL of a lot more atheletic. But factor in our defense, the way we rebound...and it makes you wonder.

Is that our identity we've been looking for?

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I like the thought and think it makes sense. But JJ does take over games by himself, sometimes to a fault, usually to give the team the best chance to win.

We relied on the iso too much last night and still got the win. I think we're definitely far more dangerous when we set screens, move the ball and move without the ball. But playing that way consistently requires a lot of habit forming and team chemistry. Hopefully all in good time.

[coachx]

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But JJ does take over games by himself, sometimes to a fault, usually to give the team the best chance to win.

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Kind of like Reggie Miller ?

Reggie was "Mr. Clutch" and JJ tries to wear that cape too.

[exodus]

The Hawks definitely need to be a strong defensive team to be successful. However i think this team should be looking to run more and attack the basket more in the half court than the Pistons ever did. The Pistons have always been pretty much a jump shooting team.

[GoDawgs21]

From Dec '05.

Not saying I called it, but reading all these post lately I just wonder how nobody else saw it. I know many others that did. We all knew it was going to be a slow process, but we had to be patient and see it through. Why would I think a board where anyone one bad quarter let alone a game has people talking trade and chicken little syndrom?

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I posted this earlier on the AJC blog and it got me thinking.

I did want to respond to something you said in T. (I hate my life, so I take it out on others) Moore's blog. You say we have too many SF, but it is this depth that is allowing for all out effort on defense every minute. You ask what will happen when Marvin comes back? Lets do some simple math. There are 48 minutes at each F spot. It is safe to say Smoove plays alot at the PF. Chill also plays 3-4 minutes at the 2 when JJ goes out, and last night even played 3 at the PG for a long athletic lineup to give the starters a rest. Shelden will also slide over and play 3-4 minutes at the C spot when other teams go small to give ZaZa a breather. Thats 106 total minutes for four players Shelden, Chill, Marvin, SMith. Thats 27 minutes a player. UM, hello most starters average 30-35 minutes a game. So we have our top four players in the entire time. How many games last 2 years would our bench come in and we would be in the game down 1 or 2 and then get blown out by I 15-4 run with our bench in. Now imagine other teams bench going against a fresh, Chill, Marvin, Smith, or Sheldon. Can you say match up problems. Thats 27 minutes that each play can be going all out on defense and offense where some players tank a few positions to rest up. Its this depth that allows us to run, play d, and then not worry if one guy gets in foul trouble (how many times last year if Smith or Al got in trouble did we hear Smitty say who's going ot help Joe score now), or god forbid someone get hurt. Its all about depth, we trade one of these guys and then one gets hurt ala Marvin, Matt Frieje is a starter. Think about that. Teams like Miami and Detriot are succesfull because of depth. Nobody whined about Detriot having Wallace,Wallace,Tashyun, Antonio McDyess. Gee, thats 4 forwards. How did that depth turn out for them??? Miami went out and got Haslam, Wright, Walker, Siemen, Kapono. It seems that everyone points out the Hawks glut at the F spot, but nobody points out that strategy has won several rings in the past 5 years.

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[Diesel]

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We've got REALLY good players - guys that can get things done all over the court. But I don't see that one guy on our team that just dominates.

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Wretch, you're not looking hard enough. JJ is that guy. He dominates the game period. Even when he's not scoring, he can do other things to make the team better. Recently, Johnson & Johnson has been ripping other teams defenses because for a long time, JJ had nobody consistent to throw it to. Now, JJ has a few people... AJ, MW, and on occassions even Smoove. Everything is keyed off of JJ. He might not wake up until the 4th, but when he wakes up, he's got the best midrange game in basketball. He doesn't have the charisma of a Lebron or the outspokeness of a Kobe... but for us, JJ is our dominate player.

I say we start calling Joe Hypertension. Because he's the Silent Killer on this team!!

[GoDawgs21]

It's from last November. Here is the link, and I love Diesel's and my comments in the first two replies at the time. I guess JJ did turn into that guy:

Post Link

[coachx]

So is the topic now exclusively on the foward postion ?

Hawks Present "Fowards" (5):

Smith, Marvin, Sheldon, Chills, Horford (PF / C)

Bird's Pacers Fowards (5):

Dale & Antonio Davis (both PF/C), McKey, Rose, Mullins

Both teams have 5 good quality "fowards."

Piston fowards of championship season (4):

Wallace (PF/C), Wallace, Prince, Okur (PF C)

All 3 had depth and had the foward position. The Pistons later subtracted Okur but added McDeysse & Maxielle to keep the foward theme going.

The problem I have with the Pistons comparison is that their best player and MVP runner up was Chauncey Billups, a PG, not a foward. "Mr. Big Shot", Chauncey Billups was and still is the biggest part of the Piston's success.

