Smith/Horford situation..

[BusBoyIsBack]

Horford and Smoove at the 4 and 5 is the only way to go. I completely agree. The two can't co-exist in the starting lineupe together in any other arrangement.

The reason is because Josh Smith IS NOT a 3. He's a better 4 on better ends of the floor.

Some would suggest a having two guys under 6'11 can't work in the NBA. I think that's BS. Our problem wasn't our starting frontcourt, it was our BACKUP. The guy we actually had over 6'10 is the one who needs to be upgraded in Zaza.

We also need more boxing out as a team on the defensive rebounding.

[Guest Walter]

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If he can come in at close to 7' tall and shoot 40%+ from 3 while playing the 5 then you will definitely see what all the fuss is about. He could be an X factor as to whether Horford and Smith can exist together at the 3/4.

This would definitely be an interesting front line. I'd have to lean towards trying it given our other options. Trade ZaZa and a resigned Childress for a BU 2 and defensive big and then we've got something.

W

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Whether we have Andersen, another big, is a moot point.

This is all about Josh Smith.

If he plays the 4, he HAS to get tougher. If he contines to play weak, he will always be a schizophrenic offensive player. That means the kid has to mix it up on the inside, especially on the offensive boards. As long as he continues to play like Rasheed Wallace, he will always struggle as an offensive player, regardless of who our center is.

What I would like to know from the Andersen fans, is what kind of numbers do you really expect for him to put up here, with JJ, Bibby, and Smoove taking over 60% of the shots. Do you give Andersen more shots than Marvin? Horford? Acie? Chill?

Seriously. Do some of you expect Andersen to come in here, and even average 8 ppg, with all of the players we currently have on the roster right now? Who are you taking shots away from, in order to maximize Andersen's effectiveness on the offensive end?

Some of you need to be careful putting your hopes and dreams into Andersen. He might be no more than the next Matt Bullard, instead of a guy who can be a key cog off the bench.

But back to the topic . . . this is all about Josh Smith, and no one else. Al has proven that he will at least battle at center night in and night out. Smoove picks and chooses when he wants to battle. When he does decide that he'll battle every night, he'll be a 10 - 12 rpg guy, see his FG% go up, and really be a force in this league, regardless of who is playing center for us.

But Smith HAS TO PLAY THE 4. You play him at the 3, you better do like Utah did Kirilenko, and drastically reduce the number of shots he takes, unless he scores the vast majority of his points via offensive rebounds and off the fast break.

[dre1218us]

I think Horford and Smith can coexist at the 3 and 4, you just have to make sure your PG and Center can shoot. Horford and Smith are both too talented for either to be dealt IMO.

Horford also isn't done developing, he could develop a midrange J to take the sting off a bit.

[AHF]

After watching our bigs with wide open looks from around the FT line when JJ was doubled and tripled in the playoffs, I have no doubt Anderson can fill a valuable role on this team.

[Diesel]

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Have been thinking about this, and the only way this team will be successful with both of them is with Horford at C and Smith at PF. If we can't do that or don't think it will work long term, than we need to get rid of one now. Reason being, if Smith is the SF and Horford the PF with some other center, we will be the worst shooting team in the entire NBA, and JJ will remain to get doubled and we won't be able to make teams pay for it. Acie is supposed to be our PG of the future, and he isn't a shooter either, so that lineup just WON'T work period unless we bring in a PG like Mark Price in his prime to be the starter.

If you think Smith is an SF, fine, but it would never work given our current roster.

When did SFs become shooters? Historically, SF was the spot where you put your worse defender/best scorer. Just because Larry Bird played Sf, doesn't mean that it's the spot for a shooter. I think the thinking has been clouded a little and we forgot the purpose of the wing. The purpose of the wing has never been defined as three point specialist? Hell Dominique was a wing. However, the purpose was to be a guy who didn't bang but was able to score. Smoove can be transformed into that.

The other thing is midrange scorer. Midrange scorers are like the dinosaur. Reason being is because they are not that effective if they can't drive. Look at Big dog!!

We're talking about keeping Marvin on and trading Smoove or Horford because Marvin has a midrange game.

Come on Atlas.