The Pacers had Miller as the clutch "big shot" shooter with an abundance of fowards MUCH like our Hawks with JJ and our abundance of fowards. Both teams also had slow over the hill PGs running the show (Mark Jackson with Reggie and AJ with JJ).

[KB21]

Really, this is a good point. From a talent stand point, these Hawks do resemble the Indiana Pacers from the late '90s. It's probably for a good reason to, since Billy Knight was the VP of Player Personnel for those Indiana teams. Looking back on it now, it's pretty clear that he either had a lot of influence over the make up of that roster or was influenced by the people he worked with in Indiana.

Let's not forget that a lot of the defense first mentality that was installed into those Pistons teams was done so by Rick Carlisle, who was an assistant coach on those Indiana Pacers teams.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Back when I used to argue/namecall/posture about our beloved Hawks, someone brought up a point - that we build our team like the Pistons. Naturally, I scoffed at the idea of a halfcourt, non-superstar led, plodding defensive team...

I can't remember who it was, but dude may have been right. When you look at our squad, is there really a guy on that superstar level? Do we really have that one guy that is amazingly special? We've got REALLY good players - guys that can get things done all over the court. But I don't see that one guy on our team that just dominates.

I love JJ and he is as clutch as they come. The secret to JJ though is not that he's so gifted. Guy is simply a workhorse. He's a talented, strong, smart player who takes good shots. He doesn't dominate the game the way a superstar does, he is just SO good at letting the game come to him.

Really, all of our players are like that. And on any given night, anyone will step up and hit shots for us. Reminds me of the Pistons. Are any of those guys individually THAT good? No... IMHO, they're all just pretty damn good and when they play unselfish, they can beat anybody. Sound familiar?

Yes, we are a HELL of a lot more atheletic. But factor in our defense, the way we rebound...and it makes you wonder.

Is that our identity we've been looking for?

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A few people on this board have made the Pistons comparison over the past few years. I made it recently, when a lot of people were wondering why we weren't running more. A big deal was made about the pace that we were playing. I stated that we resemble the Pistons, more than any other team in the league, and that we were built like them from the jump.

There's no way we could transform into a running team, without a point guard that could run the team at that pace. And without a decent low post player, we'd have to win games because of defense instead of by running. Our athleticism is more of a defensive asset, than an offensive running asset.

If you want to make player comparisons . . .

JJ = Billups: He's the guy that runs the show and will usually take the big shots.

Marvin = Rip: The jumpshooter on the team that kills you from midrange

Smoove = Rasheed: The "wild card" of each team that can play at elite levels on both ends of the floor at times. Also makes questonable decisions at times on both ends of the floor.

Chill = Tayshawn: Similar type games as far as the way they attack the basket. Not afraid to mix it up inside.

Horford = McDyess: Serves as the anchor in the middle to help out Smoove/Rasheed. Can rebound, defend, and hit the 15 foot jumper.

AJ = Lindsey Hunter: Veteran PG that knows how to play. Not afraid to mix it up defensively and will knock down the open 3.

Shelden = Maxiell: LOL, I wish, but that should be who he should play like coming off the bench. Last night, he did just that.

As a defensive group, the Pistons length bothers people tremendously. People also say the same thing about the Hawks. For the mot part, the Pistons don't give up too many easy shots. We're slowly getting to that point.

The 2 big differences between us and them, are Rasheed's ability to score in the post, and their overall experience. And when they get their rookie Rodney Stuckey back up to speed, they might become impossible to beat.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Wretch, you're not looking hard enough. JJ is that guy. He dominates the game period. Even when he's not scoring, he can do other things to make the team better. Recently, Johnson & Johnson has been ripping other teams defenses because for a long time, JJ had nobody consistent to throw it to. Now, JJ has a few people... AJ, MW, and on occassions even Smoove. Everything is keyed off of JJ. He might not wake up until the 4th, but when he wakes up, he's got the best midrange game in basketball. He doesn't have the charisma of a Lebron or the outspokeness of a Kobe... but for us, JJ is our dominate player.

I say we start calling Joe Hypertension. Because he's the Silent Killer on this team!!

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LOL @ Hypertension. I like that.

Ex, I guess you and I are the only ones that are really fans off JJ, and can really see how he makes everyone else better on this team.

That guy accounted for almost 50 points last night via points and assists, yet, some STILL don't realize just how good this guy is. Even the play he made last night on Smoove's 3 pointer, was set up all the way by JJ. Smoove knew he was goin to get the ball, just in the way that JJ was slowly drifting away when that weak double team came.

He's driftng away, looking at the shot clock the entire time. Then he whips the ball to Smoove, who is already set to shoot the 3. Smoove calmly knocks the shot down, even with a man running at him. And the entire play was set up by JJ.

When JJ starts to go off, I like to call him "Joe-zilla". He's like Godzillla wreaking havoc on Tokyo when he's on.

But I like hypertension better.

[KB21]

I agree. Joe Johnson is a great player, but he will never be recognized by the media as a great player because he isn't a selfish self promoter like some of the guys the media has latched onto as superstars.

Joe Johnson is a better basketball player than Carmelo Anthony, but you will never hear the media mention it because Carmelo is a self promoter. On the court though, Carmelo is a shot chucker that doesn't play defense.

[coachx]

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I agree. Joe Johnson is a great player, but he will never be recognized by the media as a great player because he isn't a selfish self promoter like some of the guys the media has latched onto as superstars.

Joe Johnson is a better basketball player than Carmelo Anthony, but you will never hear the media mention it because Carmelo is a self promoter. On the court though, Carmelo is a shot chucker that doesn't play defense.

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Alot of it has to do with the how much hype you had coming into the league.

Carmelo won an NCAA Championship as freshman while being the national player of the year. Plus he hd te Lebon connection.

I do agree with you that JJ is a better all around player NOW then Carmelo but I am throwing in another important variable.

Had JJ won player of the year and a National Championship at Arkansas in hisfrshmn season like Melo did and not taken 3 seasons to develop into a bonafide NBA player he too would have had hype fom day 1. .

[TheNorthCydeRises]

LOL @ GoDawgs. That thread is classic. You and Sothron going back and forth was hilarious. LOL @ Walter's idiotic post about a room full of African-Americans, not being diverse. So say we have 5 Afrcan-Americans in a room, ages 18 - 22.

- one is a 20 year old black female college student, wanting to become a doctor

- one is an 18 year old male street thug

- one is a male 22 year old male who recenty got his degree in electrical egineering

- one is a 19 year old female who has one child and is receiving governmet assistance.

- and one is a 21 year old female who already owns her own business as a hair stylist.

The ONLY common denominator in this scenario, is that they're all African-American. But in no way, shape, and form are they the same. This is a very diverse group.

Just like all the forwards on the Hawks.

- JJ is the playmaker who can do it all

- Marvin is the deadeye jumpshooter

- Smoove is the athletic freak of nature defender

- Chill is the relentless slasher and energizer

Technically, all are SFs. But neither are anything alike.

[GoDawgs21]

I enjoyed that too. I loved looking back at Sothron, and my how he has grown in a year.

That argument and the following drafting argument was priceless. After being completely shot down Soth did the mature thing and put me on block. oh crap

[pound4pound]

Detroit is unique and not really what we have going here. The Pistons run you to death with Rip, or back you down with Chauncey or SHeed to the point you have to bring a second defender to help. What seperates Detroit from Atlanta is that whoever is left open is going to knock down that shot. And if you don't help - Chauncey is going to just drain it with 2 seconds left anyway.

Detroit is awesome like that. They are 4 equal players of equal talents - All Star quality. Even if Joe and Josh make the All-Star team, Chills get 6th man of the year, Marvin is most improved player and Horford is ROY, we still can't say that. The good news is that you don't have to to get to the finals - look at Dallas.

We are more like the Mavricks in that we have one player who is going to get a chance at creating his own shot and run the offense through a high pick and roll.

Dirk = JJ

Harris = AJ

Howard = Josh

Stackhouse = Marvin

Diop = Horford

Both have a pretty deep bench -

Terry = Law

Dampier = ZaZa

George = Chills

Biera = Lue

Bass = Shell

I think you can argue that we have a better inside presence with Horford while we would be hard pressed to beat Terry/Harris with AJ/Law. Maybe a deeper bench too.

[Johnnybravo4]

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I agree. Joe Johnson is a great player, but he will never be recognized by the media as a great player because he isn't a selfish self promoter like some of the guys the media has latched onto as superstars.

Joe Johnson is a better basketball player than Carmelo Anthony, but you will never hear the media mention it because Carmelo is a self promoter. On the court though, Carmelo is a shot chucker that doesn't play defense.

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Alot of it has to do with the how much hype you had coming into the league.

Carmelo won an NCAA Championship as freshman while being the national player of the year. Plus he hd te Lebon connection.

I do agree with you that JJ is a better all around player NOW then Carmelo but I am throwing in another important variable.

Had JJ won player of the year and a National Championship at Arkansas in hisfrshmn season like Melo did and not taken 3 seasons to develop into a bonafide NBA player he too would have had hype fom day 1. .

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Horford doesn't get much fan fare either and he won Back to back titles. Maybe if he has floppy hair like Noah, he'd be more popular.