Historically, Shooting comes from the 1 and 2 positions. Along with that, Smoove needs to work on his driving through traffic and with Horf at the pF, we will be a very good team. Horf will improve. You can't stop that.

[Dsinner]

I watched that vid and I must say...While I feel he may not be a serious contender, his game is nothing like a Bullard or Zhizhi. Some of those shots he was hitting were very tough contested legit moves in a legit league. He's much more athletic and (seemingly) touch than anyone you guys are comparing him too.

That said, I'd see who else is interested and package him in a trade with Marv to get a "battle tested" center.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I watched that vid and I must say...While I feel he may not be a serious contender, his game is nothing like a Bullard or Zhizhi. Some of those shots he was hitting were very tough contested legit moves in a legit league. He's much more athletic and (seemingly) touch than anyone you guys are comparing him too.

A legit league that saw former Duke and Cleveland Cavalier player Trajan Langon win their Final Four MVP and a league where former NBA journeyman, Marc Jackson, might be the best center in the league?

As for videos, didn't people on this board learn anything from the Yi hype last summer?

Project Andersen's numbers for next season then ... numbers you expect from him:

- minutes

- points

- FG%

- 3FG%

I won't address the other categories, seeing that people only expect offensive production out of DA.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 of the biggest pipe dreams on this board are:

- Marvin will become a star player.

I believed that at one time, but i have to come to the realization that Marvin's destiny will probably that of a very good role player that has the capability of being an efficient scorer alongside a star player. He'll never be "the man", as far as I can see.

But he definitenly isn't a bust or a guy who isn't still improving. I could see him averaging 18 - 20 ppg with 50% FG shooting during the peak of his career, ONLY, if a team trusts him enough to be the #2 scoring option. Other than that, he'll be a realiable, but unspectaclar 14 - 17 ppg scorer who plays in the league for another 7 - 10 years.

- Josh Smith can develop enough to effectively play SF

Josh is where he is right now because he can beat most PFs down the court or off the dribble. He cannot do this wth SFs. On defense, he'll have trouble with slashing SFs that can get to the rim. He's also one of the worst outside shooters in the league. He also has trouble handling the ball under even light defensive pressure.

So if he can't beat SFs off the dribble, or knock down open jumpers, or dribble effectively when pressured, how in the world can he play SF AND continue to be our #2 or #3 option in the offense? His shot at being a big time player, is continue to play the 4. But he has to get tough.

It's Josh Smith that this organization and coaches keep having to adjust to, in order to keep him on the floor. Adding a center and moving Smoove to the 3, doesn't help this team. It just creates different problems that will hinder us.

[Diesel]

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- Josh Smith can develop enough to effectively play SF

Josh is where he is right now because he can beat most PFs down the court or off the dribble. He cannot do this wth SFs. On defense, he'll have trouble with slashing SFs that can get to the rim. He's also one of the worst outside shooters in the league. He also has trouble handling the ball under even light defensive pressure.

So if he can't beat SFs off the dribble, or knock down open jumpers, or dribble effectively when pressured, how in the world can he play SF AND continue to be our #2 or #3 option in the offense? His shot at being a big time player, is continue to play the 4. But he has to get tough.

It's Josh Smith that this organization and coaches keep having to adjust to, in order to keep him on the floor. Adding a center and moving Smoove to the 3, doesn't help this team. It just creates different problems that will hinder us.

If this is the problem, you change the defense. You have to understand... historically, you always put your worse defender at Sf anyway. Also, when you're talking about the ability to play Zone defense, we should be able to hide Smoove's inabilities. I think Smoove works better as a rover anyway. He gets Punked by bigs who know how to use their body. We're talking 3 quick fouls in the first half in a playoff game. On top of that, you play Horf out of position, so now he's trying to play Center... that doesn't make sense.

It would be nice if David Andersen can come in and provide us with 13-15 points in 24 minutes and give the last 24 to Zaza.

I don't know why Wood never experimented with differnent kinds of matchup Zones. Lastly, Smoove's mentality is not going to allow him to be a pF.

[JackB1]

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2 of the biggest pipe dreams on this board are:

- Marvin will become a star player.

I believed that at one time, but i have to come to the realization that Marvin's destiny will probably that of a very good role player that has the capability of being an efficient scorer alongside a star player. He'll never be "the man", as far as I can see.

But he definitenly isn't a bust or a guy who isn't still improving. I could see him averaging 18 - 20 ppg with 50% FG shooting during the peak of his career, ONLY, if a team trusts him enough to be the #2 scoring option. Other than that, he'll be a realiable, but unspectaclar 14 - 17 ppg scorer who plays in the league for another 7 - 10 years.

- Josh Smith can develop enough to effectively play SF

Josh is where he is right now because he can beat most PFs down the court or off the dribble. He cannot do this wth SFs. On defense, he'll have trouble with slashing SFs that can get to the rim. He's also one of the worst outside shooters in the league. He also has trouble handling the ball under even light defensive pressure.

So if he can't beat SFs off the dribble, or knock down open jumpers, or dribble effectively when pressured, how in the world can he play SF AND continue to be our #2 or #3 option in the offense? His shot at being a big time player, is continue to play the 4. But he has to get tough.

It's Josh Smith that this organization and coaches keep having to adjust to, in order to keep him on the floor. Adding a center and moving Smoove to the 3, doesn't help this team. It just creates different problems that will hinder us.

You are totally right on the money with Part 2. Smoove will not help this team moving to the 3. Everything depends on IF we get a #5 that can start. If we do, then it would be stupid not to trade Smoove. Keeping Al and Smoove doesn't make sense if we have a starting #5.

I think we have all realized that playing Al at center hasn't really been a problem. There are only a few teams that have 7 footers that can hurt us. We can keep things as is, if we just a decent #5 for those particular games. I would like to see a scenario where we keep Al AND Smoove. Those 2 guys are the heart and soul of this team and I would love to see them both grow and improve together.

[Diesel]

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You are totally right on the money with Part 2. Smoove will not help this team moving to the 3. Everything depends on IF we get a #5 that can start. If we do, then it would be stupid not to trade Smoove. Keeping Al and Smoove doesn't make sense if we have a starting #5.

I think we have all realized that playing Al at center hasn't really been a problem. There are only a few teams that have 7 footers that can hurt us. We can keep things as is, if we just a decent #5 for those particular games. I would like to see a scenario where we keep Al AND Smoove. Those 2 guys are the heart and soul of this team and I would love to see them both grow and improve together.

It's much easier to fix Smoove's problems at the 3 position than it is for his lack of ability at the 4. Playing Smoove at the 4 keeps Horf from being a 4 and that's a problem in itself.

However, the answer is not trading Smoove???

Of all the possibilities, this is the last.

Trading Smoove makes our team very average.

How many times in a game does Smoove save our defense in transition?

When we played Boston in the series, it was Smoove killing Rondo on the break that shut Rondo down. That's just a tidbit of what he gives us.

Now, the other things are coach fixable.

Meaning that if you have to, give him the hook everytime he shoots from outside.

Teach him to play Sf.

Our offensive coaching has been sad in deed... no wonder our players just make up stuff.

[AtLaS]

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When did SFs become shooters? Historically, SF was the spot where you put your worse defender/best scorer. Just because Larry Bird played Sf, doesn't mean that it's the spot for a shooter. I think the thinking has been clouded a little and we forgot the purpose of the wing. The purpose of the wing has never been defined as three point specialist? Hell Dominique was a wing. However, the purpose was to be a guy who didn't bang but was able to score. Smoove can be transformed into that.

My problem isn't the "definition" of an SF, my problem is that our SF has to be able to shoot given the current makeup of our team. If Smith moves to SF, that means we don't have ONE 3pt shooter on our future team other than JJ since Acie is our future PG. That means we HAVE to get shooting from our SF, otherwise teams will continue to double JJ and force us to make open shots which we can't do. This goes back to my question, find ONE successful team that didn't have at least 2 quality 3pt shooters in their starting lineup.

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The other thing is midrange scorer. Midrange scorers are like the dinosaur. Reason being is because they are not that effective if they can't drive. Look at Big dog!!

We're talking about keeping Marvin on and trading Smoove or Horford because Marvin has a midrange game.

I don't want to keep Marvin at all. Marvin and Childress aren't 3pt shooters either, why do you think I started a thread less than 2 weeks ago saying Marvin AND Chill need to go? We absolutely must get 3pt shooting from somewhere to space the floor and limit JJ doubles.

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Historically, Shooting comes from the 1 and 2 positions.

And our future 1 can't shoot as of now, and our 2 gets doubled constantly under these circumstances. So where will we get shooting from? We will NEVER be a good half court team if that's the case, EVER.

[Dsinner]

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I watched that vid and I must say...While I feel he may not be a serious contender, his game is nothing like a Bullard or Zhizhi. Some of those shots he was hitting were very tough contested legit moves in a legit league. He's much more athletic and (seemingly) touch than anyone you guys are comparing him too.

A legit league that saw former Duke and Cleveland Cavalier player Trajan Langon win their Final Four MVP and a league where former NBA journeyman, Marc Jackson, might be the best center in the league?

As for videos, didn't people on this board learn anything from the Yi hype last summer?

Project Andersen's numbers for next season then ... numbers you expect from him:

- minutes

- points

- FG%

- 3FG%

WTF are you talking about? Numbers I might expect?? I'm simply saying he has moves that are not Bullard or Zhizhi like. The guy is more fluid and tougher than those two. And no I wasn't on the Yi wagon but I'd take him (and Anderson) over Bullard or Zhizhi, which is my point.

Jesus you can't give anyone a complement on here without the assumption your lips are attatched to his nuts.

As far as the video goes, the guy was hitting some tough shots with a hand in his face. I don't care if it's Shaq's hand or Langdon's hand it was a hand (and yes this is a legit league where current NBA players swing through). That's not as easy as some of you might think. In fact, I don't believe Yi's vidoes showed anything but him hitting open jumpers.

Again, for the record this time, he probably will not be a big time impact player but he isn't exactly the Bullard and Zhizhi stiffs some are comparing him to.

Please re-read that last sentence as that is my point.

[Johnnybravo4]

I totally expect D.A. to be what Zaza was his first year. Avg 11/6 get tough offensive rebounds and knock down outside shots.

[thefloydian]

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What I would like to know from the Andersen fans, is what kind of numbers do you really expect for him to put up here, with JJ, Bibby, and Smoove taking over 60% of the shots. Do you give Andersen more shots than Marvin? Horford? Acie? Chill?

I would take shots away from Bibby because he can't shoot more than half the time. Childress also can't hit an outside shot for the most part. You could also eliminate all of Josh Smith's jumpers.

Not that difficult to figure out. Have you not realized that the Hawks biggest problem is when JJ gets double teamed and Bibby can't hit a shot? I don't know why it's so hard to believe they need another shooter to come in and take some shots. This year's strategy led to a 37-45 record.

[Diesel]

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My problem isn't the "definition" of an SF, my problem is that our SF has to be able to shoot given the current makeup of our team. If Smith moves to SF, that means we don't have ONE 3pt shooter on our future team other than JJ since Acie is our future PG. That means we HAVE to get shooting from our SF, otherwise teams will continue to double JJ and force us to make open shots which we can't do. This goes back to my question, find ONE successful team that didn't have at least 2 quality 3pt shooters in their starting lineup.

Uhm... If Smith isn't moved to Sf... doesn't this problem still exist?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marvin (the other choice) only shoot 10 3pters on the year? Moreover, it depends on what Big we put on the floor. From my understanding Andersen can help spread the floor in the same manner than Lambeer did. In that situation, I would rather have Smoove on the floor with his ability to grab rebounds than Marvin.

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T

I don't want to keep Marvin at all. Marvin and Childress aren't 3pt shooters either, why do you think I started a thread less than 2 weeks ago saying Marvin AND Chill need to go? We absolutely must get 3pt shooting from somewhere to space the floor and limit JJ doubles.

Ok, here we agree.. but let's state this one thing. Why do we have to be the 2nd part of the Suns. Our focus offensively is wrong. If you're talking future... Acie will be more of a drive and dish type PG. Everybody but Woody can see that in him. That being the case, do you need many three point shooters. I say we need guys who can finish around the rim. That's Horf and Smoove to me. Three point shooters are good to have, but they are not the end all. Let's get some concrete coaching with some real plays and then see where we are.

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And our future 1 can't shoot as of now, and our 2 gets doubled constantly under these circumstances. So where will we get shooting from? We will NEVER be a good half court team if that's the case, EVER.

I don't think you can always count on our future 1 to not be able to score. I think he can score. Again, you have to give him some playing time.

On the season, Law shot 80% from the FT law. 40% from the field. I suppose that given more playing time, you wll see that FG% come up to about 45-46%.

Check it out.

Check out his game log.

When he started to get some consistent playing time, he responded better. The problem is that Woody gave him too many DNPs and 5 minute games..

[AtLaS]

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Uhm... If Smith isn't moved to Sf... doesn't this problem still exist?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Marvin (the other choice) only shoot 10 3pters on the year?

Exactly, which is why I want to get rid of Marvin. Moving Smith to SF just ensures that this problem never gets fixed.

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Moreover, it depends on what Big we put on the floor. From my understanding Andersen can help spread the floor in the same manner than Lambeer did.

Although I hope he fares well, I wouldn't put too much hope into a 2nd round player who was drafted 6 years ago.

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Three point shooters are good to have, but they are not the end all.

So name one successful team that didn't have at least two 3pt shooters in their lineup. ONE.

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I don't think you can always count on our future 1 to not be able to score. I think he can score. Again, you have to give him some playing time.

On the season, Law shot 80% from the FT law. 40% from the field. I suppose that given more playing time, you wll see that FG% come up to about 45-46%.

I agree, but as of now Acie doesn't look like he'll ever be able to consistently knock down the three. He looks like a player who will have good quickness and ability to get to the basket with a good midrange game. But he won't be able to spread the floor unless he makes some SERIOUS strides.

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When he started to get some consistent playing time, he responded better. The problem is that Woody gave him too many DNPs and 5 minute games..

I agree completely, I'm one of the biggest Acie supporters here, but we still HAVE to get shooting from somewhere. And if Acie/Smith/Horford are all starters of the future, JJ is our only shooter. That means our 5th starter HAS to be able to shoot.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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I would take shots away from Bibby because he can't shoot more than half the time. Childress also can't hit an outside shot for the most part. You could also eliminate all of Josh Smith's jumpers.

Not that difficult to figure out. Have you not realized that the Hawks biggest problem is when JJ gets double teamed and Bibby can't hit a shot? I don't know why it's so hard to believe they need another shooter to come in and take some shots. This year's strategy led to a 37-45 record.

Be specific though. How many minutes should Andersen see per game? How many shots should he take a game? How many points should he average? And what do you expect him to shoot from the field?

Only JB has even remotely try to answer those questions. He expects Andersen to put up Zaza like numbers from 06 - 07.

I just want to get a feel for what you guys truly expect from Andersen. Specific things, not just general statements about his perceived role.

[AtLaS]

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I would take shots away from Bibby because he can't shoot more than half the time. Childress also can't hit an outside shot for the most part. You could also eliminate all of Josh Smith's jumpers.

Not that difficult to figure out. Have you not realized that the Hawks biggest problem is when JJ gets double teamed and Bibby can't hit a shot? I don't know why it's so hard to believe they need another shooter to come in and take some shots. This year's strategy led to a 37-45 record.

Be specific though. How many minutes should Andersen see per game? How many shots should he take a game? How many points should he average? And what do you expect him to shoot from the field?

Only JB has even remotely try to answer those questions. He expects Andersen to put up Zaza like numbers from 06 - 07.

I just want to get a feel for what you guys truly expect from Andersen. Specific things, not just general statements about his perceived role.

That depends. I don't look at it as people being 1st/2nd/3rd option etc.. I look at it as who has the best chance to score on any given possession. If they double JJ (likely) and leave Andersen open than I expect him to get more shots. If they single cover JJ than I expect him to get a less, but JJ to get more. It really depends from game to game, I don't think you can look at it from the "option" perspective. If a player is open they will get the shot.

Regardless, I think some of you are getting too excited about Andersen. Not that I'm not excited about him, but you can't put much hope into him. Anything he can give us is positive, but I wouldn't look at him as BEING the guy to spread the floor for us. He may be worse on defense than Zaza, he may suck at rebounding, he may make terrible decisions. The only thing we know for sure is that he can shoot the ball pretty well.